is training with anything above casual-moderate intensity while natural a waste?

[chaos]

Hey Chaos...when the fuck you going to stop monkeying around with that P-90x workout and lift some real weights?

Feeling pretty good this week, upped it to the Insanity workout, looking forward to my tshirt.

[Heywood]

First, some of us are simply better at reps than others.  I could "out-rep" guys with 225 who were quite a bit stronger than me on the bench.   Why that is, I don't know.

A lot of lifters believe there is some "formula" that if you can bench or squat "x" for 1 rep or 5 reps, then you can bench or squat "y" reps for 20 reps.  I've never seen that in practice.  IMO, that's like saying if I can run a mile in "x" time, I can run 5 miles in "y" time.  We both know that isn't correct.  So no, I DO NOT buy into an extrapolation formula.  I'm not saying it won't work among lifters with similiar abilities.  Just saying it isn't universal for everyone.  Believe whatever you like, that's my opinion based on what I've seen.

I agree with you regarding competing against guys using stuff, especially in drug-tested contests. 

Drugs are medicine - if you're ill or badly injured, maybe they're needed.  But if you're healthy, count your blessings.

[chaos]

No point in doing so many reps.
Fuck that noise.

[Nomad]

First, some of us are simply better at reps than others.  I could "out-rep" guys with 225 who were quite a bit stronger than me on the bench.   Why that is, I don't know.

A lot of lifters believe there is some "formula" that if you can bench or squat "x" for 1 rep or 5 reps, then you can bench or squat "y" reps for 20 reps.  I've never seen that in practice.  IMO, that's like saying if I can run a mile in "x" time, I can run 5 miles in "y" time.  We both know that isn't correct.  So no, I DO NOT buy into an extrapolation formula.  I'm not saying it won't work among lifters with similiar abilities.  Just saying it isn't universal for everyone.  Believe whatever you like, that's my opinion based on what I've seen.

I agree with you regarding competing against guys using stuff, especially in drug-tested contests.  

Drugs are medicine - if you're ill or badly injured, maybe they're needed.  But if you're healthy, count your blessings.

If you bring up your rep numbers generally your 1RM numbers will suffer. If you focus on your 1RM number then usually you'll struggle to rep more then 12 around your 70% max.

[Krankenstein]

Drugs are medicine - if you're ill or badly injured, maybe they're needed.  But if you're healthy, count your blessings.

FFS, you are one of 'those' guys aren't you?  Self righteous and pompous natural.  As I said, never did act like that when I was natural.  I still don't.  People can put in their bodies what they want.  Now, making fun of them for what they look like or what they have to do in order to maintain that look; well thats a different story.

[MCWAY]

Lift heavy shit, eat, sleep, repeat.

Wtf is the problem here?

The problem is some people use "natural" as an excuse to train like a wimp and eat like a concentration camp victim.

[VladimirVersic]

Why would you go to the gym just to train with "moderate" intensity?
Does everyone without a good physique use being natural as an excuse?
If you going to go to the gym at all, make it worth your while.  Heavy or light, doesn't matter as long as it is intense.

This. Serge Nubret used to say that if a guy claims he is natural and has a good physique, look how he trains if he is not a hard trainer he is not natural.
For myself i always go hard, every workout.

[Jaime]

no you ownt hit that natural.

not without ever doing a couple cycles.

that is about my size and im geneticaly blessed and have done the most ridiculous cycles before.

I think i can. My diet has been terrible for years and i have barely trained legs. Just interval training most recently.
 

How tall are you Gele, i thought you were about 5'8.

[Krankenstein]

This. Serge Nubret used to say that if a guy claims he is natural and has a good physique, look how he trains if he is not a hard trainer he is not natural.
For myself i always go hard, every workout.

So, what are you saying?  You are Serge Nubret?

[Mawse]

yes, that's what is discussed in the video around 22 minutes

rippetoe wants to be like "well for beginners squatting 3 times a week is best herp derp"

and the other guys go like "if i can get the same results with 1 time a week....why would you do that"

Something the 'squat every day' 'tards forget is that joints have a finite lifespan and will break down eventually if you abuse them enough. Why put a ton of milage on your body for absolutely no benefit other than to prove how Hardcore you are?.. idiots.

