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Author Topic: CBS 60 Minutes: Born good? Babies help unlock the origins of morality  (Read 1558 times)
loco
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« on: November 19, 2012, 04:49:31 AM »

Born good? Babies help unlock the origins of morality
November 18, 2012 4:53 PM

"Can infants tell right from wrong? And if so, how would you know? Come to Yale's baby lab. Lesley Stahl reports."
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50135408n

Conclusion(according to the study):  We are born immoral, selfish, hateful, little bigots.  Morality is learned.     Undecided
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bigbobs
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2012, 01:59:51 PM »

Born good? Babies help unlock the origins of morality
November 18, 2012 4:53 PM

"Can infants tell right from wrong? And if so, how would you know? Come to Yale's baby lab. Lesley Stahl reports."
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50135408n

Conclusion(according to the study):  We are born immoral, selfish, hateful, little bigots.  Morality is learned.     Undecided

What does this have to do with religion?
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loco
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2012, 02:01:45 PM »

What does this have to do with religion?

You are right, morality has nothing to do with religion.    Roll Eyes
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2012, 02:36:00 PM »

He is trying to prove 'original sin' and therefore the need for mankind to be sinful from birth and for salvation through Jesus Christ  Cool. Christian doctrine teaches that all mankind is carrying the sin of Adam and Eve and it ties into the Christian doctrines relating to Jesus having to die on the cross, saving mankind, etc...

Contrary to what Islam teaches, that all children are born pure and that they are corrupted by their parents/environment/etc...

I remember in school studying this (it was a sociology class actually in a christian high school) and yes they tried to promote the idea that we are all borner sinners but we were exposed to differing ideologies and philosophies relating to this notion.

Personally I have come to agree with the fact that we are born pure, but that is our parents and environment that corrupts us. Not to say that people cannot revert back to a state of purity yes we can if we have the will to be good after being shown good.

There are studies on both spectrums, however lets be realistic. A baby is born with a clean slate and it absorbs information around it. It's far more realistic. Furthermore where is the justice in someone being held accountable on the account of someone else's actions. If someone murdered in the past why would YOU be held accountable for that murder someone else did? Etc... Doesn't matter if it's your father or grandfather or whoever, its not your action.

That's why Islam makes far more sense. Islam teaches accountability and goes with simple common sense, we are born with a clean slate when we come into this world.
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loco
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2012, 02:48:51 PM »

He is trying to prove 'original sin' and therefore the need for mankind to be sinful from birth and for salvation through Jesus Christ  Cool. Christian doctrine teaches that all mankind is carrying the sin of Adam and Eve and it ties into the Christian doctrines relating to Jesus having to die on the cross, saving mankind, etc...

Contrary to what Islam teaches, that all children are born pure and that they are corrupted by their parents/environment/etc...

I remember in school studying this (it was a sociology class actually in a christian high school) and yes they tried to promote the idea that we are all borner sinners but we were exposed to differing ideologies and philosophies relating to this notion.

Personally I have come to agree with the fact that we are born pure, but that is our parents and environment that corrupts us. Not to say that people cannot revert back to a state of purity yes we can if we have the will to be good after being shown good.

There are studies on both spectrums, however lets be realistic. A baby is born with a clean slate and it absorbs information around it. It's far more realistic. Furthermore where is the justice in someone being held accountable on the account of someone else's actions. If someone murdered in the past why would YOU be held accountable for that murder someone else did? Etc... Doesn't matter if it's your father or grandfather or whoever, its not your action.

That's why Islam makes far more sense. Islam teaches accountability and goes with simple common sense, we are born with a clean slate when we come into this world.

Actually, that's not even what I was thinking.  The first thing that came to mind when I saw that video was people who say that all humans are basically good, and I also thought about this:

Genesis 8:21
The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

I personally believe babies who die go straight to Heaven.  
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2012, 03:09:56 PM »

^That's quite contradictory isn't it? God destroyed many afterwards.

We Muslims also believe that children before puberty if they die no matter what go to heaven. They aren't held accountable for their deeds until puberty. So if they are truly evil that would not make much sense they are not being held accountable until after a certain point when they start making serious decisions and choices.

Otherwise everyone would go to hell regardless EXCEPT if they accept the Christian doctrine of salvation which therefore doesn't add up. So then you would have a personal belief that contradicts Christian doctrine but is in harmony with Islamic doctrine.
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loco
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2012, 03:22:11 PM »

^That's quite contradictory isn't it? God destroyed many afterwards.

