Author Topic: Is Tom Brady The Best Football Player Ever? (Read 91005 times)

Bevo · « **Reply #250 on:** January 14, 2013, 12:25:49 AM »

Quote from: tu_holmes on January 13, 2013, 09:50:00 PM

Elway?

Another Elway over Montana person... Must be a Denver fan.

That's crazy talk.

Montana's first superbowl win was without Rice and Craig you know.

I agree with u elway over Montana

King Shizzo · « **Reply #251 on:** January 14, 2013, 05:28:35 AM »

Quote from: Groink on January 13, 2013, 10:15:22 PM

It's an interesting question.

One common trait all of the great Qb's of the past had was they were mobile QBs who could throw on the run....and they had to because defenses weren't handcuffed like they are now.

But Brady plays against bigger, stronger faster players who hit harder. A modern day safety is the same size, is faster and hits harder than a linebacker from back then. offensive and defensive lines average over 300 pounds,and they are more athletic.. back then you had a few guys that size.

offenses score more now, but it's not like Brady has one set of rules and the rest of the league has another ...and he puts up more points than anyone. My point is yes it's an offensive league, and scoring is up, but he would still score points if it weren't, just not as many..he would still be insanely accurate,strong armed, smart and super-competitive in any era. But he would definitely take many more clean hits. it's all relative.

Ang Groink finally joins the darkside..............

liberty · « **Reply #252 on:** January 14, 2013, 05:30:48 AM »

The Patriots' quarterback added to a string of postseason success that stretches back more than a decade, earning his 17th playoff win to break a tie with his boyhood idol, Joe Montana, for most by a quarterback.

240 is Back · « **Reply #253 on:** January 14, 2013, 05:51:54 AM »

If you gave montana today's rules, he'd be INCREDIBLE.

if you put brady back in the early 90s... where defenders coudl mug jerry rice on EVERY play, he woudln't be nearly as productive.

snx · « **Reply #254 on:** January 14, 2013, 05:54:23 AM »

Here's an interesting stat.

Look at the season-leading QB ratings of the past 20 years. Since the days of Steve Young and the west-coast offense, the league has had its rating winner at a score of +100 (Young was a freak at pacing the QB rating scores in the league for his entire career, give or take).

Go back in time to the 70s and early 80s, and there maybe 2-4 years every decade where the league's best QB had a rating about 100.

Begs the question: do QBs chase the stat regardless of relevance to winning, or is the stat relevant, and in fact, the league has changed so much in the past 20 years so as to allow freakishly high QB ratings (like Rogers, Manning and Brady in their record-setting seasons).

The stat is weighted to average passing yards per attempt (among other stats, or course).

240 is Back · « **Reply #255 on:** January 14, 2013, 05:58:41 AM »

"Begs the question: do QBs chase the stat regardless of relevance to winning, or is the stat relevant, and in fact, the league has changed so much in the past 20 years so as to allow freakishly high QB ratings (like Rogers, Manning and Brady in their record-setting seasons). "

I think this is the case. you watch old games - they are VERY physical... wide recivers getting punched and slapped before they get free every time.

today's pass interference/holding rules would have Montana scoring 52 points every game... moving downt he field would be a breeze. And Rice? His stats would be INSANE today.

oldtimer1 · « **Reply #256 on:** January 14, 2013, 06:31:47 AM »

Can't compare different positions. Among quarterbacks he is one of the best of all times. Like someone mentioned before the rules made the NFL a passing league. Quarterbacks in the past didn't have untouched receivers like they do now.

Irongrip400 · « **Reply #257 on:** January 14, 2013, 06:53:58 AM »

Quote from: Groink on January 13, 2013, 10:15:22 PM

It's an interesting question.

One common trait all of the great Qb's of the past had was they were mobile QBs who could throw on the run....and they had to because defenses weren't handcuffed like they are now.

But Brady plays against bigger, stronger faster players who hit harder. A modern day safety is the same size, is faster and hits harder than a linebacker from back then. offensive and defensive lines average over 300 pounds,and they are more athletic.. back then you had a few guys that size.

offenses score more now, but it's not like Brady has one set of rules and the rest of the league has another ...and he puts up more points than anyone. My point is yes it's an offensive league, and scoring is up, but he would still score points if it weren't, just not as many..he would still be insanely accurate,strong armed, smart and super-competitive in any era. But he would definitely take many more clean hits. it's all relative.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree. But, I'm a hater. He always begs for calls and is smug.

