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Author Topic: Where did Islam come from?  (Read 2146 times)
Man of Steel
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2013, 09:38:29 AM »

good stuff man. It puts alot of things into perspective huh?

Well it does but provide some education and perspective, but not in a manner that leads me closer to accepting Islamic theology (I don’t mean that to be disrespectful either).  Fact of the matter is, I will never forsake my God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because the truth of God has been affirmed for me through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  I know ahmed simply responds with “meaningless emotional rhetoric”,  but that does nothing to take away from the reality of the situation…..that’s a just canned response for a concept foreign to him (doesn’t have to be that way though).  

Christianity and Islam may have some verses of scripture that are similar, but that doesn't negate the foundational tenets that are diametrically opposed.  The simple change from "salvation by grace through faith in Christ" to "human works as payment for sin" is the crux of the matter (for me).   That seemingly simply change in theology becomes shrouded in the "written elegance and beauty of the Quran", but it’s part of the essence of the monumental change!  For the Muslim, the fact that our own human works are not enough to pay our sin debt  is often brushed off with a casual, "So we're not supposed to do good things....BAH...that's pagan!"  The indwelling of Holy Spirit and a believers act of repentance that follows are brushed aside as well, but if it is addressed it's given the ole "emotional rhetoric" response which is meaningless in and of itself and founded completely in ignorance.      

Islam reinvents Christ as “prophet Jesus (pbuh)”, denies his deity, his resurrection, his sacrifice on the cross, denies the trinity, denies salvation by grace through faith, denies virtually every word of scripture, denies Paul’s revelation from Christ and cherry picks biblical scripture to meet a desired end.  In essence, every verse of biblical scripture in support of the Christian is corrupt, but any verse serving the Muslim is somehow acceptable....a double standard and pure nonsense!!  

The theology of Islam is affirmed in biblical scripture, but that affirmation is found only in biblical warnings concerning future false prophets,  competing theologies that deny Christ or apostasy.  If it denies Christ, it is the antithesis of Christ and sourced from the antichrist.  The whole notion that Islam accepts "prophet Jesus as the Messiah" is nonsense!!!  There is no acceptance of biblical, scriptural Christ, there’s only a reimagining of Christ within a new, antichristian theology…..a new version of Jesus was fashioned to fit the Islamic mold.

Yes, I watch some of the posted videos, read internet articles, I read a book to help me understand Islam; although, I in no way believe or uphold its foundational tenets.  Although, let me be clear, I don’t dislike Musims….I dislike Islamic theology; further, I know this won’t cushion the blow or “make things right” between Muslims and Christians.  Still, I have to be honest because I genuinely care about the members of this board…..even those that detest me.

What gets me is that the Muslim is so steadfast in their support of Islam, Allah, Muhammad, etc…., but fully admits that their life’s pursuit of good works may not secure them a place in Allah’s eternal paradise.  The Muslim cannot be sure that they’re doing enough or doing their good works appropriately.  At least the atheist believes “hey, when I’m dead that’s it.”   For the Muslim a life of good works may simply be in vain.        
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2013, 01:33:56 PM »

I personally believe Muhammad was listening to, and probably possessed by, demons. But even if it were an angel, Paul warns:

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"


Lets see what God says in the Quran(in Chapter 5. The Table Spread ):

"They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers"

"They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment."

"And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.Allah will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.
also look at this verse:

Say, "O People of the Scripture, do not exceed limits in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclinations of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way."

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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2013, 01:46:44 PM »

Quote
The simple change from "salvation by grace through faith in Christ" to "human works as payment for sin" is the crux of the matter (for me)

Except that's not what Islam believes, it shows that you are still unaware despite all we've said. That's what you believe Islam believes. Yes you believe that you are 'saved' and garaunteed paradise for worshipping Jesus a man, but we do not believe that we do good deeds to pay for sin.

We do good deeds because it is good. We avoid evil deeds because it is evil.

However God will JUSTLY JUDGE everyone. That's the component you are missing that Islam has. Justice.

People will be rewarded and punished based on the good and evil they do, however it is not the deeds by which we enter heaven but by God's mercy.

So you see the difference, we believe in God's mercy, yet we are also thought justice and to live this life justly, to be rewarded as such, and as a result also lead lives of righteousness amongst mankind with good deeds. Those that are evil will be judged accordingly. That is all it comes down to.

