STUPID Republican Voters

[bears]

dude - you didn't even know what I meant

you just made up your own meaning to what I wrote

well are you going to tell us what you meant? 

[Straw Man]

well are you going to tell us what you meant? 

already did

you're the one that decided to infuse my statements with your own meaning

go back and read my posts

[24KT]

already did

you're the one that decided to infuse my statements with your own meaning

go back and read my posts

ARGHHHHH!
Doesn't that just make you want to reach out and slap someone?!

[AD2100]

SHE DIED OF REPUBLICAN POLITICS

[bears]

SHE DIED OF REPUBLICAN POLITICS

I assume you'll ignore all of the horror stories that come out of Obamacare over the next 2 years and chalk it up to unfair journalism.  right?  remember that the overwhelming argument FOR Obamacare were the problems with private health insurance.  buckle your seatbelt because the insurers from the exchange will face the same problems, budgets, and cash flow problems as the private insurers.

but i'm quite certain you won't want to hear it.

[whork]

I guess you haven't.  I apologize.  i'm being a dick. 

but dude I've been called a homo like 9 times in the past 4 hours.  cut me some slack.  only my wife gets to call me that when I refuse to take out the garbage.

See even your wife knows you are gay Bear.

Its okay. You are too stupid to discuss politics but you are not to stupid to be gay.

[Soul Crusher]

See even your wife knows you are gay Bear.

Its okay. You are too stupid to discuss politics but you are not to stupid to be gay.

LMFAO!!!!

[bears]

See even your wife knows you are gay Bear.

Its okay. You are too stupid to discuss politics but you are not to stupid to be gay.

says the guy with Barack Obama's balls in his mouth. 

[whork]

says the guy with Barack Obama's balls in his mouth. 

I'm pretty sure Chewbacca got that covered.

[RRKore]

I assume you'll ignore all of the horror stories that come out of Obamacare over the next 2 years and chalk it up to unfair journalism.  right?  remember that the overwhelming argument FOR Obamacare were the problems with private health insurance.  buckle your seatbelt because the insurers from the exchange will face the same problems, budgets, and cash flow problems as the private insurers.

but i'm quite certain you won't want to hear it.

Yer losing it, mang. 

Cuz are you really calling someone a hypocrite based on your predictions of his future actions in response to your prediction of some future problems?

Holy Minority Report, that seems like a reach.

[RRKore]

did you read my fucking post?  like I said in my previous post, there can be advantages to raising minimum wage.  did you read that?

now raising minimum wage can have a positive effect on the economy.  that's true.  but raising minimum wage in an economy while at the same time raising taxes in that same economy can have disastrous consequences.  we are going through a period of increased taxes, federal, state, sales tax, etc.  and you think this is a good time to raise minimum wage?  dude go back to school.  seriously.  that can't possibly make sense to you.

...

Wouldn't this depend on the level of the min wage and the level of taxation and not so much on whether those levels are going up, down or sideways? 

Because, basically, you seem to be saying that simultaneously raising labor and tax costs will make profitability so unlikely that businesses will need to shut down but that seems to be an oversimplification if there's no reference to what those levels are. 

I agree that if a business that uses a lot of min wage workers  and is being efficiently managed in terms of manpower and barely profitable already, then that business is going to have a big problem with a min wage hike. 

I'm wondering, though, what businesses are we talking about here?  Landscaping, maybe?  I'd honestly like to know more about this.

One thing seems curious to me:  Some states have a special "tipped worker" minimum wage.  States like NC pay waiters and other tipped workers only $2.13/hr.   

But somehow prices at these restaurants is almost exactly the same as at restaurants in states like CA where there is no special shitty min wage for tipped workers.  (I have personal knowledge of this because I recently moved from Raleigh, NC to SoCal.)

Why do you think that is?  Are the CA restaurants just making less profit?

[bears]

Wouldn't this depend on the level of the min wage and the level of taxation and not so much on whether those levels are going up, down or sideways?  

Because, basically, you seem to be saying that simultaneously raising labor and tax costs will make profitability so unlikely that businesses will need to shut down but that seems to be an oversimplification if there's no reference to what those levels are.  