Palpatine Q · « **Reply #258 on:** January 14, 2013, 07:12:42 AM »

Quote from: Irongrip400 on January 14, 2013, 06:53:58 AM

Yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree. But, I'm a hater. He always begs for calls and is smug.

shit that's been going on forever. People still hate the Cowboys to this day from calls they got 20 years ago, and even 35 years ago if you are old enough to remember them in the 70's. I used to antagonize my older, much larger brother on Sunday when the Cowboys were on, and then he would kick the crap out of me for a while

tu_holmes · « **Reply #259 on:** January 14, 2013, 07:27:59 AM »

Quote from: Bevo on January 14, 2013, 12:25:49 AM

I agree with u elway over Montana

Just to be clear... I do not think Elway is better than Montana... ON ANY LEVEL.

My statement was that Only Denver Fans think Elway was better than Montana... Everyone else knows better.

King Shizzo · « **Reply #260 on:** January 14, 2013, 07:39:42 AM »

Quote from: tu_holmes on January 14, 2013, 07:27:59 AM

Just to be clear... I do not think Elway is better than Montana... ON ANY LEVEL.

My statement was that Only Denver Fans think Elway was better than Montana... Everyone else knows better.

Thats why we are all beating a dead horse. I can see how a 9er fan would pick Montana. I can see how a Colt fan would pick Manning. I am a Patriots fan, so I pick Brady.

tu_holmes · « **Reply #261 on:** January 14, 2013, 07:43:49 AM »

Quote from: shizzo81 on January 14, 2013, 07:39:42 AM

Thats why we are all beating a dead horse. I can see how a 9er fan would pick Montana. I can see how a Colt fan would pick Manning. I am a Patriots fan, so I pick Brady.

I don't think a Colt fan would pick Manning, just like Dolphin fans don't go rushing to Marino's nutsack.

I think you took a poll, you'd find more of a consensus that puts Montana up top, then everyone else just below... Staubach, Elway, Bradshaw, Brady, and Manning are all right there tied for 2nd based on various criteria... Does Brady have the ability to be put up top? Sure... And he has time to achieve that goal, but then so does technically Manning.

Lot of "ifs" go into it, but sure... They have the potential to take that top spot.

A lot of the statements about the game are definitely true today... A lot of shots that guys like Montana had to take would never be allowed today. The kid gloves on today's QBs definitely makes it easier for the Golden Boys of the NFL.

King Shizzo · « **Reply #262 on:** January 14, 2013, 07:44:08 AM »

Actually, I'm going to call bullshit on the quarterback stats. A guy like Marino played most of his career during the days that corners still could do alot. Marino still racked up a ton of stats. A good quarterback is a good quarterback, regardless of era.

King Shizzo · « **Reply #263 on:** January 14, 2013, 07:46:35 AM »

Quote from: tu_holmes on January 14, 2013, 07:43:49 AM

I don't think a Colt fan would pick Manning, just like Dolphin fans don't go rushing to Marino's nutsack.

I think you took a poll, you'd find more of a consensus that puts Montana up top, then everyone else just below... Staubach, Elway, Bradshaw, Brady, and Manning are all right there tied for 2nd based on various criteria... Does Brady have the ability to be put up top? Sure... And he has time to achieve that goal, but then so does technically Manning.

Lot of "ifs" go into it, but sure... They have the potential to take that top spot.

A lot of the statements about the game are definitely true today... A lot of shots that guys like Montana had to take would never be allowed today. The kid gloves on today's QBs definitely makes it easier for the Golden Boys of the NFL.

Bottom line: Brady has made five superbowls (1 win away from six) Manning has only made two. I'll admit that what Manning did in Denver was amazing, but Tim Tebow got Denver a win in last years playoffs.

tu_holmes · « **Reply #264 on:** January 14, 2013, 07:50:09 AM »

Quote from: shizzo81 on January 14, 2013, 07:46:35 AM

Bottom line: Brady has made five superbowls (1 win away from six) Manning has only made two. I'll admit that what Manning did in Denver was amazing, but Tim Tebow got Denver a win in last years playoffs.

No argument here... That's why I say he could easily be up top... You give him a couple more superbowl wins and he's got a legit claim.

It's hard to say you're "The best" when you go to the big game and lose sometimes though... Montana is 4-0 and when you are perfect in the big game, it's hard to say you aren't the best when you add in all of the other stats that Montana has to go with.

Palpatine Q · « **Reply #265 on:** January 14, 2013, 07:53:42 AM »

Quote from: shizzo81 on January 14, 2013, 07:39:42 AM

Thats why we are all beating a dead horse. I can see how a 9er fan would pick Montana. I can see how a Colt fan would pick Manning. I am a Patriots fan, so I pick Brady.

To me it's just silly, and it applies to all sports. This belief that the guys from 20 years ago, the entire group, is somehow head and shoulders above the guys who play now. People are People and they haven't changed all that much, if anything they have gotten better due to advances in training, nutrition and PEDS. Kids in HS now train like Walter Payton did and have a vision of where they want to be in 5 years....they are all jocks who went to college and made it to the pros.

