Author Topic: What should a first time juicer take?  (Read 23487 times)

OTHstrong

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What should a first time juicer take?
« on: May 13, 2014, 03:46:58 PM »
I am asking this question because this is a common PM I get from naturals who want to cross over.

So let's say 25 years old, training for 7 years, has done his research.

Let's hear some thoughts gentleman so we can get some advice to people who are thinking of their first cycle.  ;) 8)

Core

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2014, 06:18:52 PM »
Assuming they are a good natural and committed to run a good first cycle?

250mg test
500mg NPP
After 10 weeks replace the NPP with
Tren A 350mg for 6 weeks
final 4 weeks up tren to 500mg

20 week first cycle i would do if i was starting again from natural.

AbrahamG

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2014, 06:20:23 PM »
500mg's of test for 10 weeks.

ESFitness

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2014, 07:40:17 PM »
if I could do it over again...

first 10weeks
gram of cyp
500 deca
50mg/day proviron

second 10 weeks
gram of cyp
500 tren enanthate
50mg/day proviron

1mg arimidex/day the two days post cyp injections.


in my experience, there's no such thing as overkill.. if you don't experience 'side effects', and you can afford it, why not use higher doses? I've never understood the "overkill" thinking.. "that's too much, you don't NEED that much".. ect... well, we dont' NEED to use steroids to grow muscle either, do we? but we are, so why short change yourself... that's like having 1 arm bigger than the other, and instead of training the smaller arm harder, you neglect the strong arm in hopes of it not making the other arm look bad.

does a Lambo need 700hp to do 75mph on the freeway? no. not when a '96 civic has 170hp and can still do 75mph... just takes longer to get there.

OTHstrong

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2014, 11:00:45 PM »
Test and nothing else in my opinion then after they see how they do they can try other shit but start low and easy
500mg's of test for 10 weeks.
I am leaning towards this^^

Plenty can be gained on test alone first time out

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2014, 11:24:10 PM »
500mg test is enough  for like 10 weeks and slowly stepping up the game aftrr. But this is a hard question its what there goals are but that is what i recomend flr gymrats that dont have plans to compete...they have time to up the game

TEMPER

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2014, 12:01:23 AM »
After 7 years of committed natural training the person should know their body, and how it reacts to calorie ranges, cardio, water retention, macro ratios, training frequency - high volume low volume etc.

This entire dynamic changes when you add in even 250mg test a week. For example: on 250mg test a week you would maintain way more muscle mass on a serious "cut" than you ever would naturally.

And this is why I advocate starting with low dose test only for(ever) the first year...Yes a year. At 25 if you run serious cycles until you are, let's say 30, you will never recover 100% production. Or at least you should just assume you won't because it is a side effect...You won't know until you get there. It could never recover after 1 8 week "prohormone" cycle..So why "cycle" in the first place..

If you are 15% bf or higher: 250mg test to cut down to 8%, should take 12 weeks conservatively. It will give you time to learn what test feels like, how your body reacts to it, mess around with calories etc., learn how to use syringes, sterile practices etc. The subtleties of using injectables.

Once at 8%: 500mg test 500mg EQ spend the next 20 weeks putting on 1lb of weight per week. Be patient and super consistent.

After this it is really up to the guy, do different stuff...

Some fun intermediate ones..
200 test 500 tren 75 anavar.  Get insanely strong...
200 test 2 grams of EQ. Put on actual muscle and not bloof...Lee Haney pounded EQ by the gram. Very mild stuff.
1 gram of test with 4 weeks superdrol, then dry out and cut on 250 test, and var, depleted as fuck...the week before your beach vacation, start the anadrol and carbs to fill up, pussy pulling stuff here...

falco

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2014, 03:02:09 AM »
From what i have learned at getbig 6 grams is the sweet spot no matter what you use, but for beginners 4 grams should be the best.

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2014, 03:49:06 AM »
Dbol only cycle if scared of needles. Tapering up and down dosage

500mg Test only if willing to inject.

Combine test and dbol for next cycle. Add deca for the classic test, deca and dbol cycle for cycle 3.

OTHstrong

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2014, 06:31:18 AM »
After 7 years of committed natural training the person should know their body, and how it reacts to calorie ranges, cardio, water retention, macro ratios, training frequency - high volume low volume etc.

This entire dynamic changes when you add in even 250mg test a week. For example: on 250mg test a week you would maintain way more muscle mass on a serious "cut" than you ever would naturally.

And this is why I advocate starting with low dose test only for(ever) the first year...Yes a year. At 25 if you run serious cycles until you are, let's say 30, you will never recover 100% production. Or at least you should just assume you won't because it is a side effect...You won't know until you get there. It could never recover after 1 8 week "prohormone" cycle..So why "cycle" in the first place..

