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Author Topic: High-Volume vs. High Intensity Question  (Read 10982 times)
Mr Nobody
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« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2012, 02:54:43 PM »

that's a good question, but i seriously don't think that it's possible to increase a muscle's size with endurance training

every single person that i knew who got bigger muscles increased thier training loads (with roids and without)

i've got frank Zane's training journals and there is something very interesting within them, and that is that from 77 til 80 his training poundages were basically the same and during that time he stepped on stage each year @ roughly 187

then in 82 he increased his training poundages and guess what? he stepped on stage @ bout 200 pounds


Good point. Will you be bigger benching 100lbs or 200?
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oldtimer1
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2012, 12:33:15 PM »

Every champ trains heavy early in his career. When Arnold was training for most of his Olympia wins he wasn't using max weights. He was training as heavy as he could using high sets. Even Casey Viator at his absoulute best was training for volume for the 82 Olympia doing about 16 sets a body part.

Look at two opposite training systems using chest as an example. On trainer uses the flat bench press for 2 sets of 6 reps for his work sets training to failure. Then after warm up he does 2 sets of 6 reps of barbell incline press. Lastly 2 sets of 10 reps for flies. That is hard training if you are pushing to failure. Next training cycle he does flat bench of 5 sets of 8 reps. Inclines 5 sets of 8 reps and flat flies for 5 sets of 12 reps. This trainer is also working brutally hard but it's comparing apples to oranges. Like comparing 5K training to 100 meter training. Both train hard but it's two different animals.


If HIt was the magic method of muscle increase you couldn't have the majority of bodybuilding champions training with volume. Also most of the champions who the HIT camp claims as theirs were volume trainers.
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tbombz
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2012, 03:00:36 PM »

you should be doing both in a cyclical fashion. you have to do low reps for a while to build up to be able to do high volume with that heavy weight. then after doing high volume with the weight you can bump up to low reps with an even heavier weight. use the new heavier weight untill you can use it high volume. then increase again. etc.

or in any other cyclical pattern (day by day, or week by week, or month by month ..3 month by 3 month.. etcc)

just stay away from failure

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oldtimer1
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« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2012, 05:11:10 AM »

Failure is a tool in lifting like many others. It has it's place. It shouldn't be what your program is based on. Power lifters and Olympic lifters who train for that single rep don't train to failure most of the time yet it's preached that bodybuilders should always go to failure?

Failure is relative. One rep to failure where the second isn't possible. 8 to 12 reps to failure in one set. Volume to failure where the you reach failure on the forth or fifth set.
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jpm101
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« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2012, 10:27:41 AM »

Again for the most part, I agree with TbombZ.

 Periodization still holds a strong contribution to successful training protocols. Including BB'ers, Pl'ers, Olympic lifters, strongmen training, etc. Once understanding that principle, and how your body (not what the Pro's, the video's, books, articles, etc want to feed you) reacts, adjust and recovers than progress should advance at a steady pace. The importance of taking a week (or two) off between the end of a periodization (anywhere from 8 to 12...for me anyway..even if still feeling I may be making some progress, I will take a week off and than to another workout phase) will become important also. Even if still making some progress at the end of 12 weeks

Interjecting an example of the periidzation plan I will usually follow on a yearly bases. With periodization, good to map out a long term plan for workouts.

1)   Heavy rack training. Partial reps, lockouts,starting positions, etc.  High intensity, 4 to 6 reps. Sometimes sets of 3's.

2)   GVT (10X10's) using the same weight on the bar the whole 100 (10X10) reps. High volume, moderate intensity

3)   General BB'ing. 8-12 reps reps, 2 to 3 exercises a body part. 60 seconds between sets, 90 seconds between exercises. Keeping a fast pace throughout. Volume will equate with high intensity, in this case, due to lighter weight used and the speed of the workout..

Going to failure is not an option, in any of these 3 training phases. Nor should it be, for most workouts.

 Increasing ones strength does not always carry with it, increased muscle mass. The ratio never seems to be the same for most guy's. The trend now, by  some very large and strong men, is to pay attention to the middle part of a exercise, rather than a full ROM. The TUT  (Time Under Tension..been around for decades) , in that middle range seems very important to them. Want the most work in the shortest period of time, so this can be a logical way to approach working out. Works for everybody..no, but can be worth a try for some who are stuck in the same old workout systems.  Nothing really works the same for everyone. Good Luck.

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dj181
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« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2012, 02:38:00 PM »

so are you're saying that one is able to increase muscle size without increasing training loads jpm?

sorry man, but i just don't buy it
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oldtimer1
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« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2012, 03:36:23 PM »

How do you define training loads? If you do 5 sets of 12 reps with 200lbs and increase it to 205 did you increase your training load? How about if you decreased the time it took to complete 5 sets of 12 reps?

If increasing the weight is the only way to increase size you better give up lifting after a year or two because for the most part you will hit your max. You can go for many years increasing your muscular endurance.

