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Author Topic: "A bodybuilding workout is not an endurance contest."  (Read 3044 times)
dj181
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« on: November 23, 2013, 05:42:31 AM »

discuss

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY_BEpzhNr0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY_BEpzhNr0</a>
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2013, 05:51:50 PM »

David Young who post here trained in the same gym as the Mentzer brothers back in the day. He said they used more sets than what they wrote about in the magazines. He also said that Viator was using 15 sets a body part for the London Olympia.  

The routines that Mentzer wrote about after he retired he never used during his competing years. Mentzer used high sets and then after being inspired by Jones and Viator trained using a whole body routine for the IFBB Mr. America. From there he split his body in half training legs, chest and triceps one day and back, delts, and biceps the other. He trained four days a week using this. Then it seemed he was inspired by Mr. Florida Frank Calta and he used his rotation for recuperation split. It went like this. Monday: legs, chest and triceps. Wednesday was back, delts and biceps. Friday was a return to legs, chest and triceps. Weekends were off. The new week he would begin Monday with Back, delt and bicep. Wednesday now was legs, chest and tricep. Friday was back, delt and bicep. Every week was rotated. He also didn't cling to days of the week. If he was tired he would take off.

He always wrote during his competing days that he averaged 5 sets a body part. Was this true? According to David Young, no. Was Young counting maybe many warm up sets? I don't know.  

Concerning is bodybuilding an endurance contest. In the world and context of strength training I would say yes. If the whole method of getting big was getting strong we would all be training with low reps trying to get stronger. Bodybuilding muscles are the results of for what is for lack of a better term muscular strength endurance training. Look at the upper bodies of gymnasts. They train for hours. If strength was the magic bullet we would warm up and do one set of of few exercises and call it a day. The majority of champions have use multiple sets.
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2013, 08:06:17 PM »

6/7 days a week in a row is not needed,3/4 is optimul throw in 4/5 is good break up days '
labrada liked m,w,f,sun..every other day
ilike 4 day split up and throw in 5th a total upperbody pump type day do 2 sets of each movements i choose per muscle group.
the main 4 days i split up bodyparts and do abs/calves 2x per wk.
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dj181
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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2013, 06:08:08 AM »

good post oldtimer

the thing about sets is that sets not taken til failure aren't considered "sets" because they do nothing to stimulate growth, according to both Mentzer and AJ

back in his training days Mentzer did roughly 4-6 productive sets ie. sets til failure per bodypart (4 for bis, tris, and traps and 6 for chest, back, legs and delts)

take a listen to this part here 4:22-6:52 this is something very important i believe

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An5-nStvay0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An5-nStvay0</a>
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« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2013, 09:08:48 AM »

good post oldtimer

the thing about sets is that sets not taken til failure aren't considered "sets" because they do nothing to stimulate growth, according to both Mentzer and AJ

back in his training days Mentzer did roughly 4-6 productive sets ie. sets til failure per bodypart (4 for bis, tris, and traps and 6 for chest, back, legs and delts)

take a listen to this part here 4:22-6:52 this is something very important i believe

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An5-nStvay0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An5-nStvay0</a>

yeah ,,but you can see there are not many successful competitive bbers competing that follow his regimine.the problem is that his training was different from the norm and emphasis on drugs extreme drugs is what fuels bbers and muscle they build and retain so training is just a secondary portion of what builds them.i like to train foremost and i think 60/70/80's bbers would or could have benefitted moreso,less dependant on drugs then,they took them and alot but they trained hard too.
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oldtimer1
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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2013, 01:03:46 PM »

good post oldtimer

the thing about sets is that sets not taken til failure aren't considered "sets" because they do nothing to stimulate growth, according to both Mentzer and AJ

back in his training days Mentzer did roughly 4-6 productive sets ie. sets til failure per bodypart (4 for bis, tris, and traps and 6 for chest, back, legs and delts)

take a listen to this part here 4:22-6:52 this is something very important i believe

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An5-nStvay0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An5-nStvay0</a>


Sets that are warm up sets that really doesn't tax you shouldn't count. Talking about work sets, Jones and Mentzer were wrong to say non failure sets don't count. In the world of Power lifting and Olympic lifting do they train to failure all the time? Of course they don't. They cycle their training. Only near the end of their cycle are they going for broke. Were they wasting their time not going to failure for much of their training cycle?