If you are 15% bf or higher: 250mg test to cut down to 8%, should take 12 weeks conservatively. It will give you time to learn what test feels like, how your body reacts to it, mess around with calories etc., learn how to use syringes, sterile practices etc. The subtleties of using injectables.

Once at 8%: 500mg test 500mg EQ spend the next 20 weeks putting on 1lb of weight per week. Be patient and super consistent.

After this it is really up to the guy, do different stuff...

Some fun intermediate ones..
200 test 500 tren 75 anavar.  Get insanely strong...
200 test 2 grams of EQ. Put on actual muscle and not bloof...Lee Haney pounded EQ by the gram. Very mild stuff.
1 gram of test with 4 weeks superdrol, then dry out and cut on 250 test, and var, depleted as fuck...the week before your beach vacation, start the anadrol and carbs to fill up, pussy pulling stuff here...
a lot of good info in this post

On a side note though, my last blood work after not injecting for only a few months was perfect, my test levels were normal, full production back no problem.

efanhowz

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2014, 07:13:36 AM »
500mg test
Easy, simple,  know what to expect with testosterone

If I could do it over I would have used :
500mg to cut for 12 weeks
then another 12weeks to bulk on 750test and add either. 600mg deca or eq

The most biggest mistake most make is trying to gain weight when you are %15 body fat

Simple Simon

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2014, 09:01:07 AM »
250mgs test e a week for 16 weeks

phreak

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 12:16:26 PM »
250mgs test e a week for 16 weeks

Agreed with this. This is already so much over normal levels that results should be very significant if all parameters are in order.

Hell, I've been on 325 mg/w total, and just told my wife I needed to reduce to 225 mg/w* because after 7 months of his I am still growing! Slow and steady, don't get injured from rapidly increasing weights, don't get depressed when coming off dosages which are 10 times higher. In retrospect this is what I wished I had done.



*dropping from 125 mg test + 200 mast weekly to 125 test + 100 tren weekly. Grown out of yet another jacket in the last six weeks.  :-\

Core

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 01:02:11 PM »
TL;DR- Dont be a pussy, use low test with a solid dose of an anabolic like NPP, and change your primary anabolic halfway thru to keep gains flowing steady. Smart usage of hormones in effective dosages and in the right combos along with solid training and diet are the key to success.

Some good and bad advice in here IMO especially about test. I don't disagree on a test only first cycle, as you will gain a fair bit and most will be happy with it... But you're not going to look like a bodybuilder really, only taking half a g of test. You can cry all you want that its all down to diet and whatnot, but the fact of the matter is that NO BODY ON THEIR FIRST CYCLE IS AT AN IDEAL POSITION TO BEGIN ANABOLIC STEROIDS. You start gear for a reason and that is because you are unhappy with how you look naturally. You can have all the natural training in the world, but the moment you do your first pin it is a totally different world.

The problem with a test only cycle is 99% of people who do a test only cycle are fucking retards and have no clue what they are doing. They either get fat as shit, gain a little then lose it when they come off, OR the 1% that look amazing on their first test only cycle.

The reason I DO NOT advocate a test only cycle is simply because a first time user is very likely to look like a pile of dog shit because of the aromatization of say 500mg Test, and thus be turned off to the magic that intelligent and planned AAS use can achieve. And yes, Steroids ARE magic if you know what you are doing and use high quality products (again, something most people do NOT have access to; the right knowledge, and the quality gear).

There are a lot of variables for a first timer, as most first timers do not start in an ideal situation of having gotten to a good 8% or below bf without hormones. Most start at a higher fat level, and experience the god awful estrogen side effects test at half a gram will give for a first timer at 15%.

The best advice I can possibly give is this.

Natural training is important, but I see nothing wrong with a person carrying a decent amount of muscle mass, with even as few as 6 months of consistent training and eating under their belt, doing a cycle.

4 conditions must be met in my opinion to get the most out of a first cycle.

1- Knowledge of training- must be able to train and stimulate the muscles to the fullest. Anyone can learn to train their body in 6 months.
2- knowledge of food. the word nutrition needs to be taken out of body building. Nutrition is something naturals care about. X amount of protein per meal and all that bull shit. Just fucking eat until you are full. Eat carbs and protein. And veges if you wish as well. Eat when hungry, eat until satisfied and make sure it is good stuff that your body can use to build muscle. Counting macros is for skinny chumps and delusional idiots. Ain't nobody got time for that shit.
3- Love of bodybuilding. You have to really love it, to stick a needle in your ass and shoot synthetic hormones into your body, hormones you have no idea what will they will do to you. Not only that, but you have to do this consistently. Also, learn to present yourself. So many people have no idea how good they can look if they just learned how to stand up straight with their shoulders back. There's a reason Paul Dillet didn't live up to his potential and it had nothing to do with his condition or size. Guy couldn't present himself to save his life. Use that mirror, you bought it for a reason.
4- Ability to commit to at least 20 weeks of pinning. A 10 or 12 week cycle is going to curtail ones gains significantly. I'll explain- you need to have the gear in your blood for an extended period of time. Your initial few weeks gaining muscle and enjoying the training are all well and good, anyone's going to grow for the first 10 weeks. But for the muscle you have gained to mature and solidify on your physique you need more time on than just 10 weeks. Every one of my cycles have been at least 20 weeks long; even when I am off cycle and training unenhanced, I hold more muscle mass than ANY natural ever can (except for some blacks and maybe some eastern european freaks of nature) at my normal bodyfat, which is around 9%. Steroids build significant muscle that you keep, even if it's not blown up with drugs it's still there. This is what many refer to as muscle memory.

