Author Topic: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.  (Read 5395 times)

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2013, 02:58:21 PM »
I hope you come back to this, Straw.  I want to settle this thing, right here.  

Maybe you can tell me something I don't know--and I am 100% sincere in that.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2013, 02:59:08 PM »
I'm here to learn.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2013, 03:01:39 PM »
...not fight.

Straw Man

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2013, 03:04:29 PM »
If there isn't oversight, how can we be sure it doesn't have basis in reality?  

Do we use our trust, or what?

Was Paul filibustering for oversight?

Did you read Holder memo from March 4th?

After reading it did it seem as though he left the door open for the administration to kill protestors or just random people in cafes?

thats apparentlty what Rand thought after he read it which was why he said he decided to filibuster

Skip8282

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2013, 03:15:53 PM »
I read the text of Holder letter of March 4th and I see nothing that makes me worried at all

I'm not planning any attacks like the examples holder gave in the letter....are you ?

Are you concerned that the government might decide to kill you

If the government wanted to kill you would they need a drone to do it ?





It should make everyone worried.  When they can envision a scenario of removing the policing authority to replace it with using the military against civilians, it's problematic.  Even with the example Holder cited, it would be much more preferable for the DOJ to make the call and have the military serving them...especially considering that counter-intelligence falls right within their scope.

Civilian policing agencies have Constitutional protections ingrained within their work (even though in my opinion, that's becoming more and more eroded).  Military institutions typically do not...excepting perhaps National Guardsman...but I'm not familiar with them having drones (though I don't know).



Jack T. Cross

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #105 on: March 10, 2013, 03:16:59 PM »
Was Paul filibustering for oversight?

Please let me know what you would interpret his filibuster to be for, and whether it would include what is a lack of oversight and process in killing.

Did you read Holder memo from March 4th?

Yes, I read it when you posted it.

After reading it did it seem as though he left the door open for the administration to kill protestors or just random people in cafes?

Absolutely, yes.  It would leave the door open for conceivably anything that would be done without oversight.

Please give me a sincere answer, even if you don't agree.  I want to know why.

Straw Man

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #106 on: March 10, 2013, 03:24:15 PM »




It should make everyone worried.  When they can envision a scenario of removing the policing authority to replace it with using the military against civilians, it's problematic.  Even with the example Holder cited, it would be much more preferable for the DOJ to make the call and have the military serving them...especially considering that counter-intelligence falls right within their scope.

Civilian policing agencies have Constitutional protections ingrained within their work (even though in my opinion, that's becoming more and more eroded).  Military institutions typically do not...excepting perhaps National Guardsman...but I'm not familiar with them having drones (though I don't know).




March 4th memo is on page 1
I cant repost because Im on my phone.
Holder specifically says civilian LE would be by far the most likely response to a terrorist attack and there is nothing in that memo that could lead anyone to the absurd conclusions of RP

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #107 on: March 10, 2013, 03:28:48 PM »
By the way, as a very unamusing little side-note, we're playing along as though it is merely coincidental that such an ability is something that would lend itself, perfectly, to an entity that would seek absolute power.  It would be a necessity for such a thing, in fact.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #108 on: March 10, 2013, 03:40:51 PM »
Come on, guys.  Now's the time to join together.  We're Americans, and we stand against absolute power, more than anything else.  Right?

All the Republicans who backed the GWB administration, now claim to have learned their lesson.  So it's time to loosen up on the Democrats, whose initial instinct told them to give Obama the benefit of the doubt.  

Let's put our differences aside, and call this for what it is.

Straw Man

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #109 on: March 10, 2013, 03:43:47 PM »
By the way, as a very unamusing little side-note, we're playing along as though it is merely coincidental that such an ability is something that would lend itself, perfectly, to an entity that would seek absolute power.  It would be a necessity for such a thing, in fact.

I will try to remember to your prior posts when i get home tonight.

in my opinion if the federal government wanted to kill one it citizens on US soil a drone or anything similar is probably the last thing they would use.   Its far more likely they would do it in a way that would never cause any kind of attention.

I dont believe for a second that RP truly believes the examples he gave.

It was all political theater or he would still be doing it.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #110 on: March 11, 2013, 08:00:40 AM »
 :D

Straw Man

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #111 on: March 11, 2013, 10:02:43 AM »
Please let me know what you would interpret his filibuster to be for, and whether it would include what is a lack of oversight and process in killing.

Yes, I read it when you posted it.

Absolutely, yes.  It would leave the door open for conceivably anything that would be done without oversight.

Please give me a sincere answer, even if you don't agree.  I want to know why.

I guess I have to take Rand Paul at his word (though I don't believe his sincerity, either that he is just stupid)

He gave his reason for the filibuster

Quote
“I can’t ultimately stop the nomination, but what I can do is try to draw attention to this and try to get an answer ... that would be something if we could get an answer from the president ... if he would say explicitly that noncombatants in America won’t be killed by drones. The reason it has to be answered is because our foreign drone strike program does kill noncombatants. They may argue that they are conspiring or they may someday be combatants, but if that is the same standard that we are going to use in the United States, it is a far different country than I know about.”