 If you lifted for curls for one set to failure did you exhaust all the muscle fibers? No, you didn't. Muscle fibers fire on or off. If you did 5 sets of curls with the last set being failure due to fatigue you hit more fibers. I'm going to say something radical from a HIT view point. Two sets is better than one. Three sets is better than two but the positive adaptation goes down fractionally with every set.

Maybe a better way to express my view point is the world of track.  Imagine if a coach said every day doing intervals we are going to failure. Okay milers get on the track. Today we are doing 10 x 400 meters. Go all out from the first quarter and I will time you. Tomorrow you are going to beat those times.  That approach might work with beginners but it would wreck seasoned milers times. If a HIT advocate was a track coach he would tell his milers today you are running a mile to exhaustion. We will take 4 days off where you will run another mile trying to beat your time. This takes care of the train to exhaustion principal and the specificity principal. Pure madness.

 I don't think I'm expressing myself coherently. Maybe another time. Lifting to failure is an effective tool in the arsenal of a lifter. If it's the sole tool that a lifting program is based around that is a big mistake that will limit instead of advance progress.  We can only get so strong. We can make a ton of progress though in muscular strength endurance.

I am very familiar with the teachings of Jones and Mentzer. Many HIT advocates are taking Mentzer's theories on recuperation to far by doing three to four exercises done every 3 to 5 days because they have to recuperate since they train so hard. Such bs.  They also preach to avoid any cardio because it cuts into recuperation. Mentzer both biked and ran during his prime but when he retired he preached against any type cardio.  Hit advocates claim the muscle they gain will burn more calories at rest so they don't need cardio. Talk about taking a known concept and corrupting it to fit simpleton thinking.

I trained for so many decades according to Mentzer's advice during his competitive days and not his retirement thoughts. I made great progress. Now in my mid 50's my shoulder joints are shot. I also find I can't train to failure frequently anymore. Like I said previously. Training to failure with low sets is a tool. It can't be your only tool and your sole focus in every training session.  
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dj181
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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2013, 01:22:28 PM »

but here's the thing...

"as you get progressively bigger and stronger the key to making even more progress is to train less"

i was training each muscle every 3-4 days and now im training each muscle every 7-9 days and i'm making better and faster progress (but this is just my own personal experience)
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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2013, 01:29:32 PM »

but here's the thing...

"as you get progressively bigger and stronger the key to making even more progress is to train less"

i was training each muscle every 3-4 days and now im training each muscle every 7-9 days and i'm making better and faster progress (but this is just my own personal experience)
well yeah,,,my the0ry as well...
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2013, 06:58:56 PM »

Training each individual muscle every 7 day to 9 days or is it that you train every 7 to 9 days?  Training a body part 7 to 9 days works due to over lap and it's a proven way to train. If you are visiting the gym every 7 to 9 days as some HIT advocates preach that is nonsense.

To make myself clear one trainer might do Monday: Chest. Tuesday: Back. Wednesday: off. Thursday: legs. Friday: Delt and arms. Weekends off. This type of work out split of training once a week is not a problem. 

This is what many HIT lunatics recommend. Monday: Squats, weighted dips, back rows, military presses. Saturday: Deadlifts, bench, curls then take off 4 or 5 days off again. No cardio. One set to failure. 
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dj181
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2013, 12:34:12 AM »

i'm lucky if i take 2 days off per week

but the thing is, i'd probably make better progress if i trained only about 2 times per week on a 2 or 3 way split routine

i now take 2 or 3 days off per week, but if i can get down to training just once every 3 or 4 days i'd make best and fastest gains me thinks
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« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2013, 09:10:22 AM »

If you want to lift twice a week and have it be effective why don't you use a whole body routine instead of a split?  Start with the biggest body parts and work to the smallest. Pick one or at the most two exercises per body part. This will work and achieve the twice a week work outs you desire.

I used this whole body routine effectively but it's brutal.

