Mentzer says...

[Yev33]

Since you seem to know more about the strength of these guys who are the "weak" ones then?

Heath, Flex, Ray, Dillett could have been a monster if he didn't try like a pussy, you think it's an accident he had a very mediocre back compared to the other guys. All of the guys I just mentioned got by on unbelievable genetics.

Oh by the way, you wanna see what Ray could have looked like if he trained heavier, look at Dexter.

[Borracho]

Heath, Flex, Ray, Dillett could have been a monster if he didn't try like a pussy, you think it's an accident he had a very mediocre back compared to the other guys. All of the guys I just mentioned got by on unbelievable genetics.

Oh by the way, you wanna see what Ray could have looked like if he trained heavier, look at Dexter.

I don't know yev but all those guys you mentioned are pretty big to me. There's no way I would be able to tell who was stronger if you were just to post pics would you?

dj181... I think you have to train a way that allows you to keep at it for a long time and if that means hit for you than by all means keep at it. The weight increases will come in due time but if you have structural problems or weak joints/ligaments/tendons etc focusing on maximum weight is a recipe for disaster. As you get bigger and stronger you may have to change the way you train....worry about that when you get there...listen to your body.

[Donny]

yeah.. you got to listen to your body. Everyone is diffrent and so is every training method and principle.

[Yev33]

I don't know yev but all those guys you mentioned are pretty big to me. There's no way I would be able to tell who was stronger if you were just to post pics would you?

C'mon man you're telling me you can't see the size and density difference between Coleman and Heath, Yates and Dillet, Dex and Shawn Ray. How about the fact that Levrone and Cormier both weighed 20lbs more on stage than Flex even though Flex was taller.

All of these guys are genetic freaks, of course they will all be big and look great. But there is a very clear difference between those that pushed their training weights up, and those that just went through the motions just getting a pump.

Train the way you wanna train, no one will tell you otherwise. I just don't like it when a member like dj181 who has the right idea, has people trying to convince him he is wrong.

[Yev33]

It's not about if one guy is stronger than the next. It's about which guy is stronger than he was 5 years ago that tells the difference.

[Borracho]

C'mon man you're telling me you can't see the size and density difference between Coleman and Heath, Yates and Dillet, Dex and Shawn Ray. How about the fact that Levrone and Cormier both weighed 20lbs more on stage than Flex even though Flex was taller.

All of these guys are genetic freaks, of course they will all be big and look great. But there is a very clear difference between those that pushed their training weights up, and those that just went through the motions just getting a pump.

Train the way you wanna train, no one will tell you otherwise. I just don't like it when a member like dj181 who has the right idea, has people trying to convince him he is wrong.

It's not about if one guy is stronger than the next. It's about which guy is stronger than he was 5 years ago that tells the difference.

It's a little hard for me to compare physiques...especially given different genetics, eras, and drugs but you saying had shawn ray trained heavier he'd look exactly like dexter is reaching pretty far. Don't know where you buy a crystal ball like that. Regardless, to me Shawn looked better than any of the guys you listed (subjective I know) and lets apply him to your last point which I can definitely agree with.

I'm 100% sure shawn did get stronger as he grew bigger without a doubt. These guys would go to extreme lengths to gain an edge over the next guy...why would he be a pussy in the gym if he seriously thought that was the difference between 1st and 2nd place. What do you know that Shawn Ray didn't?

[oldtimer1]

  How much stronger can you get if you have been lifting for 7 plus years? Keep banging you head against the wall trying to add 10lbs to a lift?

  A good goal is to try to get stronger through volume. Increasing what you can lift for 4 sets of 10 or 5 sets of 12. Trying to get stronger for that one set to failure will get you to a sticking point quick if you are an experience trainer. Increasing your muscular endurance will build muscle and will carry you further before burn out.

Training to failure for one set or low sets is a valid tool to be used in lifting. It shouldn't be the only tool used.

[Yev33]

It's a little hard for me to compare physiques...especially given different genetics, eras, and drugs but you saying had shawn ray trained heavier he'd look exactly like dexter is reaching pretty far. Don't know where you buy a crystal ball like that. Regardless, to me Shawn looked better than any of the guys you listed (subjective I know) and lets apply him to your last point which I can definitely agree with.

I'm 100% sure shawn did get stronger as he grew bigger without a doubt. These guys would go to extreme lengths to gain an edge over the next guy...why would he be a pussy in the gym if he seriously thought that was the difference between 1st and 2nd place. What do you know that Shawn Ray didn't?

         And I can guarantee you that it was during this time period that he made the most of his size gains. Do I know for sure whether or not Shawn would look like Dex if he trained differently? No. But it's a pretty good comparison between him and Dex since they are both about the same height. Not to mention if I remeber correctly Dex turned pro as bantamweight. What I do know is that the guys with the most muscle mass on their frames that are at the elite IFBB level all pushed their training poundages. Compare Ronnie's first DVD to the Unbelievable or COR and see the difference in the training poundages. When you get to the elite level in IFBB, everyone is abusing drugs, everyone is a genetic freak, and everyone will look better than the 99% of the gym rats out there.
  

[dj181]

i've never ever seen a guy get bigger muscles without getting stronger

and i come from a gym that had some elite level top ranked powerlifters in it and also Mike Francios trained at my gym back in the day, so let's just say that i've seen and been around some of the best, but sadly one of those best wasn't me

[Yev33]

  How much stronger can you get if you have been lifting for 7 plus years? Keep banging you head against the wall trying to add 10lbs to a lift?

