Author Topic: PCT opinions.  (Read 8139 times)

DIVISION

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PCT opinions.
« on: December 11, 2005, 02:28:59 AM »
For those experienced.

On an extended cycle (20+ Weeks) do you feel better using 300-500IU HCG every 4/5 days, or do you prefer to wait until after the cycle is over to do traditional PCT? 

Post up your PCT and please be specific.

Speak on this.




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Luv2Hurt

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2005, 06:27:44 AM »
I think it works best while on, too bad you were not around when marble did TONS of research on this.

Sertoli cells, the kind that DON'T REPRODUCE AND YOU ONLY HAVE SO MANY OF start to die after 4-5 days.  They are considered "nurse cells", cause they nourish the sperm in the semiferious tubules and I repeat; you have a fixed amount of them!   A lack of LH kills em,  A complete shut down of the HPTA, like you experience on gear will cause the cells to begin dying, about 4-5 days.

http://education.vetmed.vt.edu/Curriculum/VM8054/Labs/Lab27/EXAMPLES/EXSERTOL.HTM

Marble's research was much more complete on this, but HCG will keep these cells alive, cause it keeps the testes producing sperm.  Its no big deal if you don't plan on fathering any children or are done with that.  If you are young and may want kids this will help down the road.  Mild use for shortish periods without LH will probally not kill off all these cells on you but long term use from a young age may cause you problems down the road.

The part you have to be careful of is desensitizing the testes with too large a dose of HCG, use as little as you can 300-500Ius is about right.  You will know when it's working you should be having the feeling of being about 14 YO as far a sex hormones go.  If you desensitize them it will take a long time for them to respond to your natty levels when you come off.  But marble had research on how at low doses they will not desensitize.

Use it on any cycle, start it with your first AAS shot.  make sure you are running some kind of estrogen protection, cause the HCG will cause increased aromatase.

gammahydroxy

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2005, 06:04:57 PM »
Check this out: It's an interesting article about using Aromsin for PCT.  http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?pageID=431&issueID=35
I may utilize the same protocol for my next PCT..
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Kegdrainer

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2005, 02:49:07 AM »
very informative.  I will have to delve a little deeper into some of my resources but if all this is legit, there should be some serious thought put into PCT especially with regard to Clomid use.   Anyone else have any thoughts?

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2005, 05:33:14 AM »
Thank YOU guys for sharing this knowledge . . .

Damn there A R E some smart people here
that I am greatful for . . .

Mike
1 life 1 liver

gammahydroxy

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2005, 06:37:37 PM »
I would just wait and do the trad PCT...In my experience with long cycles...HCG doesn't really help me...I inject 500 I.u's and my boys drop for a few hours, then they atrophy even more than before..Plus it's pretty expensive drug...I use 25mg of clomid every 3-4 days after week 6-7, and that seems to help keep my boys down..
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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2005, 07:27:35 PM »
On extended cycles, yes, I have found it useful to include HCG throughout.

I had good results using 250 IU's twice weekly, on Mon. and Thur.  It was enough to prevent testicular atrophy.  Certainly some people will need more than that to stave off atrophy though.

Arnold jr

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2005, 07:40:42 PM »
I've never had any trouble with atrophy... yeah I know, probably lucky.  For that reason I've never used hcg during cycle, only as part of pct to help with recovery.

I'm very interested though to see where this thread goes because I am very interested in running some extended cycles.  With that in mind I know hcg during cycle is something I might want to think about.

Great thread!

denvmuscle

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2005, 09:16:51 AM »
This is an interesting thread- and I dont' mean to "hijack" the thread but I'd like to ask some questions of my own since I JUST am starting my PCT and.. guess what with???   HCT and Clomid!   Can I get advice from you guys on what do do with what I've got- the more I read, the more confused I am:

I just finished my first cycle which was 20 weeks of test and eq and some Dbol thrown in.  Not much problem with testicular atrophys so that's good.   I am planning on doing a show mid-April. 

Can you guys suggest what dosages, frequency and duration I should do my HCG and Clomid.

Thanks.

sportingsteroids

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2005, 09:32:50 AM »
hi div, can u post here your 20 weeks long cycle !!

thanks
w

DIVISION

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2005, 02:07:50 PM »
Check this out: It's an interesting article about using Aromsin for PCT.  http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?pageID=431&issueID=35
I may utilize the same protocol for my next PCT..