Power cleans 3 x 3 then 1 x 1
squats 2 x 8
lunges 1 x 8
standing leg curls 2 x 10

Flat dumbbell bench 2 x 8

Chins 2 x max
Low cable rows 2 x 12

military press 2 x 10
dumbbell laterals 2 x 10

weighted dips 2 x 10

barbell curls 2 x 10

hanging leg raises 2 x max
ab crunch machine 2 x 25

standing calf 2 x 15

neck and grip work.

Routine would take 90 minutes.

I know a true HIT follower would only do three of those exercises listed for one work set but this is a real world routine that gives good fast results.
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« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2013, 10:39:57 AM »

K.I.S.S.       (Keep It Simple Stupid)

Very old gym motto. Many banners & sign's have this hanging in plain sight. Still important basic knowlwdge for progress, which tends to be completly ignored these days. More is usually never better than less, when less is planned and throught out.

Want the workouts to be brief and to the point,  with a somewhat fast pace for BB'ing. 90 seconds between sets and 3-4 minutes between execises. 45 minutes should be the targeted time period for a program based on 8-10 BB'ing reps. TUT  (Time Under Tension) can be critical for muscle growth.  4 to 6 sets per body part should be more than enought if approaching each workout with serious intent. Don't waste your time looking and flexing in the gym mirrors, you can do that insecure ego stuff at home.

For a basic BB'ing strength/size program, might suggest 5X5's, using 4 to 5 exercise max each workout.

  (With working out , it's not how many sets that are done, but how many reps. Sets only break down the total reps into managable units, for a muscle group. You don't expect to do 50 non stop reps for benches, so they may be broken down to 5X10's. A 5X5 program will allow a total of 25 reps per musclegroup, which should be more than enought for advancements in strength and muscle mass)

Full body workouts have given exceptional resuts over the years, as long as not too many exercises are added. The 5X5 system, 2 to 3 times a weeks, can be well designed for full body work. Another version is spliting the body into upper and lower workouts, using 5X5's.

As;   Mon...lowers
        Examples- squats, leg curls, calf raises
        Wed...uppers
        Examples-inclines, BB rows, up-right rows
        Fri....back to Mondays lower body wokout

Following Monday start with upper body, Wed the lower body and Fri upper bodys again. Alternate each Monday workout. Good Luck.
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dj181
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« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2013, 11:30:01 AM »

well ot2 i can only handle 3 or 4 exercises per workout, so it ain't really possible for me to do a full body routine with just 3 or 4 exercises

a 2 way split can work but 3 way might be even better

i'm discovering that i make best progress waiting 8 or 9 days btw bodyparts (except for legs, as i can train them every 5 days since they are "under-trained" ie. not as developed as my upper body)

but here's what's interesting... as i get bigger and stronger i need to take more days between bodypart workouts, just like Mentzer said

i'm just wondering if i'll ever get to the point where i need to wait 3 or 4 weeks between bodypart workouts

on a side note i didn't do any deads for over 3 weeks and then when i went back to do them again i got stronger Huh Huh Huh
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« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 03:31:46 PM »

here's an interview with Mentzer where he talks about how he would have trained back when he was competing after he made his "latest discoveries"

1. Q. I have read many articles of yours and you always advise bodybuilders that they should train with high intensity, once every 5 - 7 days, and every training session should not last more than 20 minutes in order to achieve maximum muscle stimulation. My question to you is, if 20 years ago you had the knowledge that you have today, would you train with the same frequency and duration for a bodybuilding competition or might you change something?

M.M. Given the knowledge I have today, I certainly wouldn′t train in the same fashion I did 20 years ago. In fact, I wrote in my book "Heavy Duty I, "Despite having been the arch-advocate of lesser training [20 years ago] I, too, was still overtaining." What I have learned over the last 11 years, since taking up personal training, is that weight resistance is much, much more stressful than the average bodybuilder might fathom.

Lifting weights places stresses on the body that might be best illustrated by the following. Imagine a flat, horizontal line drawn on a piece of paper from left to right,with the flat line representing zero effort. Now imagine a squiggly sine wave come off the zero effort flat line, the sine wave representing efforts of various sorts. You get out of bed each morning, shower, brush your teeth, walk to your car, drive to work and so forth.

