ECA - I Fucking love you

[Alpine]

I'm quite certain that was the mechanism by which it spared lean tissue when dieting.  Let me try and dig some research up

EC could be considered "muscle sparing" because anything affecting beta 2 receptors could be. But I would not call is "anabolic" like sometimes people refer to clen being. E/C will increase cortisol (especially if used for a long time) but it's not a huge issue. So will a couple strong cups of black coffee on an empty stomach in the morning. If you want to lower it some, take 11-lean caps from smart powders or get on AAS and dont waste time thinking about it. As for E/C, catecholamines inhibit proteolysis in muscle I believe and is somewhat anti-catabolic. There have been some observations of the E/C group having more muscle at the end of dieting. But IMO, its not as pronounced as with something like clen which can literally be anti-catabolic.

No doubt that if you arent using clen or dont like the sides of clen, ECA or EC is the next best thing.

[ProudVirgin69]

EC could be considered "muscle sparing" because anything affecting beta 2 receptors could be. But I would not call is "anabolic" like sometimes people refer to clen being. E/C will increase cortisol (especially if used for a long time) but it's not a huge issue. So will a couple strong cups of black coffee on an empty stomach in the morning. If you want to lower it some, take 11-lean caps from smart powders or get on AAS and dont waste time thinking about it. As for E/C catecholamines inhibit proteolysis in muscle I believe which is somewhat anti-catabolic. There have been some observations of the E/C group having more muscle. But IMO, its not as pronounced as with something like clen which can literally be anti-catabolic.

Good explanation, makes sense.

[OTHstrong]

EC could be considered "muscle sparing" because anything affecting beta 2 receptors could be. But I would not call is "anabolic" like sometimes people refer to clen being. E/C will increase cortisol (especially if used for a long time) but it's not a huge issue. So will a couple strong cups of black coffee on an empty stomach in the morning. If you want to lower it some, take 11-lean caps from smart powders or get on AAS and dont waste time thinking about it. As for E/C, catecholamines inhibit proteolysis in muscle I believe and is somewhat anti-catabolic. There have been some observations of the E/C group having more muscle at the end of dieting. But IMO, its not as pronounced as with something like clen which can literally be anti-catabolic.

No doubt that if you arent using clen or dont like the sides of clen, ECA or EC is the next best thing.

eca smokes clen in every way, not even close, clen is a distant second at best.

Also studies that show an increase in cortisol are misleading. Almost like making a study saying test e will lower your test levels, which it actually does lower your test levels but replaces them ten fold.

the results of increased cortisol are lost of strength in the gym, a clear contradiction of what ephedrine does as anyone who lifts heavy knows a lift becomes stronger on ephedrine.

Better and stronger workouts, longer workouts, suppress hunger, energy and fat burning makes it king over all easily.

[Alpine]

eca smokes clen in every way, not even close, clen is a distant second at best.

Also studies that show an increase in cortisol are misleading. Almost like making a study saying test e will lower your test levels, which it actually does lower your test levels but replaces them ten fold.

the results of increased cortisol are lost of strength in the gym, a clear contradiction of what ephedrine does as anyone who lifts heavy knows a lift becomes stronger on ephedrine.

Better and stronger workouts, longer workouts, suppress hunger, energy and fat burning makes it king over all easily.

I prefer ECA too. For the reasons you stated, and I just feel better on it. Clen is harsh stuff. But from a raw numbers perspective, clen is going to increase the metabolism more. Does this mean its better, not necessarily. But it is more potent and is anti-catabolic. You cant just say EC is better because technically, clen is a more efficient way to boost metabolism.

Clenbuterol targets beta-2 receptors on muscle and fat tissue. EC is not a direct beta-2 agonist. EC only stimulates the release of noradrenaline which then goes on to interact with fat cells as a nonspecific adrenergic agonist. Big difference and the increase in BMR is noticeable.  

EC gives a net metabolic boost of 2-4% where clen is estimated to be at about 10%. By comparison, DNP is in the 25-30% range. Clen is also legitimately anti-catabolic in nature where EC is not.