As for my advice to any beginner? Get as lean as humanly possible WITHOUT STEROIDS OR OTHER PED's. but at the same time, DON'T go and turn into a puny twig. Aim for 8%, this is an EXCELLENT place to begin. From here, it's very simple to design a cycle. Fuck asking about goals or any of that, we all want the same thing unless we're talking about a powerlifter here. We want to be lean, and big. What will get us there in the most efficient manner?

Well. You need to know your drugs and what they actually do to your body. Learn what each on does to the physique, how it contributes to a specific 'look' and from there you can piece together your cycle.

I recommended in a post above to use 250mg weekly of a long estered testosterone, this is a bit over a TRT dose and it can build muscle on it's own, but it is mostly to support the heavy hitter- the ANABOLIC STEROID NANDROLONE. In this case I prefer NPP, a short estered version of Nandrolone. Using a higher dosage of androgens than anabolics is a bad idea for most, you will hold a lot of water. I believe NPP to be the best beginner friendly anabolic because it kicks in quickly, water retention is low compared to its big brother Deca, and you will gain a lot of muscle on this anabolic if used in an effective dose (no, a 200mg weekly dosage to 'test the waters'  ::) is not an effective dosage). So to that effect 500mg of NPP weekly is ideal.

BUT ITS A SHORT ESTER! OH NO I HAVE TO PIN MORE THAN ONCE A WEEK.

BIG FUCKING DEAL. The pain in your muscles when you train is 10x more painful than an injection into ones glute or delt. Get used to pinning. The pinning schedule for 250mg Test E and 500mg NPP is 1cc weekly of the test, make it the first pin of the week, and every other day pin 150mg of the NPP. Use 1.5 inch pins into the glutes.

In 10 weeks you should see drastic changes to your body sticking to this routine.

At the 10 week mark, begin pinning Tren Ace (by now you should be fine to handle a low dosage of Tren; this drug is NOWEHERE NEAR AS BAD AS PEOPLE MAKE IT OUT TO BE) 100mg every other day instead of the NPP. At week 16 up the tren to 150mg EOD, you will look ridiculous and you will be VERY happy with your first cycle. Also, the only side effects you are likely to have are night sweats, a bit of insomnia, and maybe some acne if you didn't keep as clean as you should (hygiene is very important on cycle).

Want to have a great start to being the best bodybuilder you can be? Take this advice.

1-10 250mg Test E 500mg NPP, pin the test on your first pin of the week along with 150mg EOD of the NPP
11-16- Keep the test the same, drop the NPP add in Tren Ace at 100mg EOD
17-20 Keep the test the same, or you can halve it to 125mg weekly to get a bit drier, either way up the Tren Ace to 150mg EOD this is what gets you results not a pussy dosage of test E.

If you just want to look like an average gym rat rocking 15 inch arms at 15% 190lbs then go ahead and use your test only cycle. Don't go crying on the boards when you end up with gyno, a shit ton of water retention, and no gains remaining after 6 weeks of being off.

OTHstrong

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 02:19:40 PM »
lots of good info in this thread, very nice. 8)

Simple Simon

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 03:19:10 PM »
if I could do it over again...

first 10weeks
gram of cyp
500 deca
50mg/day proviron

second 10 weeks
gram of cyp
500 tren enanthate
50mg/day proviron

1mg arimidex/day the two days post cyp injections.


in my experience, there's no such thing as overkill.. if you don't experience 'side effects', and you can afford it, why not use higher doses? I've never understood the "overkill" thinking.. "that's too much, you don't NEED that much".. ect... well, we dont' NEED to use steroids to grow muscle either, do we? but we are, so why short change yourself... that's like having 1 arm bigger than the other, and instead of training the smaller arm harder, you neglect the strong arm in hopes of it not making the other arm look bad.

does a Lambo need 700hp to do 75mph on the freeway? no. not when a '96 civic has 170hp and can still do 75mph... just takes longer to get there.

This is a first time user ????????
Thats the type of course a dealer would recommend to a gym rat who had too much money.