John Elway wasn't superman ..he was a dude. Colin Kaepernick is bigger. stronger, has a better arm and is faster than Elway ever was.he can outrun safeties and put the ball 80 yards with a perfect spiral. How many Superbowls does he win playing against players 20 years ago ?

King Shizzo · « **Reply #266 on:** January 14, 2013, 08:05:57 AM »

I agree Groink. There should be some generational consideration. It probably should be broken up amongst decades. Brady has the 2000's locked up.

King Shizzo · « **Reply #267 on:** January 14, 2013, 08:14:24 AM »

We all should agree that Brady is better than Manning though.

Manning 1 Ring (2 appearances) 8-11 playoff record.
Brady 3 rings (5 appearances) 17-6 playoff record (passes Montana (16) for most all time playoff wins. Is it really a debate?

Grape Ape · « **Reply #268 on:** January 14, 2013, 08:16:35 AM »

Quote from: shizzo81 on January 14, 2013, 08:14:24 AM

We all should agree that Brady is better than Manning though.

Manning 1 Ring (2 appearances) 8-11 playoff record.
Brady 3 rings (5 appearances) 17-6 playoff record (passes Montana (16) for most all time playoff wins. Is it really a debate?

Rings without taping the other team's plays.

Eli Manning: 2
Ben Rothlisberger: 2
Peyton Manning: 1
Tom Brady: 0

King Shizzo · « **Reply #269 on:** January 14, 2013, 08:47:55 AM »

Bullshit!!! Thats the biggest lie going around. What happened after they were exposed by that rat (Mangini) in week 1 of 2007? They only went 16-0 and made it to the superbowl. What happened after 2007? They went to another superbowl, and are on the doorstep this year. Whatever it was obviously didn't help them, and Goodell would have brought the hammer down on them if he had real evidence.

Why don't people talk about the Saints? Bounty Gate? The supposed taping of the visiting teams playcalling?

Face it guys, the Pats are the elite of elite. They are in the hunt every damn year. Get over it.

Nails · « **Reply #270 on:** January 14, 2013, 08:49:34 AM »

Joe Montana never won a superbowl with Kansas City

Grape Ape · « **Reply #271 on:** January 14, 2013, 09:05:50 AM »

Quote from: shizzo81 on January 14, 2013, 08:47:55 AM

Bullshit!!! Thats the biggest lie going around. .

3 Super Bowl wins all by 3 points, the slightest of margins, all when they video taped the other teams first sets of plays. It's not a stretch to draw conclusions.

Quote from: shizzo81 on January 14, 2013, 08:47:55 AM

What happened after 2007? They went to another superbowl, and are on the doorstep this year.

Once the taping stopped they went to two Super Bowls and lost by the slightest of margins. It's just part of their history.

Quote from: shizzo81 on January 14, 2013, 08:47:55 AM

Goodell would have brought the hammer down on them if he had real evidence.

Goodell DID bring the hammer down, fining Belichek 500k and taking away the draft picks. The NFL took this as seriously as anything.

King Shizzo · « **Reply #272 on:** January 14, 2013, 09:15:30 AM »

Quote from: Grape Ape on January 14, 2013, 09:05:50 AM

3 Super Bowl wins all by 3 points, the slightest of margins, all when they video taped the other teams first sets of plays. It's not a stretch to draw conclusions.

Once the taping stopped they went to two Super Bowls and lost by the slightest of margins. It's just part of their history.

Goodell DID bring the hammer down, fining Belichek 500k and taking away the draft picks. The NFL took this as seriously as anything.

The whole point of the "spygate" retards is that the Patriots would have been nothing without it. The fact is, they keep on winning and making superbowls years later. Grape Ape, your own boy (Parcells) says that everyone cheats to get an advantage. How are the Patriots still winning 5 years after the fact? Its just that jealous fans of shit teams, have nothing else to cling to. Patriots are Americas team. Fuck the Cowboys.

tu_holmes · « **Reply #273 on:** January 14, 2013, 09:17:19 AM »

Quote from: Nails on January 14, 2013, 08:49:34 AM

Joe Montana never won a superbowl with Kansas City

No, but he took a pretty scrub squad and an over the hill Marcus Allen to the AFC championship.

Grape Ape · « **Reply #274 on:** January 14, 2013, 09:17:41 AM »

Quote from: shizzo81 on January 14, 2013, 09:15:30 AM

The whole point of the "spygate" retards is that the Patriots would have been nothing without it. The fact is, they keep on winning and making superbowls years later. Grape Ape, your own boy (Parcells) says that everyone cheats to get an advantage. How are the Patriots still winning 5 years after the fact? Its just that jealous fans of shit teams, have nothing else to cling to. Patriots are Americas team. Fuck the Cowboys.

They have not won in almost a decade, and haven't won anything since the taping stopped.

How are they still winning? Easy - Elite QB, Elite coach and drafting, Elite ownership, and playing in a shitty division year after year.