[OTHstrong]

I prefer ECA too. For the reasons you stated, and I just feel better on it. Clen is harsh stuff. But from a raw numbers perspective, clen is going to increase the metabolism more. Does this mean its better, not necessarily. But it is more potent and is anti-catabolic. You cant just say EC is better because technically, clen is a more efficient way to boost metabolism. 

EC gives a net metabolic boost of 2-4% where clen is estimated to be at about 10%. By comparison, DNP is in the 25-30% range. Clen is also legitimately anti-catabolic in nature where EC is not.

agree ^^^ on all points, great post 

[no one]

ephedrine fucks up my dick.

not cool.

will not use cause can not hit properly.

[Van_Bilderass]

Several doctors diagnosed these things... not me.  I forgot to mention his type 2 diabetes.

Adrenal burnout is fake huh?  Try taking E and C everyday for several years (50mgs E/400mgs 3x a day).  Then stop taking it.  He could not function and had to go on short term disability.  He was in bed for a whole month recuperating.

Some of you guys will do/say anything to defend your crutches and vices.

Why the attacking style? I wasn't defending "a vice" and nowhere did I say ephedrine, or any medication, was side-effect free. I simply want precision and clarity from second and third hand accounts like this.

Now, 50mg 3x daily ain't shit. That's a common asthma dosage* that some people have been on for decades. Ephedrine was OTC and easily available in 50mg tablets in several countries until a couple of years ago. I've done double that for long periods. It's the caffeine that most take with it that causes a lot of the side-effects. Ephedrine isn't a very strong stimulant on its own.

As far as the adrenals, I assumed you meant "adrenal exhaustion" which indeed is a pseudoscientific term at best. There is adrenal insufficiency, but if your friend had that he was in deep shit and would have had to supplement with cortisone etc. Did he? Second problem with a case of adrenal insufficiency is proving it has to do with ephedrine intake.

See these primers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_exhaustion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_insufficiency

I've come off ephedrine after years of use, with no crazy withdrawals. Never stopped with caffeine though. Coming off stimulants, including, or especially caffeine can make you feel tired. Absolutely. But saying these things blow out the adrenals isn't quite proven. Caffeine is a pretty strong stimulant compared to ephedrine and I haven't seen proof that it causes "adrenal exhaustion" either, though many alternative medicine fans frequently claim this. They can't present any scientific ways to diagnose this state though, which is why it's considered unproven.

* I've posted this study before. See the dosages which caused a lady to have some problems.

Harefuah. 1994 Sep;127(5-6):166-8, 215.
[Ephedrine psychosis].
[Article in Hebrew]
Shufman NE1, Witztum E, Vass A.
Author information
Abstract

Ephedrine has both alpha- and beta-adrenergic activity, and both direct and indirect effects on receptors. Its stimulatory effects on the central nervous system are more prolonged, though less potent, than those of adrenalin. It raises blood pressure both by increasing cardiac output and inducing peripheral vasoconstriction. It is still commonly used as a bronchodilator. However, since prolonged use leads to decreased effectiveness, patients tend to increase the dose themselves. The clinical picture of ephedrine psychosis resembles that induced by amphetamines: primarily a paranoid psychosis with delusions of persecution and auditory and visual hallucinations in a setting of unclouded consciousness. We present a 57-year-old woman who had been taking a usual dose of ephedrine for bronchial asthma (50 mg 3 times a day) for more than 30 years. When her husband died she developed depression, for which she tried to use ephedrine as an antidepressive, increasing the dose to 500 to 1000 mg a day over the course of half a year. She developed paranoid psychosis with delusions of persecution and auditory hallucinations, despite a clear sensorium. Recovery was rapid after ephedrine was gradually reduced to 200 mg a day and a small dose (200 mg) of the neuroleptic thioridazine was added.

[Van_Bilderass]

Clen is also legitimately anti-catabolic in nature where EC is not.

Ephedrine is legitimately anti-catabolic. Studies have shown less nitrogen excretion among other things.

[Da Freak]

noob question, is this a "homemade brew/stack"? can combining the different constituents make up this stack for easy consumption?