No one can increase the weight they use for years. If you max out with 200lbs in some exercise should you year after year cycle to increase that weight?
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dj181
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« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2012, 04:06:41 PM »

If you do 5 sets of 12 reps with 200lbs and increase it to 205 did you increase your training load?

yep, that is an increased training load

and are you saying that endurance training can increase the size of a muscle?

let's put it this way... when arnold's biceps went from 16 inches to 19.5 inches you can be damn sure that he was able to curl with a heavier barbell

and yeah, you are right when you say that one can't keep training with heavier and heavier training loads, as that is true

but the whole point is... once the training loads stop increasing then the muscle stops growing and getting bigger

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Mr Nobody
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« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2012, 05:11:11 PM »

Let's say you squat 150lbs then you squat say 250lbs for 10 reps will your legs be bigger? Getting stronger with good form produces bigger muscles any damn it's not rocket science a dude that squat 400 will have bigger legs than a dude squatting 200.
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« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2012, 07:41:47 PM »

The line between muscular strength and muscular endurance is very blurry when we are talking  about traditional bodybuilding rep ranges. For argument's sake we don't even have to count the reps. If you can continuously rep a weight for let's say 15 seconds and three months later you can do the same thing with 30 more pounds have you gotten stronger or has your muscular endurance increased?
Technically you have gotten stronger, but if we also throw in the fact that now you are able to rep your original weight for 25 seconds instead of just 15 because it fells lighter to you, your muscular endurance has gone up as well.
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« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2012, 08:39:01 PM »

dj181:  I'm not selling it, so you don't have to buy it. That's just the way it is. If your talking pure  BB'inbg, than your holding on to a very old concept, that does not always work the way you think it should. Maybe on paper, but not always in gym time. Don't know how long, or the lifting experience, you have but that should be fairly understandable. Good Luck.





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tbombz
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« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2012, 01:30:32 AM »



and are you saying that endurance training can increase the size of a muscle?







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dj181
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« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2012, 02:20:28 AM »








lol

that's not endurance training Cheesy

that dude is a SPRINT cyclist (short and very INTENSE bursts of training)

also, he does heavy POGRESSIVE OVERLOAD weight training

have you ever seen his full squatting vid?
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tbombz
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« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2012, 08:00:32 PM »

 Roll Eyes

do you know how many repetitions are involved in a sprint cyclists race and workouts ?


doesnt matter if he does weightlifting as well, the majority of his workouts are high rep , endurance workouts on his bicycle and his legs are massive, much bigger than most amateur bodybuilders.
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tbombz
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« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2012, 08:05:34 PM »

i suppose a track athlete who runs the 100 yard dash isnt doing endurance training either? 

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« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2012, 08:07:41 AM »

Short dashes (40 to 220's) can be a good example of TUT training. The most effective/intense work load in the shortest period of time. One reason that the quads and ham's are exceptional on these athletes.Tthey also spend quite an amount of time on stretches, including upper body. Most train with weights, as do marathon runners but not the way one would suspect. All train with a stopwatch.

Though the dash event it's self can be termed short and intense, the training does include stamina  (strength plus endurance) focus. And quite a lot of it.  Not quite, but something near doing 10X10's (GVT) with 30-60 seconds between sets (personal note..which I have done in the past, mostly for football off season workouts).

Just to note, endurance training BB or other weight workouts, does not build much in the way of newer muscle mass.  The only exception may be the PHA system, which is probably the better way of increasing stamina, strength and some size. Good Luck.

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dj181
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« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2012, 10:46:09 AM »

Just to note, endurance training BB or other weight workouts, does not build much in the way of newer muscle mass.  The only exception may be the PHA system, which is probably the better way of increasing stamina, strength and some size. Good Luck.



exactly, OVERLOAD builds new muscle
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tbombz
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« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2012, 11:00:03 AM »

exactly, OVERLOAD builds new muscle
pick and choose the words you want to accept and ignore the stuff you dont.  its your life man. you can choose to tihnk whatever you want. but the facts remain that athletes who do high rep training like sprinters of all kinds develop muscle size and strength (and more so than you have).

how many reps do you think are involved in the 100 yard dash ?  50-75 probably.   

doing higher rep bodybuilding training in the 10-20 rep zone while using good form and squeezing the muscle is a great addition to mid rep range work (6-10) and throwing in some heavy work (1-5) is also good as well.

you CAN build muscle doing higher reps and in FACT youll build muscle better by incorporating all the rep schemes instead of just focusing on one or the other.
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« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2012, 11:34:03 AM »

 Shocked
pick and choose the words you want to accept and ignore the stuff you dont.  its your life man. you can choose to tihnk whatever you want. but the facts remain that athletes who do high rep training like sprinters of all kinds develop muscle size and strength (and more so than you have).

how many reps do you think are involved in the 100 yard dash ?  50-75 probably.   

doing higher rep bodybuilding training in the 10-20 rep zone while using good form and squeezing the muscle is a great addition to mid rep range work (6-10) and throwing in some heavy work (1-5) is also good as well.

you CAN build muscle doing higher reps and in FACT youll build muscle better by incorporating all the rep schemes instead of just focusing on one or the other.