The reasoning sounds good, just wish we had corroboration from people who have used that PCT.

Using Aromasin because it effectively inactivates estrogen receptors completely is interesting.  I think I'll use this PCT for my next LONG cycle, but I still think I'll use HCG 300-500IU e4d during cycle though.




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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2005, 03:06:17 PM »

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally we sought to determine the dose response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to determine the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate (TE) weekly in combination with either saline placebo or hCG 125 IU, 250 IU, or 500 IU every other day for 3 weeks. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/L) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/L). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 nmol/L to 72 nmol/L) in the TE/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Post-treatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.




Last time I cycled I used ~350/EOD.

DIVISION

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2005, 03:18:35 PM »
Last time I cycled I used ~350/EOD.

Based on this study, what do you see as the advantage of running 350IU EOD vs. 500IU E4D?

I see these are basically the same, concentration wise over the course of a cycle.

1400IU vs. 1000IU every 7 days......that's what it comes down to.



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BIGMIKE

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2005, 03:22:47 PM »
THIS IS ALL VERY INTERESTING,ESPECIALLY SINCE I'VE NEVER HEARD OF ANYONE ACTUALLY GOING THRU WITH THIS.IT IS OBVIOUS,THOUGH,THAT EVERYONE (INCLUDING MYSELF ALLTHOUGH I HAVEN'T TRIED IT)AGREES THAT HCG NEEDS TO BE KEPT ON THE LOW SIDE TO AVOID OVERSTIMULATION OF THE TESTES WHICH CAUSES DESENSITIZATION.ALTHOUGH I HAVE ALWAYS GONE ON THE ADVICE OF A UROLOGIST WHO ONCE TOLD ME THAT THE BEST I COULD DO WAS TO MAKE SURE I KEPT STIMULATING THE BOYS ,AND MAKE SURE TO "RELIEVE PRESSURE" AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE.WITH OR WITHOUT HELP.HE SAID THAT THIS WOULD HELP FORCE THEM INTO STAYING  ACTIVE.I REALIZE THAT THIS IS OLD SCHOOL MENTALITY BUT I NEVER REALLY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ATROPHY EXCEPT TOWARDS THE END OF PREP FOR A SHOW,WHEN ALL I HAVE THE ENERGY FOR IS EATING ,SLEEPING,AND TRAINING.EVEN THEN,IT IS ALWAYS MINIMAL.STILL,THIS DOES DESERVE A SHOT.JUST STARTED PREP FOR MY NEXT SHOW THIS WEEK,SO I'M RIGHT ON TIME TO TRY IT OUT.I'M NORMALLY PRONE TO SOME CONVERSION SO I IMAGINE THAT IT WILL BE MUCH WORSE NOW.ANY SUGGESTIONS?

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2005, 11:05:58 PM »
some studies i didnt write these go figure...








Human chorionic gonadotrophin is a strange hormone. Its only found in the placenta of pregnant women. For women it has fairly little use if any however, but to the male athlete it has one interesting property. It can mimic the action of luteinizing hormone (LH) in the body. LH is a pituitary hormone that is released and signals the manufacture of testosterone in the testicles. The sex hormones in the body work via a negative feedback system, where too much sex hormone (like anabolic androgenic steroids and estrogens) causes a signal to the brain to stop the release of LH. During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG.

Since it forms testosterone in the body to some extent, it can impart certain performance enhancing properties, but usually these are not major. The side-effects accompanied with HCG use (usually androgenic such as extreme acne), its low rate of effect, the cost compared to more effective steroids and so on will mostly keep athletes from using it for that purpose. Moreover it can be tested for in athletic competitions, so most will stay clear of it. But to the steroid user HCG is an almost essential part of a cycle. Because of its effect on bringing testicle size back it can promote the return of natural testosterone, since the first natural signals can immediately deliver a higher yield of testosterone in the body. And getting natural testosterone back online after a cycle is crucial, especially if you intend to keep most of your hard-earned gains. Without adequate natural endocrine response you will not be able to maintain a mass that was higher than before.



The downside is that HCG too is suppressive of natural testosterone. Because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain of command, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which is secreted from the hypothalamus. And since an LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously, the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will still tell it to stop making GnRH, and so no natural LH is produced. This is why the product is always used in conjunction with a potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid or Nolvadex. When the androgen level in the body has dropped, these antagonists will lower estrogenic response creating a steroid deficit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH. When it does, after HCG therapy, testicle size is up again and shortly thereafter natural testosterone manufacture should return to normal. But therefore its crucial that users note that though HCG is essential after long cycles, it shouldn't be used without clomid or Nolvadex AND HCG should be discontinued at least two weeks before coming off Clomid or Nolvadex or else it will suppress natural testosterone itself.