PNS good to see you're realizing a natural will always be either a twink, a lardass or a Liar

[Krankenstein]

PNS good to see you're realizing a natural will always be either a twink, a lardass or a Liar

Wow....how stupid you are

[Ropo]

^^^^
What this guy said. Anyone saying taht naturals should train their asses off is fucking retarded.

What that guy said, is total bullshit. Problem with this matter is that you guys doesn't understand it is all about time. If you use drugs, you can literally wait muscle growth day by day. If you don't it takes much longer time. What you can get with drugs in ten years, takes more than 20 years to make without drugs. That is all. I have been training 15 years, never used anything but protein powders and stuff like that, vitamins etc, and muscles grow. When I start, my weight was skinny 56 kilos/123lb with 5'10" height and 6% bodyfat. My current weight is 95kg/209lb with 12% bodyfat. 15 years and 68lb more muscle mass. That is only double what Marko Savolainen has been growing in one year with only one kidney. Natural builder can't wait fast results, because there isn't going to be none. That's why you guys are so disappointed. So was I, first 10 years. It was mostly wasted time, I didn't eat right, I try to do too much and I try to lift too heavy. Then there was pause of few years, and I start all over again. Now I put my ego aside, and been training my body. Big difference. When I start training again, I decide to use as good form as it is possible with my limitations, and same with the range of motion. I have been able to crush all my previous records by doing that, gain more muscle by doing that, and I am in better health by doing that. 0 defects by training. What comes to that weight, ­�2/3 of it is result from last five years. Good diet with lot of protein etc., heavy weights and smart training do the trick. But it still take years. What I recommend based my own experience is this:

1. At least 3 training days per week, I prefer to combine bodyparts like back/ shoulders & traps, chest and arms, and last I work out legs. Cardio and warm up, then abs and lower back before each training with lots of reps.
2. When you have done warm up, go for the muscle group with long warm-up set, stretch, and 2 to 3 sets with hard loads, but maintaining form and ROM.
3. Stretch. Before and after training, and between the sets.
4. Every fourth week should be "light week" with moderate weights and without any pushing the limits.
5. Use variations, super sets, giant sets, negatives, rest-pause, spotter, BUT NO CHEATS. Learn to do sets up to the real and complete failure.
6. Eat, sleep, take it easy while not training. I prefer to use Monday, Wednesday and Friday for training, everything else is for recovery.
7. Optimize use of time. If you stay at the gym more than 1.5 hours from arrive to exit, you are doing something wrong. Too much pause between sets, try harder.
8. It is really this simple. Everyone who has really try this, has realize that it really works.

So, what's the catch? YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO PUT YOUR EGO ASIDE, AND RIGHT WAY TO DO THE EXCERCISES.  That is too much for most of you.

[VladimirVersic]

So, what are you saying?  You are Serge Nubret?

Where did i say that, are you trolling?

[anabolichalo]

Wow....how stupid you are

he speaks the truth

[anabolichalo]

What that guy said, is total bullshit. Problem with this matter is that you guys doesn't understand it is all about time. If you use drugs, you can literally wait muscle growth day by day. If you don't it takes much longer time. What you can get with drugs in ten years, takes more than 20 years to make without drugs. That is all. I have been training 15 years, never used anything but protein powders and stuff like that, vitamins etc, and muscles grow. When I start, my weight was skinny 56 kilos/123lb with 5'10" height and 6% bodyfat. My current weight is 95kg/209lb with 12% bodyfat. 15 years and 68lb more muscle mass. That is only double what Marko Savolainen has been growing in one year with only one kidney. Natural builder can't wait fast results, because there isn't going to be none. That's why you guys are so disappointed. So was I, first 10 years. It was mostly wasted time, I didn't eat right, I try to do too much and I try to lift too heavy. Then there was pause of few years, and I start all over again. Now I put my ego aside, and been training my body. Big difference. When I start training again, I decide to use as good form as it is possible with my limitations, and same with the range of motion. I have been able to crush all my previous records by doing that, gain more muscle by doing that, and I am in better health by doing that. 0 defects by training. What comes to that weight, ­�2/3 of it is result from last five years. Good diet with lot of protein etc., heavy weights and smart training do the trick. But it still take years. What I recommend based my own experience is this:

1. At least 3 training days per week, I prefer to combine bodyparts like back/ shoulders & traps, chest and arms, and last I work out legs. Cardio and warm up, then abs and lower back before each training with lots of reps.
2. When you have done warm up, go for the muscle group with long warm-up set, stretch, and 2 to 3 sets with hard loads, but maintaining form and ROM.
3. Stretch. Before and after training, and between the sets.
4. Every fourth week should be "light week" with moderate weights and without any pushing the limits.
5. Use variations, super sets, giant sets, negatives, rest-pause, spotter, BUT NO CHEATS. Learn to do sets up to the real and complete failure.
6. Eat, sleep, take it easy while not training. I prefer to use Monday, Wednesday and Friday for training, everything else is for recovery.
7. Optimize use of time. If you stay at the gym more than 1.5 hours from arrive to exit, you are doing something wrong. Too much pause between sets, try harder.
8. It is really this simple. Everyone who has really try this, has realize that it really works.

So, what's the catch? YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO PUT YOUR EGO ASIDE, AND RIGHT WAY TO DO THE EXCERCISES.  That is too much for most of you.

95kg 12% bf is not realistic for typical height, you are either very tall, fat bloated and delusiona, lying or a combination thereof

[Krankenstein]

he speaks the truth

The truth of what?  Love the generalization of "naturals are twinks".     Have we seen what a massive build?  So tired of naturals complaining about how awesome they are because they dont use, and then you have the guys like you, Mawse, etc. that come across like you aren't a "real bodybuilder" because you don't use.

[chaos]

Lift heavy shit, put it down,  repeat.

[LetItRock]

To original question, why don't you try it out. Give yourself certain timeframe, no less than 3 months. Train high intensity if you can, if you have to cruise, cruise. Even guys on gear have to blast and cruise.

Make your diet top priority.

Measure everything.

Once your predetermined time is up, evaluate yourself. This way you will learn your body better.

At that point, you can try another round as natural with lessons learn or you can choose gear route.

Truth is everybody is different, instead of being hypothetical, just try the practical route.

[anabolichalo]

The truth of what?  Love the generalization of "naturals are twinks".     Have we seen what a massive build?  So tired of naturals complaining about how awesome they are because they dont use, and then you have the guys like you, Mawse, etc. that come across like you aren't a "real bodybuilder" because you don't use.

you are " preaching to the choir " as they say

guys on the juice are in fact the real bodybuilders, the ones who are fearless/ruthless in their approach to building muscle



naturals are either not willing to take risks, can live with a swimmer's body (doesnt have to be bad if you can accept this), or delusional

[Big Dicked Bob]

knock out a couple of upright rows every full moon

[Ropo]

95kg 12% bf is not realistic for typical height, you are either very tall, fat bloated and delusiona, lying or a combination thereof

Well, if you didn't know, name of the sport is bodybuilding, which means that your muscles grow by lifting weights. As I say, I am 178 centimeters(5 foot 10 inches) tall, I am muscular but not even near the competition levels. What comes to your comment, it shows only complete ignorance about the matter. As I say, it is too much for most of you guys, and you identify with that bunch right away. This is exactly what I mean. You silly bitches compare all others to yourselves and can't understand how smart guys grow, and stupid bitches like you, doesn't. Don't blame me, look at the mirror. If you look like shit, it is your own fault. Learn the trade, work out, improve. Simply as fuck, but too difficult for you to understand.

[chaos]

To original question, why don't you try it out. Give yourself certain timeframe, no less than 3 months. Train high intensity if you can, if you have to cruise, cruise. Even guys on gear have to blast and cruise.

Make your diet top priority.

Measure everything.

Once your predetermined time is up, evaluate yourself. This way you will learn your body better.

At that point, you can try another round as natural with lessons learn or you can choose gear route.

Truth is everybody is different, instead of being hypothetical, just try the practical route.

Your contribution is appreciated, LickonCock.

[Krankenstein]

you are " preaching to the choir " as they say

guys on the juice are in fact the real bodybuilders, the ones who are fearless/ruthless in their approach to building muscle

naturals are either not willing to take risks, can live with a swimmer's body (doesnt have to be bad if you can accept this), or delusional

you are " preaching to the choir " as they say

guys on the juice are in fact the real bodybuilders, the ones who are fearless/ruthless in their approach to building muscle

naturals are either not willing to take risks, can live with a swimmer's body (doesnt have to be bad if you can accept this), or delusional

So, I am not a real bodybuilder because I never took anything during my 25yrs competing?  I became a WNBF pro, but still am nto a real bodybuilder?  Hmmmmm.  Not real clear on the logic.