You are drawing the wrong paralells in your comparison between weight training and sprinting. A 100 meter sprint lasts about 10 seconds, that's the only number that matters. Total duration of an all out effort, not the amount of strides that are taken. That same 10 seconds will be roughly the same amount of time it would take you to perform a 2-4 rep all out heavy set. Or perhaps seeing how many reps you can get in 10 seconds with a lighter weight by going as fast you can, which will force you to make every single rep as fast and EXPLOSIVE as possible like a sprint.
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dj181
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« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2012, 12:12:48 PM »

you can do sets of 3 reps or sets of 25 reps, but in order to get bigger muscles YOU MUST increase the training loads within whatever rep scheme that you choose

if you go from curling a 50 pound barbell for 25 reps til failure to curling a 100 pound barbell for 25 reps til failure then you can be damn sure that you will have bigger biceps
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tbombz
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« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2012, 12:48:00 PM »

Yev, your input, while basically accurate, isnt helping the cause of trying to teach dj181 and those who might follow his suggestions that a mix of rep ranges is what works best and that strength training is great for strength but bodybuilding is something slightly different than strength training and ones strength should not be the sole gauge of progress but should be second to other factors such as muscle size and the mirror.
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Mr Nobody
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« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2012, 03:55:10 PM »

you can do sets of 3 reps or sets of 25 reps, but in order to get bigger muscles YOU MUST increase the training loads within whatever rep scheme that you choose

if you go from curling a 50 pound barbell for 25 reps til failure to curling a 100 pound barbell for 25 reps til failure then you can be damn sure that you will have bigger biceps
X2. if you get stronger you get bigger FACT.
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tbombz
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« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2012, 05:22:59 PM »

X2. if you get stronger you get bigger FACT.
NOPE

if you get bigger, you get stronger. thats a fact. more muscle = more leverage.

but its possible to get stronger without getting bigger. you can gain strength without increasing muscle fiber size or quantity. you can gain strength by improving neural connections within the muscle. and low rep training primarily does that, not cause hypertrophy of the fibers.



guys who focus on strength alone are not, on average, as muscular as guys who do a higher volume, more form oriented, bodybuilding style of workout.

 take a look at all the top powerlifters. then take a look at all the top bodybuilders. both of them use tons of drugs, but one of them is a hell of a lot more muscular than the other. reason? TRAINING.

 bodybuilding training > strength training for muscle size.  
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« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2012, 10:11:01 PM »

NOPE

if you get bigger, you get stronger. thats a fact. more muscle = more leverage.

Yes, but you really don't know what comes first. Did the muscle first get stronger and then got bigger? Or did the muscle get bigger and is stronger as the result . You don't know the answer to this for a fact, nor do I for that matter. What I do know is that the muscle will not get bigger or stronger without a proper stimulus which happens during training. And since BB, powerlifting, and OLY lifting training stimulus taxes a muscle's strength capacity first and foremost to various degrees, I am willing to make a hypothesis that a muscle gets stronger first and foremost.

 

but its possible to get stronger without getting bigger. you can gain strength without increasing muscle fiber size or quantity. you can gain strength by improving neural connections within the muscle. and low rep training primarily does that, not cause hypertrophy of the fibers.

Yes, but you do reach a point where you become so neurologically efficient at a movement that continued progress requires an increase in muscle size. On top of that, OLY lifters tend to do most of their work in  low rep ranges yet attain quad development on par with bodybuilders.


guys who focus on strength alone are not, on average, as muscular as guys who do a higher volume, more form oriented, bodybuilding style of workout.


 take a look at all the top powerlifters. then take a look at all the top bodybuilders. both of them use tons of drugs, but one of them is a hell of a lot more muscular than the other. reason? TRAINING.

Yes, but you can't discount two very important factors:

1. They don't use identical drug stacks. Yes they both use a good amount, but they don't use the exact same compounds in the exact same ratios.

2. Geared powerlifting (equipped) is not just about RAW strength. It's about knowing how to get the most out of your equipment and training accordingly. The    numbers you see being put up at a geared meet are very different than what is being done in the gym before the gear comes on.

If you look at the powerlifters from the 70's, a lot of them looked like offseason bodybuilders.

bodybuilding training > strength training for muscle size.  

Strength training builds a solid base, bodybuilding training adds the finishing touches.
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Yev33
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« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2012, 10:17:19 PM »

Some old school powerlifters:


* doug young.jpg (8.71 KB, 215x235 - viewed 851 times.)

* Doug-Young1-287x399.jpg (39.97 KB, 287x399 - viewed 1076 times.)

* Kirk Karwoski.jpg (15.25 KB, 300x208 - viewed 1542 times.)

* kirk.jpg (90.05 KB, 784x553 - viewed 932 times.)
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