I agree that if a business that uses a lot of min wage workers  and is being efficiently managed in terms of manpower and barely profitable already, then that business is going to have a big problem with a min wage hike.  

I'm wondering, though, what businesses are we talking about here?  Landscaping, maybe?  I'd honestly like to know more about this.

One thing seems curious to me:  Some states have a special "tipped worker" minimum wage.  States like NC pay waiters and other tipped workers only $2.13/hr.  

But somehow prices at these restaurants is almost exactly the same as at restaurants in states like CA where there is no special shitty min wage for tipped workers.  (I have personal knowledge of this because I recently moved from Raleigh, NC to SoCal.)

Why do you think that is?  Are the CA restaurants just making less profit?

ok first off you keep trying to discuss how this will benefit certain states and certain industries.  DON'T.

this is a FEDERAL law.  So it will effect all states.  all businesses who pay minimum wage.  So you can't make the argument that it will have limited effects on some states and not others, that it will have limited effects on some industries and not others.  So you're helping one state or one industry to the detriment of another.  We can't do that.  It has to be an acceptable risk/reward for the majority of states and businesses before they pull the trigger.  

Secondly, there's more to it than simply the effect it will have on the bottom line for the companies.

It is proven by these same economists that you're speaking of that raising minimum wage keeps people out of school longer and keeps them in the workforce making minimum wage longer.  Hence, the rise in unemployment among minimum wage workers.  There's now even more people seeking minimum wage employment.  

I find it funny that you posted that I won't admit that raising the minimum wage can be beneficial.  because I did say exactly that.  Because it can, given the right economic environment.  But in a period of high taxes, low growth, and a problem with unemployment as it is, this is not the time to raise minimum wage.  I am not against it necessarily.  But i'm very skeptical that it could work. raising minimum wage has the ability to hurt the poor just as much as it can help.  

And that enrages the liberals on the board?  Why?  again, i'm not a cheerleader.  i'm trying to use my head and not cheer for a political party.  I think a lot of these guys have to put the pom poms down for a minute.  

[RRKore]

...

It is proven by these same economists that you're speaking of that raising minimum wage keeps people out of school longer and keeps them in the workforce making minimum wage longer.  Hence, the rise in unemployment among minimum wage workers.  There's now even more people seeking minimum wage employment.  

Errr, what?   Can you please explain?  (I'm not sure that you didn't mistype some that, actually;  What does "making minimum wage longer" mean?)

I find it funny that you posted that I won't admit that raising the minimum wage can be beneficial.  because I did say exactly that.  Because it can, given the right economic environment.  But in a period of high taxes, low growth, and a problem with unemployment as it is, this is not the time to raise minimum wage.  I am not against it necessarily.  But i'm very skeptical that it could work. raising minimum wage has the ability to hurt the poor just as much as it can help.  
...

I don't think you've ever said that respected and established economists think that raising the minimum wage NOW is a good idea.  I could be wrong about that, though.

I've seen that in some of your posts you've said it can be beneficial but in those posts you always go on to say that since taxes have been raised recently it's a bad idea.  (It'd be great if you could post links to some professionals who are saying the same thing, btw.)

In some of your other posts you don't mention at all that raising the minimum wage now has very qualified proponents and instead act like not raising it is a no-brainer.   Worse, you act like libs are for the idea strictly because they want to "brag that they know how the hebrews feel the cold" (sorry, that's a Dead Kennedy's reference I couldn't resist) and ignore that they've seen articles that describe how, in the real world, raising the minimum wage has not had negative effects that you're talking about (and that seem reasonable -- Wages goes up, jobs go down DOES make sense, after all.) 

Anyway, it seems like certain states are going to be raising the minimum wage on their own so we'll see what happens in those places. 

[bears]

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/economic-intelligence/2014/05/01/a-minimum-wage-hike-would-hurt-young-workers-worse-than-cbo-estimated

[bears]

http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2014/Murphyminimumwage.html

this is a good one.  read the whole thing.

[AbrahamG]

Can't believe no one picked up on the redundancy in the title of this marvelous thread.

[24KT]

Bears, you do realize that there is already a minimum wage in effect as I type, ...yet certain industries are allowed to pay their workers less? You do realize that don't you?