[Van_Bilderass]

noob question, is this a "homemade brew/stack"? can combining the different constituents make up this stack for easy consumption?

Of course. Just take caffeine pills with ephedrine. Some propose a 10:1 ratio of caffeine to ephedrine but I would do about 5:1. Say 20-25mg ephedrine with 100mg of caffeine 2-3 times daily to start. Both ratios work according to studies. Aspirin isn't needed, it's pretty unclear if it helps any. Aspirin isn't good on the stomach in the long run. If I did include it I would only take a 81mg baby aspirin with the first dosage, no more.

[Marty Champions]

you guys are insane aspirin damages  the lining of your intestines, say hello to hernias and protruding intestines of peice, RIP aspirin users of peace

[Van_Bilderass]

the results of increased cortisol are lost of strength in the gym, a clear contradiction of what ephedrine does as anyone who lifts heavy knows a lift becomes stronger on ephedrine.

Cortisol isn't really the "bad guy" it's made out to be. The people who believe in adrenal exhaustion think taking stimulants make your adrenals work in overdrive leading to low cortisol eventually. Then you would be in deep shit as cortisol is a very important hormone.

Russian sports scientists/doping experts liked testing cortisol levels in their athletes... low cortisol meant they were taking too many steroids for too long. Solution was to get off or supplement with corticosteroids to "extend the cycle."

[Alpine]

Ephedrine is legitimately anti-catabolic. Studies have shown less nitrogen excretion among other things.

I would argue that to be muscle sparing. It is not considered anti-catabolic by the more proper definition. That would mean it has anabolic properties. Only clen has true anabolic properties. Can you at least agree on that? If so, then you would conclude EC can only be considered "muscle sparing" but not a "true" anti-catabolic i.e. anabolic in nature.

There are a few studies that point to ECA being muscle sparing. Perhaps due to its partitioning effects:

Thermogenic, metabolic, and cardiovascular responses to ephedrine and caffeine in man.
Astrup A, Toubro S.

Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Copenhagen, Denmark.

To develop an appropriate combination of ephedrine and caffeine consisting of clinically relevant doses, we examined the acute thermogenic, metabolic, and cardiovascular effects of different doses of caffeine (C) and ephedrine (E) given separately and in combination to normal subjects. The thermogenic effect after E+C (20 mg/200mg) was larger than that of any other combinations, and E and C exerted a supra-additive synergism on thermogenesis and systolic blood pressure, while being without effect on diastolic blood pressure. The combination also had pronounced effects on glucose metabolism by increasing plasma glucose, insulin and C-peptide concentrations. During chronic treatment the effect of E+C on energy expenditure is maintained, while side effects subside because tolerance develops to its hemodynamic and metabolic effects. During dietary energy restriction E+C promotes fat loss and preserves fat-free mass, which may contribute to its chronic effect on energy balance. In conclusion, the hemodynamic and side effects to E+C are transient during chronic treatment, while the effect on energy expenditure persists. The compound also possesses repartitioning properties, which may be useful in the treatment of obesity.

Here is your nitrogen excretion study. This does not make it anabolic in nature like clen, Brofessor.

Effects of chronic administration of ephedrine during very-low-calorie diets on energy expenditure, protein metabolism and hormone levels in obese subjects.

Pasquali R, Casimirri F, Melchionda N, Grossi G, Bortoluzzi L, Morselli Labate AM, Stefanini C, Raitano A.

Istituto di Clinica Medica 1, Ospedale S. Orsola, University Alma Mater of Bologna, Italy.