These are small efforts causing the sine wave to barely move above the flat line.

Then, all of a sudden, you come to that point in the day where you do a heavy set of Squats to failure. All of a sudden the sine wave departs straight up off the paper and across the street! The distance from the flat line to the apex of that spike represents not only the greater intensity with the Squats but, also, the much greater inroad into recovery ability than our usual, daily little efforts.

I wrote in my book "Heavy Duty II: Mind and Body" that the idea is not "more is better" or "less is better" but "precise is best"; and as I learned from training close to 2,000 people plus myself that the precise amount of exercise required to induce optimal growth stimulation isn′t nearly as much as you′ve been led to believe or would like to believe.

Remember, the idea is not to go into the gym to discover how many sets you can do or how long you can mindlessly endure. Instead, the idea is to go into the gym as an informed, rational individual and do only the precise amount of exercise required to stimulate growth and no more; then get the hell out of the gym, go home and GROW! A bodybuilding workout, by God, is not an endurance contest!

Last year I was in 80 percent of my shape, and my leg workouts lasted six minutes and upper body workouts 15 minutes, training once every four to seven days.
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« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2013, 03:33:19 PM »

this section should be highlighted, so i'll just post that section here Grin Grin Grin

Remember, the idea is not to go into the gym to discover how many sets you can do or how long you can mindlessly endure. Instead, the idea is to go into the gym as an informed, rational individual and do only the precise amount of exercise required to stimulate growth and no more; then get the hell out of the gym, go home and GROW! A bodybuilding workout, by God, is not an endurance contest!

Last year I was in 80 percent of my shape, and my leg workouts lasted six minutes and upper body workouts 15 minutes, training once every four to seven days.
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2013, 07:02:03 PM »

Realize that Mentzer when he retired after he recovered from mental illness and drug addiction was training clients. I find so many personal trainers are extreme HIT guys. Are you going to hang out with clients for an hour plus or give them a routine that's over in 17 minutes?

I wish nothing but the best for HIT followers. I just don't like their attitude of I have superior intellect because I follow HIT. When it really come down to it no one in the HIT community can even agree on what the proper protocol is for training.

I trained on Nautilus for awhile back in the day. I also was put through the paces at a pure Med X and Nautilus gym about 7 years ago. It was brutal and I literally had trouble standing. I think the whole routine took about 15 to 20 minutes.
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« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2013, 07:58:41 PM »

Volume and endurance are relative terms. An olympic sprinter can maintain max speed for about 40 meters, this would in a way make the 100m sprint an endurance race to some degree. A 10 rep set to failure requires more endurance than a 1 rep max which would make the 10 rep set a test of endurance.  

Volume can go from zero to infinte, the terms low volume and high volume are very vague. One set per bodypart is low volume compared to 5 sets per bodypart. And 5 sets per bodypart is low volume compared to 20 sets per bodypart.

What is the point in all this? This stuff is not as simple and black and white as the HIT theories make it out to be.

A much more logical way to approach this is to acknowledge that there is a volume range that is the most effective for building muscle.

Psychologically it's much easier to feel the benefit of a set taken to complete failure, you have given it all you got and took your ability to it's current limit. But your muscles respond to mechanical work load not your need for self assurance on a job well done.

Talk to anyone that has worked physically demanding jobs and they will tell you that the first several weeks were rough but then got easier as their body adapted to the stress. These people aren't doing tasks to failure but it's the cumulative mechanical toll that they are exposed to.

The HIT theory is way too basic to explain how the human body reacts to stress and adapts, which is exactly why it ends up with training once every 2-3 weeks.
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2013, 04:42:36 AM »

the title of this thread alone reminds me why bbing is irrelevant

you end up a puffed up, lean bodied guy who can't run, can't fight and can't win at anything other than bikini modeling...

is that the modern definition of a man?

i think not
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dj181
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2013, 05:37:46 AM »

that's true actually, but no one said that bodybuilders were "athletes", or at least they shouldn't have ever said that
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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2013, 06:59:55 AM »

that's true actually, but no one said that bodybuilders were "athletes", or at least they shouldn't have ever said that


they call each other warriors....  Tongue

hilarious
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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2013, 03:31:45 PM »

I don't know if you guys are old enough to remember the Superstars on ABC sports. They would take athletes from all sports and have them do different athletic events. Some of the events were a 100 yard dash, half mile run, swimming, biking, bowling, hitting baseballs, rowing a boat, obstacle course and power jerking a barbell taken off of squat racks. They had guys from the NFL, Baseball and other athletes. Every week they would have an episode and I think the week winner went on.