I wouldn't describe guys on juice as being fearless or ruthless.  I would say that many are delusional.  Maybe not the same way a natural is, but delusional none-the-less.  How many of guys who are on the shit think they have what it takes to look like Ronnie or Dorian?  Yet those same guys five years later are probably running more shit than either of those two...yet don't even look half as good.  Let alone can't even win or place in the top 5 of nationals.  Talk about delusional.  I think that there is some sort of acceptance of risk when it comes to using.  You know the line you have to cross.  You know the health risks that are potentially there, yet you decide what is more important.

Naturals are delusional in that they think that the harder they work, the more anal they are with the diet, the more meticulous they are with timing of everything else in their lives...they will add 5 - 10lbs of muscle a year.  Which delusional you want to be is the question.

This may seem like melting, but it gets old hearing how naturals have "swimmers" bodies.  Geezus.  Serious?  I could then say that all drug users are fat bloated pigs with all the shit they run.  Thats not the case is it?

I will state again, I don't give a rats ass if you run 200mg/wk or 2Kmg/wk.  If you have a great work ethic and what you are doing is getting you the results you want...fantastic.  Don't run someone down if they choose to use or not use.  Intensity is relative.  I trained balls out every time I went into the gym.  In my opinion, thats probably contributed to the problems I have today (joint pain, tendonitis, etc.)  Who's to say that someone out there, user or not, is working harder than me?

[NEXUS 6]

What that guy said, is total bullshit. Problem with this matter is that you guys doesn't understand it is all about time. If you use drugs, you can literally wait muscle growth day by day. If you don't it takes much longer time. What you can get with drugs in ten years, takes more than 20 years to make without drugs. That is all. I have been training 15 years, never used anything but protein powders and stuff like that, vitamins etc, and muscles grow. When I start, my weight was skinny 56 kilos/123lb with 5'10" height and 6% bodyfat. My current weight is 95kg/209lb with 12% bodyfat. 15 years and 68lb more muscle mass. That is only double what Marko Savolainen has been growing in one year with only one kidney. Natural builder can't wait fast results, because there isn't going to be none. That's why you guys are so disappointed. So was I, first 10 years. It was mostly wasted time, I didn't eat right, I try to do too much and I try to lift too heavy. Then there was pause of few years, and I start all over again. Now I put my ego aside, and been training my body. Big difference. When I start training again, I decide to use as good form as it is possible with my limitations, and same with the range of motion. I have been able to crush all my previous records by doing that, gain more muscle by doing that, and I am in better health by doing that. 0 defects by training. What comes to that weight, ­�2/3 of it is result from last five years. Good diet with lot of protein etc., heavy weights and smart training do the trick. But it still take years. What I recommend based my own experience is this:

1. At least 3 training days per week, I prefer to combine bodyparts like back/ shoulders & traps, chest and arms, and last I work out legs. Cardio and warm up, then abs and lower back before each training with lots of reps.
2. When you have done warm up, go for the muscle group with long warm-up set, stretch, and 2 to 3 sets with hard loads, but maintaining form and ROM.
3. Stretch. Before and after training, and between the sets.
4. Every fourth week should be "light week" with moderate weights and without any pushing the limits.
5. Use variations, super sets, giant sets, negatives, rest-pause, spotter, BUT NO CHEATS. Learn to do sets up to the real and complete failure.
6. Eat, sleep, take it easy while not training. I prefer to use Monday, Wednesday and Friday for training, everything else is for recovery.
7. Optimize use of time. If you stay at the gym more than 1.5 hours from arrive to exit, you are doing something wrong. Too much pause between sets, try harder.
8. It is really this simple. Everyone who has really try this, has realize that it really works.

So, what's the catch? YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO PUT YOUR EGO ASIDE, AND RIGHT WAY TO DO THE EXCERCISES.  That is too much for most of you.

Let's pare this novel down a little, and inject some truth.

You can get in 6 months with gear, what you will NEVER get training natural

no matter how dedicated and methodical you are, you won't get as lean and as ripped as someone on gear...it's physically impossible

[Ropo]

Let's pare this novel down a little, and inject some truth.

You can get in 6 months with gear, what you will NEVER get training natural

no matter how dedicated and methodical you are, you won't get as lean and as ripped as someone on gear...it's physically impossible

And you prove your claims with exactly what facts? Point out one (1) real world fact which proves and back up your claims, and I stop calling you bitch, bitch.