It's not about 'atonement for sin', or 'original sin' or whatever other invented non-sense that we do good works for.
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2013, 01:46:55 PM »

Edit:  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2013, 02:07:59 PM »

#Invalid YouTube Link#

watch this. watch this if you really claim to follow pual. and dont give me any of that "Oh no! not more youtube videos!"stuff either.

I nicely requested no videos on this thread which I started, but you clearly have no respect and can't form an opinion of your own.  That's okay.  Do as thy will.    Roll Eyes
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« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2013, 02:17:32 PM »

We don't 'form our opinions' we believe in islam and we get our knowledge from scholars and the qur'an. That's another difference between us and you. You make up your beliefs as you go, hence why in the past when I debated with some christians on here some even went as far as affirming that God can become objects if he so willed. Even if it's blasphemy and goes against scriptural proofs, you can go that far off when you just form your beliefs on conjecture.

The video he posted illustrates the point quite clearly, in fact that's pretty much how I imagined Paul lol.
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« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2013, 02:41:48 PM »

#Invalid YouTube Link#

watch this. watch this if you really claim to follow pual. and dont give me any of that "Oh no! not more youtube videos!"stuff either.

I nicely requested no videos on this thread which I started, but you clearly have no respect and can't have a discussion of your own.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2013, 03:31:49 PM »

It's too bad you don't like it.
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« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2013, 03:35:37 PM »

Jesus was teaching his disciples in the outer court of the Temple and one of them said unto him: Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood there is no remission. Can then the blood offering of the law take away sin? And Jesus answered: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation. (Gospel of the Nazorenes, Lection 33, verses 1-2)


wait a sec, Jesus(pbuh) says blood offerings cant take away sin, yet you claim he died for your sins? hmmm? ehh?
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« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2013, 03:53:37 PM »

  Do as thy will.    Roll Eyes

LOL. words loco lives by.
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« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2013, 11:02:42 PM »

Mohammed was tricked by Satan into thinking he was god. He called himself Allah, therefore Allah = Satan. Mohammed himself said he had thought he spoke to Satan. People say the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making people think he doesnt exist... I dont think thats correct. His greatest trick was creating Islam and still having millions think he is thier god.
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« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2013, 11:10:28 PM »

Mohammed was tricked by Satan into thinking he was god. He called himself Allah, therefore Allah = Satan. Mohammed himself said he had thought he spoke to Satan. People say the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making people think he doesnt exist... I dont think thats correct. His greatest trick was creating Islam and still having millions think he is thier god.

1. Mohammed never said he spoke to Satan
2. The jews claim to Worship Allah
3. the word Allah is in Hebrew, Aramic and Arabic
4. http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=455071.0 take a look at this(since Loco has a fear of youtube(and the truth), I will respect his fears and not post the vid in this thread)
5. you miserably failed(again).
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« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2013, 06:52:13 AM »

Jesus was teaching his disciples in the outer court of the Temple and one of them said unto him: Master, it is said by the priests that without shedding of blood there is no remission. Can then the blood offering of the law take away sin? And Jesus answered: No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation. (Gospel of the Nazorenes, Lection 33, verses 1-2)


wait a sec, Jesus(pbuh) says blood offerings cant take away sin, yet you claim he died for your sins? hmmm? ehh?

1.  What does this have to do with this thread?
2.  I already posted many verses saying that Jesus did indeed die for our sins
3.  You just owned yourself with that verse above as it clearly confirms that not just any man can die for our sins.  The death of Jesus Christ is the only sacrifice that He(God) would accept as atonement for our sins.  

Where did you get the above verse from anyway, Gospel of the Nazorenes?  LOL

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
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« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2013, 02:39:28 PM »

Sorry ahmed, I accidentally deleted your post....my apologies....did not mean to do that.
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« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2013, 11:53:14 AM »

The Qur'an was not even written by Muhammad.  It was written down by Muhammad's companions. The Qur'an was not completed until many years after the death of Muhammad.
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« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2013, 02:46:22 PM »

It was memorized by Muhammad and his companions then written down yes.

Something we can hardly say of anyone even today of the bible, then the many flavours, versions and editions.

The qur'an is memorized by hundreds of millions of people today word for word, even little children.
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