Soul Crusher

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #112 on: March 11, 2013, 10:52:13 AM »
Lawmakers ask Obama to detail drone policy

 
By JOSH GERSTEIN |
3/11/13 1:21 PM EDT


Eight Democratic lawmakers are urging President Barack Obama to declassify documents detailing the legal basis for his administration's use of drones, both against U.S. citizens and foreign nationals.
 
In a letter sent to Obama Monday, the lawmakers say they're "deeply concerned" about legal claims in a leaked Justice Department white paper that appear to be "overly broad."
 
"Every American has the right to know the underlying legal rationale that ensures due process," says the letter, organized by Rep. Barbara Lee of California and joined by the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, John Conyers (D-Mich.)
 
"Authorizing the killing of American citizens and others has profound implications for our Constitution, the core values of our Nation, our national security and future international practice. The executive branch's claim of authority to deprive citizens of life, and to do so without explaining the legal bases for doing so, sets a dangerous precedent and is a model of behavior that the United States would not want other nations to emulate," the lawmakers write.
 
The letter, posted here, goes on to lay out several questions about the leaked policy, including how it is determined when capture of a terrorist suspect is "feasible" and how the term "imminent threat" is defined "in a way that strays significantly from its traditional legal meaning."
 
The other signers of the letter are Keith Ellison of Minnesota, Raul Grijalva of Arizona, Donna Edwards of Maryland, Mike Honda of California, Rush Holt of New Jersey and James McGovern of Massachusetts.
 
A White House spokeswoman had no specific comment on the new letter, but noted that Obama committed in his State of the Union address in January to work with Congress to make anti-terrorism programs more transparent.
 
"In the months ahead, I will continue to engage Congress to ensure not only that our targeting, detention and prosecution of terrorists remains consistent with our laws and system of checks and balances, but that our efforts are even more transparent to the American people and to the world," Obama said.
 
The letter came five days after Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) drew international attention for a 13-hour speaking filibuster demanding assurances from the Obama administration that the government would not use drones to kill Americans on U.S. soil if they are not engaged in combat. Attorney General Eric Holder provided such an assurance on Thursday.
 
The attention demonstrates significant concern about the issue at both ends of the political spectrum. The extent of interest in the subject from moderate Democrats and Republicans remains to be seen.
 
CORRECTION (Monday, 1:35 P.M.): This post has been corrected to reflect Conyers's position as ranking Democrat on the Judiciary Committee.

The True Adonis

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2013, 06:14:24 AM »
Number of people killed by an Iranian nuclear bomb: 0

Therefore worrying about such a thing is ridiculous and immature.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/rand-paul-drones-filibuster-lindsey-graham-chart-2013-3#ixzz2MsfmG7J4



 ;D
Its quite interesting to me that this issue used to be a so called "liberal" one and now some Republicans are jumping on board.  I see a lot of that happening lately where Republicans are now taking more "liberal" positions.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #114 on: March 12, 2013, 06:16:31 AM »
Its quite interesting to me that this issue used to be a so called "liberal" one and now some Republicans are jumping on board.  I see a lot of that happening lately where Republicans are now taking more "liberal" positions.

I think its more people saw the excesses of W, the continuation under Obama, and sort of backlash against the creeping leviathon state that places all power in unaccountable politicians.

Sort of - "LEAVE US ALONE" 

The True Adonis

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #115 on: March 12, 2013, 06:21:21 AM »
I think its more people saw the excesses of W, the continuation under Obama, and sort of backlash against the creeping leviathon state that places all power in unaccountable politicians.

Sort of - "LEAVE US ALONE" 
Took a while for Republicans to wake up.  I personally don`t have a problem with drone strikes on enemy combatants if it can be demonstrated that they have committed an act of war.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #116 on: March 12, 2013, 09:24:46 AM »
I guess I have to take Rand Paul at his word (though I don't believe his sincerity, either that he is just stupid)

He gave his reason for the filibuster

I have to hope he's being sincere.  Everyone should hope he is sincere.  But if you're suspicious of a politician's sincerity, it becomes hard to blame you.

Looks to me as though he wanted to force the Obama-Holder gang to better reveal their intentions.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #117 on: March 12, 2013, 09:41:38 AM »
Took a while for Republicans to wake up.  I personally don`t have a problem with drone strikes on enemy combatants if it can be demonstrated that they have committed an act of war.

That's what it's all about.  There's absolutely no reason to carry forward as though everything needs to be hidden.

If we've come to the point where there can be no explanation, then we have gone too far.  We have jumped the shark.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #118 on: March 12, 2013, 01:28:32 PM »
So we're talking about granting a cloak of secrecy to the entity that has stolen our privacy.

Nice, huh?

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #119 on: March 12, 2013, 01:34:17 PM »
Nope.  Nothing wrong, here. 

Move along!

tu_holmes

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2013, 01:46:26 PM »
Nope.  Nothing wrong, here. 

Move along!

^^^

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2013, 01:52:06 PM »
Interesting times we're in, no doubt about it. 

Too interesting, in fact.

Soul Crusher

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Straw Man

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Re: Lindsey Graham and McCain attack Rand Paul over Filibuster.
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2013, 04:25:19 PM »
I think most people have an issue with the number of civilian casualties

I don't recall hearing a peep out of Repubs as we were killing thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of innocent civilians in Iraq