ESFitness

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 05:12:39 PM »
This is a first time user ????????
Thats the type of course a dealer would recommend to a gym rat who had too much money.

Really? because if I wanted profit, id have him using products with huge margins.. Like  lots of test and methyltrienolone.

Stick to talking about things you have experience with, like advising 250Mg-wk "cycles" while you use a gram and saying to yourself "I blow those guys away".

mazrim

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2014, 06:13:09 PM »
Personally not a big fan of the 250mg dose test only cycle recommendations. Not near the results most are going to want to see, imo. Not saying you should overdose either but to me that is too little to make it really worthwhile in the overall grand scheme of things. You'll get some results.

And actually depending on how much it aromatizes/body reacts to it you may get little to none. I was receiving pharma grade test cyp at 200mg a week for a bit and put me at just above high normal levels or just below that (would have to look back at my bloodwork). Estrogen was at 75 so a lot was aromatizing as well.



mazrim

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2014, 06:19:29 PM »
Fuck bro why the tren for first time that's overkill this cycle is over the to
I would disagree with this as well. Most issues with tren are caused by paranoia/message boards, imo. All those at my gym who I know don't frequent boards, etc. rarely have any issues except the cardio one comes up a bit.
Not saying you won't but I find that people often get "sides" from simply hearing/reading about them. There are sides to all of them and tren doesn't seem to give any more percentage-wise then any of the others from what I've seen.

ESFitness

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2014, 08:41:36 PM »
Personally not a big fan of the 250mg dose test only cycle recommendations. Not near the results most are going to want to see, imo. Not saying you should overdose either but to me that is too little to make it really worthwhile in the overall grand scheme of things. You'll get some results.

And actually depending on how much it aromatizes/body reacts to it you may get little to none. I was receiving pharma grade test cyp at 200mg a week for a bit and put me at just above high normal levels or just below that (would have to look back at my bloodwork). Estrogen was at 75 so a lot was aromatizing as well.




I seriously doubt 200mg/wk of pharma cyp put you just above high... as that's 2x the regular hrt dose that puts most ppl around 900. 2 days post injection (of 200mg cyp, 13-14days since your last injection) should put you at 1200-1400 and will decrease to 750-900 about 10days post injection.. that's true for 90% of those who use HRT, myself included.. and my test was sub-100 w/o hrt (for many months, not just clean for a few months and got tested).

Simple Simon

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2014, 10:27:32 PM »
Really? because if I wanted profit, id have him using products with huge margins.. Like  lots of test and methyltrienolone.

Stick to talking about things you have experience with, like advising 250Mg-wk "cycles" while you use a gram and saying to yourself "I blow those guys away".
A first time user will make big gains from 250mgs of test if you are cut out for the sport.
If you dont then its not for you.
People should accept their genetic limitations.
Its people like you that simply doesnt respond to sensible dosages and have to take more than pro level dosages to look mediocre.

Take up racket ball.

oni

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2014, 10:43:37 PM »
I'm doing perfectly well on 250mg weekly. Don't see any reason to up the dose or add anything in....
Start low and increase dose slowly. I wouldn't come off! Perhaps after a year if I was happy with the size I had. You'll grow better with a good dose of testosterone than a low dose + some anabolics so I don't think anything but testosterone is needed at the beginner level. 500mg of test a week over 2 years with decent training will have you looking pretty large

ESFitness

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2014, 01:05:28 AM »
A first time user will make big gains from 250mgs of test if you are cut out for the sport.
If you dont then its not for you.
People should accept their genetic limitations.
Its people like you that simply doesnt respond to sensible dosages and have to take more than pro level dosages to look mediocre.

Take up racket ball.

people like me? lol.. have you read any of my posts? I've said repeatedly that I look the same, give or take hardness and vascularity, whether I use 1g or 3g or 6g.

and how many people actually QUIT bodybuilding because 'it's not for them'? are you really that clueless? lol...

like you're the bodybuilding gatekeeper, with the say-so of who gets to train and use drugs... you have a problem with me, yet your little buddy Autismhalo is on plenty of drugs and has yet to break the 200lb barrier. lol... fucking clueless.

OTHstrong

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2014, 01:58:54 AM »
people like me? lol.. have you read any of my posts? I've said repeatedly that I look the same, give or take hardness and vascularity, whether I use 1g or 3g or 6g.

and how many people actually QUIT bodybuilding because 'it's not for them'? are you really that clueless? lol...

like you're the bodybuilding gatekeeper, with the say-so of who gets to train and use drugs... you have a problem with me, yet your little buddy Autismhalo is on plenty of drugs and has yet to break the 200lb barrier. lol... fucking clueless.
lmao ;D

d0nny2600

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Re: What should a first time juicer take?
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2014, 04:11:52 AM »
lmao ;D
What about starting with 6g of peace