1. We investigated the effects of the chronic administration of a sympathomimetic agent on energy expenditure, protein metabolism and levels of thyroid hormones and catecholamines in 10 obese subjects after a 6-week very-low-calorie-diet programme (1965 kJ, 60 g of protein, 45 g of carbohydrates). L-(-)-Ephedrine hydrochloride (50 mg three times a day by mouth) or placebo were administered during 2-week periods (weeks 2-5 of the VLCD programme) in a randomized, double-blind, cross-over design. Five subjects began with ephedrine and five with placebo. 2. The results were analysed separately in the two groups. No difference was found between them as regards weight loss during the very-low-calorie diet and drug treatments. Conversely, ephedrine therapy induced a significantly lower daily urinary excretion of nitrogen (and, consequently, a better nitrogen balance) with respect to placebo, independently of the drug sequence. Daily urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine during ephedrine and placebo treatments were similar. The fasting resting metabolic rate (oxygen consumption, ml STP/min) fell significantly during the very-low-calorie diet in both groups, but this effect was partially and significantly prevented by administration of ephedrine. Diet therapy significantly reduced 24 h urine levels of vanillylmandelic acid and homovanillic acid, which, however, increased to pretreatment values during ephedrine treatment. No significant effects were shown on 24 h urinary concentrations of adrenaline, noradrenaline and dopamine during the very-low-calorie diet and/or ephedrine treatment.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

Safety and efficacy of long-term treatment with ephedrine, caffeine and an ephedrine/caffeine mixture.

Toubro S, Astrup AV, Breum L, Quaade F.

Research Department of Human Nutrition, Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, Fredriksberg, Copenhagen, Denmark.

In a randomized, placebo-controlled, double blind study, 180 obese patients were treated by diet (4.2 MJ/day) and either an ephedrine/caffeine combination (20mg/200mg), ephedrine (20mg), caffeine (200mg) or placebo 3 times a day for 24 weeks. 141 patients completed this part of the study. All medication was stopped between week 24-26 in order to catch any withdrawal symptoms. From week 26 to 50, 99 patients completed treatment with the ephedrine/caffeine compound in an open trial design, resulting in a statistically significant (p = 0.02) weight loss of 1.1kg. In another randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled 8 week study on obese subjects we found the mentioned compound showed lean body mass conserving properties. We conclude that the ephedrine/caffeine combination is effective in improving and maintaining weight loss, further it has lean body mass saving properties. The side effects are minor and transient and no withdrawal symptoms have been found.

Compare to clen which has clearly identified anabolic properties making it a true enemy of catabolism unlike whey or HMB. http://romanoroberts.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Clenbuterol.pdf

If you want to call muscle sparing aka promoting positive nitrogen balance/retention, "anti-catabolic," then fine. That would be true. But the reality is that would make simple whey anti-catabolic by that definition. The same with HMB, glutamine, food, any number of supplements/food would be "anti-catabolic." To me, the term anti-catabolic and/or its converse, anabolic, should be reserved for something that TRULY has anabolic properties outside of the realm of food. i.e. Clen. EC does not fit that category.  

[OTHstrong]

Cortisol isn't really the "bad guy" it's made out to be. The people who believe in adrenal exhaustion think taking stimulants make your adrenals work in overdrive leading to low cortisol eventually. Then you would be in deep shit as cortisol is a very important hormone.

Russian sports scientists/doping experts liked testing cortisol levels in their athletes... low cortisol meant they were taking too many steroids for too long. Solution was to get off or supplement with corticosteroids to "extend the cycle."

oh I see. Of course stimulants should be cycled and not prolonged

[OTHstrong]

you guys are insane aspirin damages  the lining of your intestines, say hello to hernias and protruding intestines of peice, RIP aspirin users of peace

well 15 years later and nothing wrong here 

[OTHstrong]

ephedrine fucks up my dick.

not cool.

will not use cause can not hit properly.

lmao, 

[OTHstrong]

noob question, is this a "homemade brew/stack"? can combining the different constituents make up this stack for easy consumption?

eca stack is a 30 year old protocol, nothing knew about it.

200mg caffeine, 25mg ephedrine, 80mg of aspirin

[Van_Bilderass]

It is not considered anti-catabolic by the more proper definition. That would mean it has anabolic properties.

If you want to call muscle sparing aka promoting positive nitrogen balance/retention, "anti-catabolic," then fine. That would be true. But the reality is that would make simple whey anti-catabolic by that definition. The same with HMB, glutamine, food, any number of supplements/food would be "anti-catabolic." To me, the term anti-catabolic and/or its converse, anabolic, should be reserved for something that TRULY has anabolic properties outside of the realm of food. i.e. Clen. EC does not fit that category.  