Also important to take into account : using HCG for too long a period of time or in doses that are excessively high, can desensitize the testicles to the effect of LH and would put your right back where you started from. Basically that would mean you spent money to no avail. In terms of side-effects one should expect some androgenic signs such as acne and there is a risk for hair loss or prostate hypertrophy, but in most cases this compound will be used for 3-4 weeks, so these should not manifest themselves to any serious degree. There will also be some estrogen build-up, but since the user HAS to be on clomid or Nolvadex, this should not become apparent either. Next to this, HCG being a fertility drug, one should be aware that increased blood pressure and blood clotting can occur. HCG is clinically used to make women ovulate, or to invoke birth in pregnant women.

Stacking and Use:

You would normally opt to use HCG after you've done a long cycle, usually 8 weeks or more. Note that almost all proper cycles are 8 weeks or more in length, its just that some beginners have a phobia of needles and opt to waste their time with an all oral stack first, in which case the cycle wouldn't be longer than 6-7 weeks. In these cases too HCG can have a use, but most of the time testicular atrophy will not have progressed to such a stage that it is an absolute necessity. In any case, you should run it about 3 weeks, totaling about 4 shots. One every 5-6 days. Start off with one shot of 3000 IU somewhere in the last week of your stack, then another 3000 5 days later, then drop to 1500 5 days later and a last shot of 1500 6 days after that. Sometime after the second or third shot, therapy with Nolvadex or clomid should be commenced and continued for 4-5 weeks. How to do this, I refer you to the Nolva/clomid profile.

In any case, I'll repeat it again, since it is important. HCG IS and always will be an important part of post-cycle recovery, but it should never be run too long or at too high a dose and should always be accompanied by the use of either Clomid or Nolvadex. The use of Clomid or Nolvadex should also be continued at least 2 weeks after HCG is discontinued to avoid the HCG causing problems.


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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2005, 11:06:50 PM »
and another 1...........









I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) every third day, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. This is infinitely better than waiting until they have seriously atrophied. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. This drives up estrogen levels, unopposed by increased testosterone production. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. They have been shown to represent the rate-limiting step in HPTA recovery (usually). LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of testicular stimulation by same. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 50mg QD for Clomid, 20mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator—the class of drugs Nolvadex and Clomid belong to) at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures), BEFORE beginning to taper down the SERM. Tapering the SERM is a must at the end, dropping the dose in half every five days until you are taking only 12.5mg of Clomid, or 5mg of Nolvadex, before stopping.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG a week or so after the end of the cycle. Exactly how long you take it depends upon the half-life of the AAS used, and their dosing. Otherwise, the testosterone production HCG induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatizable steroids is a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

Copyright 2004 John Crisler, DO. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit be given to its author, with copyright notice and www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.

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DIVISION

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2005, 01:23:55 AM »
some studies i didnt write these go figure...

Good work, Xkol.....

Good lookin' out, bro.





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IFBBwannaB

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2005, 06:37:34 AM »
I prefer EOD shots because of the short half life of HCG.
It reachs maximum levels at about 6 hours and exponantialy decline.
I think I had a study who qouted this ,I will look for it when I get home.

So no,total intake isnt what matter like you said.

If you like I can send you my old study summarys when me and Marbel discussed usage of HCG mid cycle.

EDIT:

Do note the extremly importent factor of the study I posted.They measured ITT which is a much better indicator of your testicals operation then blood Test levels.

And with such beautiful results from teh study why go play with it and do shot/5days on a substance that is known to have a short half life?

When I first read it I felt like this study was made by some juicer,it awnsered on many questions for me :D

Luv2Hurt

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2005, 06:59:50 AM »
The info Big X posted is awesome!  The later is the protocol I used and damn I could not BELIEVE how fast I recovered from an almost 10 month cycle.

If I didn't know better I would say it was marble who wrote that??????? or his mentor at least.

After reading it it further proves to me my theory that using fast clearing compounds specifically test propinate for the last month, will hasten recovery also....in my experience it worked too.  Have learned to listen to my body pretty good over the years....like most BB.  I was monitoring myself lots during this PCT and as expected I felt a small "lull" period in the process about week 2, as I figured I would because the LH had worn off and the natty test had not been all the way back up.  But about week 3-4 felt things comming back around.  It even felt like I jumped back on for a couple weeks, while my test levels rebounded.