We Muslims also believe that children before puberty if they die no matter what go to heaven. They aren't held accountable for their deeds until puberty. So if they are truly evil that would not make much sense they are not being held accountable until after a certain point when they start making serious decisions and choices.

Otherwise everyone would go to hell regardless EXCEPT if they accept the Christian doctrine of salvation which therefore doesn't add up. So then you would have a personal belief that contradicts Christian doctrine but is in harmony with Islamic doctrine.

So you, a Muslim, don't believe that verse in Genesis is from God?
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2012, 03:32:00 PM »

So you, a Muslim, don't believe that verse in Genesis is from God?

I don't believe the bible is the word of God.

I have come to understand that the bible is in fact many books combined and selectively chosen by past and recent clergies (recent as in the Roman Church). The word bible comes from the Greek Biblios. Book.

The word bible itself is not in the bible. The qur'an refers to the Jews and Christians as the "people of the book" and rightly so.

The old testament has selectively chosen works which refer to the torah. There are other works called apocrypha that are not included but scriptural.

Likewise with the new testament, many different books put together and as a bonus many letters which were written by none other than Saul of Tarsus aka "st. paul". That's why the various letters of NT are such elusive rants about Paul himself and his attempts to convert people into his new teachings. Once again there are other scriptural works  that are not included in the new testament, more apocryphal works. I've had the opportunity to read some of the translated apocryphal works as well. Often times more than not. Guess what's more common? The lack of trinity.

Thus the bible really.. is an accumulation of many different books, scriptures and letters. Which include sayings, writings and narratives of: historians, scribes, prophets, clergy, God, etc...

It is not the word of God. Hence the many contradictions. Certainly it contains recordings of the revelations from God, but not all of it is from God.

Furthermore there many flavours of the bible. Not just translations. Did you know ethiopian church includes a book that you may not be aware of? How about catholics vs protestant bible? Can you tell me which works are included or not included? I bet you were not aware of this.
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2012, 06:21:27 PM »

Born good? Babies help unlock the origins of morality
November 18, 2012 4:53 PM

"Can infants tell right from wrong? And if so, how would you know? Come to Yale's baby lab. Lesley Stahl reports."
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50135408n

Conclusion(according to the study):  We are born immoral, selfish, hateful, little bigots.  Morality is learned.     Undecided

Such studies only have meaning once the words 'moral', 'morality', 'immoral' and so forth are defined. Since this study does nothing of the sort, it has no meaning.


There are studies on both spectrums, however lets be realistic. A baby is born with a clean slate and it absorbs information around it. It's far more realistic.


I don't think it is realistic at all to argue that baby minds are blank slates. All babies acquire language despite a relative dearth of stimulus, and acquire them in pretty much the same way. Since stimulus isn't enough to force such universality and uniformity on baby minds, it seems there is something else at work, viz., human babies have some inborn capacity for language acquisition that unfolds the same in each (this is called the 'Poverty of stimulus' argument). That being the case, it's reasonable to suppose that other parts of our nature are due to the unfolding of inborn mechanisms as well, meaning we aren't blank slates in the slightest (the reason we can't grow wings has nothing to do with stimulus, and similarly for many other parts of our nature).

Furthermore where is the justice in someone being held accountable on the account of someone else's actions. If someone murdered in the past why would YOU be held accountable for that murder someone else did? Etc... Doesn't matter if it's your father or grandfather or whoever, its not your action.

I agree with you -- the idea of punishment for the actions of a previous generation is stupid, and Islam makes more sense to the extent that it eschew such punishment (I wouldn't know so will have to take your word for it).
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2012, 06:50:47 PM »

The video is food for thought, but the experiment is ridiculously lacking in controlling of variables.

The babies might reach for, or stare at, a stuffed animal because its nose is shinier, or any of a million other explanations. There is no evidence to support that they even remember the stuffed animal from before. It surprises me that someone calling herself a scientist would even posit this as research.

Of course, religion is simple mindlessness so that we don't need to do experiments at all. It's funny how a religious person will agree with science when it coincides with their worldview, and then reject it when it doesn't as "part of god's plan".
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2012, 01:42:40 PM »

^That's quite contradictory isn't it? God destroyed many afterwards.

We Muslims also believe that children before puberty if they die no matter what go to heaven. They aren't held accountable for their deeds until puberty. So if they are truly evil that would not make much sense they are not being held accountable until after a certain point when they start making serious decisions and choices.

Otherwise everyone would go to hell regardless EXCEPT if they accept the Christian doctrine of salvation which therefore doesn't add up. So then you would have a personal belief that contradicts Christian doctrine but is in harmony with Islamic doctrine.

Is this why they make them suicide bombers so young?
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