Can't believe no one picked up on the redundancy in the title of this marvelous thread.

[whork]

Can't believe no one picked up on the redundancy in the title of this marvelous thread.

 

[RRKore]

http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2014/Murphyminimumwage.html

this is a good one.  read the whole thing.

Read it and think it's fairly weak.  

The author fretting about people other than teenagers going after their jobs if we raise the minimum wage seems a little late.  

I don't frequent fast food places much these days but when I do I'm always sure to see the depressing sight of seniors and other adults working jobs that were pretty much the sole province of teens when I was young.  

America's economic woes have apparently had something to do with that, I think.

I'm sure there are numerous online sources that describe the demographic makeup of min. wage earners today vs. those of, say, 15 years ago.  I'll do a little research and be back.

When I get time, I'll try I guess I could try to see if I can find links to back this up

[bears]

Read it and think it's fairly weak.  

The author fretting about people other than teenagers going after their jobs if we raise the minimum wage seems a little late.  

I don't frequent fast food places much these days but when I do I'm always sure to see the depressing sight of seniors and other adults working jobs that were pretty much the sole province of teens when I was young.  

America's economic woes have apparently had something to do with that, I think.

I'm sure there are numerous online sources that describe the demographic makeup of min. wage earners today vs. those of, say, 15 years ago.  I'll do a little research and be back.

When I get time, I'll try I guess I could try to see if I can find links to back this up

I would be interested to hear the demographics too.  he was saying pretty much what i said that the young would stay in the minimum wage workforce longer if the minimum wage goes up.  this was in my econ class in my MST program.  as minimum wage rises, so does the time these kids put off school and stay at the min wage job.

you have to understand that i get on my high horse when i read posts that insinuate that the democratic party pushes for minimum wage because they care about the lower income demographic.  and the Republican party votes against it because they don't care about the lower income demographic.  that kind of ignorant, "I only believe in the good guys and the bad guys" mentality pisses me off to no end.

its a vote getter.  and it doesn't matter if it has negative effects on the economy because this is macroeconomics we're talking about here.  You can spin it however you want.  You can always find something else to attribute any failure to hit benchmarks or rise in unemployment.  shit you've seen how both parties can fuck with and pick apart the unemployment rate.  i mean what does that shit even mean anymore?    

i just hate when people make it sound like such a black and white decision fought by the party who hates poor people vs. the party who loves poor people.  its sounds astoundingly stupid.  i know you don't look at it like that but there's plenty on here who do.  

but there are a lot of economists who think this guy is wrong.  there were a lot of economists who told us Obamacare will be an overwhelming success.  We'll have to hold our breath and see.

[bears]

Errr, what?   Can you please explain?  (I'm not sure that you didn't mistype some that, actually;  What does "making minimum wage longer" mean?)

it means that they stay in the minimum wage workforce longer as a result of raising minimum wage.  kids put off school or go to school longer if they can get a better wage before or while they're in school so that they can more easily pay for school.  these are facts I gathered from economists writing textbooks and research papers in my masters in tax program.  i'm not pulling this out of my ass.    

[bears]

Read it and think it's fairly weak.  

The author fretting about people other than teenagers going after their jobs if we raise the minimum wage seems a little late.  

I don't frequent fast food places much these days but when I do I'm always sure to see the depressing sight of seniors and other adults working jobs that were pretty much the sole province of teens when I was young.  
America's economic woes have apparently had something to do with that, I think.

I'm sure there are numerous online sources that describe the demographic makeup of min. wage earners today vs. those of, say, 15 years ago.  I'll do a little research and be back.

When I get time, I'll try I guess I could try to see if I can find links to back this up

all I see in the demographics is 16-19 and 20+.  they don't seem to break it down any further than that.  i'm assuming that's because most minimum wage workers are young kids, earning money for school.  and a raise in that wage, like I said above would just increase the amount of those young kids seeking min wage jobs and increase the time they stayed at their minimum wage job.

again though.  there are a lot of economists who think this guy is wrong and i'm full of shit.  and there were a lot of economists who told us Obamacare will be an overwhelming success.  We'll still have to wait and see.