Lou Ferrigno won his week. He won the bike race, weight lifting, rowing a boat, second in the half mile, and he did well in the other events. Very impressive. I think his time in the half mile was somewhere in the very low 2 minute range. In the finals he had a bad day. He was really good at bowling and hitting baseballs but he just had an off day during the finals. He came in second in the weightlifting losing out to one of the most powerful men ever Brian Oldfield the shot put world record holder. Lou's technique jerking a weight over head was really bad. Mike Mentzer also competed one year but he didn't do very well. He was slow as a snail sprinting.

Big Lou also did well in the World's strongest man competition winning the car deadlift over power lifters. 
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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2013, 07:44:48 PM »

I don't know if you guys are old enough to remember the Superstars on ABC sports. They would take athletes from all sports and have them do different athletic events. Some of the events were a 100 yard dash, half mile run, swimming, biking, bowling, hitting baseballs, rowing a boat, obstacle course and power jerking a barbell taken off of squat racks. They had guys from the NFL, Baseball and other athletes. Every week they would have an episode and I think the week winner went on.

Lou Ferrigno won his week. He won the bike race, weight lifting, rowing a boat, second in the half mile, and he did well in the other events. Very impressive. I think his time in the half mile was somewhere in the very low 2 minute range. In the finals he had a bad day. He was really good at bowling and hitting baseballs but he just had an off day during the finals. He came in second in the weightlifting losing out to one of the most powerful men ever Brian Oldfield the shot put world record holder. Lou's technique jerking a weight over head was really bad. Mike Mentzer also competed one year but he didn't do very well. He was slow as a snail sprinting.

Big Lou also did well in the World's strongest man competition winning the car deadlift over power lifters. 
great show,franco blew out his knee carrying refigerator one yr i believe,,,
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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2013, 09:33:28 PM »

I remember watching that on tv when it happened to Franco. He kept saying his leg was dislocated. It was broken. The guy weighed about 175lbs and he was competing against 300lbs plus guys in the World's Strongest man contest.
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2013, 04:31:11 AM »

franco had tiny arms, almost as tiny as mine Grin

if louie really did run the half mile in the low 2 minutes, then that is damn. damn impressive Shocked

i'm thinking about going back to some aerobic conditioning training, but the problem is when i train like that i lose "size" FUCK!!! Angry Angry Angry

it's basically something to do with aerobic and anaerobic training/conditioning interfering with each other and the compromise of results within both aspects, basically you can't be the worlds biggest and strongest man and be the worlds most aerobically fit man at the same time
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2013, 12:26:23 PM »

franco had tiny arms, almost as tiny as mine Grin

if louie really did run the half mile in the low 2 minutes, then that is damn. damn impressive Shocked

i'm thinking about going back to some aerobic conditioning training, but the problem is when i train like that i lose "size" FUCK!!! Angry Angry Angry

it's basically something to do with aerobic and anaerobic training/conditioning interfering with each other and the compromise of results within both aspects, basically you can't be the worlds biggest and strongest man and be the worlds most aerobically fit man at the same time

I will look up that Ferrigno half mile time but I have to go through a lot of old Iron man magazines to find it. I want to say 2:21 but I will get the correct answer. Just give me some time.  True you can't be your strongest and your best at cardio at the same time. I look at it this way. You might build a body like a Ferrari that can go 210 MPH but if you don't have gas in the tank it really is just useless strength because you will run out of gas quickly. On the other hand you can have a huge gas tank (conditioning) but have a small motor (low power). If you train for both there is compromise. Most want to concentrate in one area.  

P.S. I can't find the magazine. If my memory of the event is wrong I apologize.
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