As you see there doesn't appear to be very strict agreed-upon definitions for these terms. I don't know if I've even seen the term anticatabolic in scientific literature. I think I've seen antiproteolytic though. The term anticatabolic was probably first used in some supplement ad (I remember Anti-Catabolic Fuel by Twinlab).
I don't think we can agree or disagree unless we define the terms.

I simply meant that ephedrine helps conserve muscle during diets. If clen has noticeable anabolic properties in humans, or if its muscle preserving qualities (anabolic, anticatabolic, whatever) are stronger than that of ephedrine is unknown. When clen came first came on the scene bodybuilders had high hopes for it (based on animal data) but it didn't quite pan out that way.

If I had 2 weeks to lose as much fat as possible I would pick clen over ephedrine. For a 3-4 month diet I would probably pick ephedrine. If I didn't have to choose, I would start with ephedrine and add clen later on in the diet.

[AbrahamG]

LMFAO.  Big ups to you.  Respect.

[TEMPER]

Of course. Just take caffeine pills with ephedrine. Some propose a 10:1 ratio of caffeine to ephedrine but I would do about 5:1. Say 20-25mg ephedrine with 100mg of caffeine 2-3 times daily to start. Both ratios work according to studies. Aspirin isn't needed, it's pretty unclear if it helps any. Aspirin isn't good on the stomach in the long run. If I did include it I would only take a 81mg baby aspirin with the first dosage, no more.

Actually aspirin is arguably the most important part of the stack...

Aspirin = salicylate

Salicylate = Activate enzyme AMPK

Enzyme AMPK = Key regulator of cell metabolism

Thusly; Aspirin switches on AMPK, increasing the breakdown of fat.

There are studies on this nowadays...

[Van_Bilderass]

Actually aspirin is arguably the most important part of the stack...

Aspirin = salicylate

Salicylate = Activate enzyme AMPK

Enzyme AMPK = Key regulator of cell metabolism

Thusly; Aspirin switches on AMPK, increasing the breakdown of fat.

There are studies on this nowadays...

Please hook me up. Let me see this shiat.

[Roger Bacon]

First thing that comes to mind:

[Big Chiro Flex]

LOL!!!

[TEMPER]

Please hook me up. Let me see this shiat.

One important one would be by this man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grahame_Hardie

I believe the aspirin thing was discovered during this 2011 cancer related study by him:

http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/bst/039/bst0390001.htm

I think he was studying AMPK itself and it's effects on diabetes and cancer. One major breakthrough would be if they found a new salicylate delivery method because the long term use of aspirin has an effect on the COX-1 enzyme that has to do with mucus coatings in the digestive tract, which is why aspirin and NSAIDs etc. eventually cause at the very least small ulcers.


Pretty interesting stuff.

 "I'm particularly interested in these protective effects against cancer," says Hardie. "Further research may help us discover another way of taking salicylate, other than aspirin, which has fewer side-effects."

He explains that anti-cancer effects may be due to the activity of AMPK, as diabetic drugs that target AMPK in cells are also associated with a reduced incidence of cancer

[Van_Bilderass]

One important one would be by this man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grahame_Hardie

I believe the aspirin thing was discovered during this 2011 cancer related study by him:

http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/bst/039/bst0390001.htm

I think he was studying AMPK itself and it's effects on diabetes and cancer. One major breakthrough would be if they found a new salicylate delivery method because the long term use of aspirin has an effect on the COX-1 enzyme that has to do with mucus coatings in the digestive tract, which is why aspirin and NSAIDs etc. eventually cause at the very least small ulcers.


Pretty interesting stuff.

 "I'm particularly interested in these protective effects against cancer," says Hardie. "Further research may help us discover another way of taking salicylate, other than aspirin, which has fewer side-effects."

He explains that anti-cancer effects may be due to the activity of AMPK, as diabetic drugs that target AMPK in cells are also associated with a reduced incidence of cancer

Alright, interesting. Though we need studies in humans to see what it really does, what doses we may need etc.

Like a study on this says:

However, one caveat is that the doses of aspirin required to activate AMPK in vivo may be higher than those used in most human studies.