Thats why I posted the HCG source, so guys who cant find it could protect themselves.  But the mods deleted it....in a smug way  :(

The reason I'm so supprized is I'M freaking 42 and am recovering better than when i was younger.

Luv2Hurt

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2005, 07:02:40 AM »
If you like I can send you my old study summarys when me and Marbel discussed usage of HCG mid cycle.


Please do that would be great.  Post it for all, just credit the author.

IFBBwannaB

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2005, 02:25:21 PM »
Attaching  .doc file with the intresting studies I found.I highlighted parts who seemed relative to me.
I dont summary it in a way of making an article because Im lazy....and...by needing to read it again I might have some new ideas and theorys on the subject.


Most of the studies are from the post me and Marble had a long time ago.God that was some good times :P

BTW : attaching it in .jpg cause it wont let me attach .doc ,just rename the extention once you DL the attachment.

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2005, 01:10:01 AM »
The info Big X posted is awesome!  The later is the protocol I used and damn I could not BELIEVE how fast I recovered from an almost 10 month cycle.

If I didn't know better I would say it was marble who wrote that??????? or his mentor at least.

After reading it it further proves to me my theory that using fast clearing compounds specifically test propinate for the last month, will hasten recovery also....in my experience it worked too.  Have learned to listen to my body pretty good over the years....like most BB.  I was monitoring myself lots during this PCT and as expected I felt a small "lull" period in the process about week 2, as I figured I would because the LH had worn off and the natty test had not been all the way back up.  But about week 3-4 felt things comming back around.  It even felt like I jumped back on for a couple weeks, while my test levels rebounded.

Thats why I posted the HCG source, so guys who cant find it could protect themselves.  But the mods deleted it....in a smug way  :(

The reason I'm so supprized is I'M freaking 42 and am recovering better than when i was younger.

Dr. Crisler is a highly respected doctor in the field of HRT...

http://www.allthingsmale.com

theman

DIVISION

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2005, 02:04:38 AM »
I prefer EOD shots because of the short half life of HCG.
It reachs maximum levels at about 6 hours and exponantialy decline.
I think I had a study who qouted this ,I will look for it when I get home.

So no,total intake isnt what matter like you said.

Do note the extremly importent factor of the study I posted.They measured ITT which is a much better indicator of your testicals operation then blood Test levels.

And with such beautiful results from teh study why go play with it and do shot/5days on a substance that is known to have a short half life?

 John Crisler, DO. of www.AllThingsMale.com is the one who advocated 250-500IU E3D, which is what I was recommending.  He specializes in HRT for a living, so I'd probably be more apt to take his experience over a study that you have interpreted on your own.

Nothing against you or Marble, but my thinking is that Doc has worked with many patients specifically with the aim of bringing up endegenous test levels, so he knows what he's talking about.

Now, if Marble was here to dispute this with his own rationalizations and points of contention, by all means I'd listen.

As is, though.......if the Doc says E3D, I'd likely try that before EOD.




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IFBBwannaB

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2005, 02:38:07 AM »
http://www.anabolex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145484

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive

I read his article long time ago.But you missed the fact he looks for stable levles.His patients DONT ever recover they start from the state you want to prevent.

Your intentions to use high amounts of HCG on large intervals have no basis from his article or studies.
If you will look for the old HCG post you will see mine and Marble conclusions.No need for Marble to come again,he had it all written out there.

ALTHOUGH E3D sound ok too but i wouldnt go over ~350IU ,the DR and the stuides clearly show its counterproductive.

DIVISION

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Re: PCT opinions.
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2005, 04:46:14 AM »
Your intentions to use high amounts of HCG on large intervals have no basis from his article or studies.

If you will look for the old HCG post you will see mine and Marble conclusions.No need for Marble to come again,he had it all written out there.

What are you talking about, bro?

I said 250-500IU.....those are not high amounts at all.  E3D is not a large interval either.  I think you're missing the point.  I didn't write the article, the Doctor did and I'd trust his expertise over one study, regardless of what you and Marble deciphered from said study. 

Regarding Marble, yes he should come back again.  He was one of the few who actually could read a study and explain it so most people could understand it.  I'm trying to get him back......




DIV
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