  A good goal is to try to get stronger through volume. Increasing what you can lift for 4 sets of 10 or 5 sets of 12. Trying to get stronger for that one set to failure will get you to a sticking point quick if you are an experience trainer. Increasing your muscular endurance will build muscle and will carry you further before burn out.

Training to failure for one set or low sets is a valid tool to be used in lifting. It shouldn't be the only tool used.

If you are benching 275 for 4 sets of 10, and a year and half later you are benching 315 for 4 sets of 10 you have gotten stronger.
It doesn't have to be one all out set. Hell, even if you are doing something like squats for 4 sets of 10 with 315 and 3 minute rest periods, and you are able to cut those down to 30 seconds with the same weight reps and sets, you have gotten stronger.

[Donny]

i will put it simply Heavy duty Training Is Heavy Duty Burn Out.

[dj181]

i will put it simply Heavy duty Training Is Heavy Duty Burn Out.

well man, if you apply it correctly, by inserting extra rest days as you get bigger and stronger, then burn out should be avoided

and honestly, in my own case, i can't do that, coz i'm a compulsive individual, and it's near impossible for me to rest so much

but someone with a sane mind should be able to do it without much problems

[Donny]

well man, if you apply it correctly, by inserting extra rest days as you get bigger and stronger, then burn out should be avoided

and honestly, in my own case, i can't do that, coz i'm a compulsive individual, and it's near impossible for me to rest so much

but someone with a sane mind should be able to do it without much problems

dJ i like you...because you follow what you think is right for you.

[dj181]

dJ i like you...because you follow what you think is right for you.

thanks man

i like to think of myself as a true individual and one of my mottos is.... "I don't follow... I LEAD"

[Donny]

thanks man

i like to think of myself as a true individual and one of my mottos is.... "I don't follow... I LEAD"

my Father said to me,"be yourself" i think i live by that.

[Archer77]

dJ i like you...because you follow what you think is right for you.

Stark does too.  Does that mean you like him as well?

[Donny]

Stark does too.  Does that mean you like him as well?

who is Stark ?

[wild willie]

C'mon man you're telling me you can't see the size and density difference between Coleman and Heath, Yates and Dillet, Dex and Shawn Ray. How about the fact that Levrone and Cormier both weighed 20lbs more on stage than Flex even though Flex was taller.

All of these guys are genetic freaks, of course they will all be big and look great. But there is a very clear difference between those that pushed their training weights up, and those that just went through the motions just getting a pump.

Train the way you wanna train, no one will tell you otherwise. I just don't like it when a member like dj181 who has the right idea, has people trying to convince him he is wrong.

Shawn Ray trained rather heavy.......150 pound dumbbell inclines and he also curled 80 pound dumbbells. Dexter trained with pretty heavy weights as well.

[Borracho]

        And I can guarantee you that it was during this time period that he made the most of his size gains. Do I know for sure whether or not Shawn would look like Dex if he trained differently? No. But it's a pretty good comparison between him and Dex since they are both about the same height. Not to mention if I remeber correctly Dex turned pro as bantamweight. What I do know is that the guys with the most muscle mass on their frames that are at the elite IFBB level all pushed their training poundages. Compare Ronnie's first DVD to the Unbelievable or COR and see the difference in the training poundages. When you get to the elite level in IFBB, everyone is abusing drugs, everyone is a genetic freak, and everyone will look better than the 99% of the gym rats out there.
  

Yev, for a natural you seem to know a hell of a lot about these roided up chemical experiments but I still think you're putting too much importance on the look they achieve from what you've seen in a few training videos. It's much more complex than just the training aspect at that level...you should read up on different effects of the drugs used in bodybuilding if you haven't already. Really interesting stuff.

[Borracho]

i've never ever seen a guy get bigger muscles without getting stronger

and i come from a gym that had some elite level top ranked powerlifters in it and also Mike Francios trained at my gym back in the day, so let's just say that i've seen and been around some of the best, but sadly one of those best wasn't me

Yeah....no way around it really. I wish I could grow and stay weak....my joints would love it.

Shawn Ray trained rather heavy.......150 pound dumbbell inclines and he also curled 80 pound dumbbells. Dexter trained with pretty heavy weights as well.

Seems decent enough to me.

[Yev33]

Yev, for a natural you seem to know a hell of a lot about these roided up chemical experiments but I still think you're putting too much importance on the look they achieve from what you've seen in a few training videos. It's much more complex than just the training aspect at that level...you should read up on different effects of the drugs used in bodybuilding if you haven't already. Really interesting stuff.

I am not putting an emphasis on their training as the result of how they look in general, I am highliting the differences in their training in relation to how they look compared to each other.

[Yev33]

Yeah....no way around it really. I wish I could grow and stay weak..

Why are we going back and forth about this then, this is all I am trying to say here.

[Borracho]

Why are we going back and forth about this then, this is all I am trying to say here.

ahaha I don't disagree with you at all it's just wrt the mutants...imo theres a lot more to it than bigger=stronger. But I guess I have to take your word for it since I don't watch training videos.

[dj181]

Yeah....no way around it really. I wish I could grow and stay weak....my joints would love it.

times a gazillion

lifting heavy, especially on legs, sucks fucking ass

and speaking of leg training, my girl is quite happy with my newly gained muscle particularly in my delts, arms, and torso, but she told me that i still need more ass

i think that we're gonna have some struggles about this, but i suppose that i should work on giving her a hot ass, since she has a hot ass for me, as that's only fair right?

in fact, i may just start a new thread asking for ass training advices

[kimo]

at one time mike sais the opposite almost of what was beleived  to work . but bodybuilding is not a scientific endeavor only . if so exercice physiologist . would sport great physique themselves . mike wnated to inject science and thinking in exercice . he was against suplementation too . most of the time .