Author Topic: Huge stock market correction coming  (Read 21453 times)

Gonuclear

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2014, 10:29:13 PM »
Don't forget that the largest corporate loans made prior to 2008 are starting to reach the end of their life (5-10y loans). The belief in a market recoil is based on these loans turning default. The question is what will happen IF these loans default? After all, these loans were made under the assumption of pre-crash market values, pre-crash hedges and pre-crash leverages. The total amount of burrowed by the large corporations/institutions dwarf the amount burrowed by the pre-crash private house sector.

The problem is that the mathematical models in the risk management sector were "lackluster" to say the least prior to 2008, thus back then large corporations could get away easier with larger leverages. This was mainly because most models didn't assume converging dependence in the outer tails of the used distribution, a thing which seems obvious now to include. In laymen terms, if a crash happens, most sectors will crash. Older models didn't take this into account, which was one reason why the banks and institutions could get away with $1:60 leverages. Thus, loans were made under the assumption that rebalances could be made continuously through these leverages.

Ofcourse, loans have been renegotiated, and some have had their loans terminated earlier (premature default), but there still is a hefty amount of money tied up in loans which will never be repaid.

It is still a hard question to answer, and as a physicist within the financial sector I don't like the "fortune telling" of economists. I prefer raw numbers, as they can be viewed in an objective manner. The data indicates some form of major recoil, but it is till too early to make assumptions of any repercussions.


Excuse me, but you don't sound much like a physicist.  "Major recoil"? 

pedro01

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #76 on: September 04, 2014, 12:31:13 AM »
I'd pay no attention to a "phsyicist" or other type of market "technical expert".

They all work on the sell side of the industry. None of them are traders.

Bottom line is that the toughest trade in the world is a major macro reversal call.

Sure - lots of people will scream that the technicals are bad - but they can scream it for years or months before being "proven" right. You simply cannot trade that way. Partly because you'll hold positions far offside for long periods and partly because of opportunity cost of having margin tied up in unprofitable positions.

Also - this market could pull back 20% and it would only take us back to mid-April or early Feb prices. I'd wouldn't even call that a huge correction.

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2014, 02:15:36 AM »
That crash just moved forward at a quickening pace in my opinion. France is pissed off,
...and before you start making jokes about the French, they have the 2nd strongest economy in the EU

The Quickening Demise of the US Dollar

Lost in the tumultuous news cycles of the past few weeks was this shell-shocker: The United States imposed a massive $9 billion fine on BNP Paribas, the largest bank in France, for trading with countries that are under U.S. embargo. In addition to this fine was a penalty of not being able to transact in US Dollars for one year.

The fine is extremely large and reflects the American administration’s anger at France. The French are angry as well. They are unhappy at being under the thumb of American regulators due to their exposure to global transactions in USD.

Why does this demand your attention?

First, the fine is against international law because the U.S. is applying its own law extra-territorally. American sanctions are America's affair – at least they’re supposed to be. But lately, the U.S. has been forcing everyone else to play by its rules. In May, the U.S. fined Credit Suisse $2.6 billion for not enforcing U.S. tax laws. Then came the implementation of FATCA on July 1. So the United States wants the international banking community to act not only as its spies, but as its tax enforcement as well.

This entire episode will hasten the decline of the USD as a reserve currency and trading vehicle as nations such as France move away from the dollar to avoid similar incidents in the future.

The French are not known for their adherence to the American view of human rights and the moralistic ideals the U.S. has foisted upon the world over the last fifty or more years.

Washington’s dubious justification for this breach of international law is that the transactions took place in U.S. dollars. Their currency, their business, right? Maybe. But here’s the problem: The international community is quickly figuring out a solution to that little bugaboo.

What happens to that bully down the street when he gets old? Everybody gets old and frail eventually. Even the nasty, sneering lunk who steals everyone’s lunch money realizes one day that he has become a toothless, toddling old fart that no one is afraid of anymore. Everyone stops worrying about him and can go on about their business with one less problem to deal with. But what of the bully? What happens to him?

On the global scene, the United States appears to be that bully. And the bully is indeed getting old and frail. So, now what?

They’re still a bully, to be sure. The fact that they extracted a huge fine from BNP Paribas, a foreign-owned bank, for violating U.S. sanctions against Iran, Cuba and Russia that they never had a say in… well, that’s a bully for you. They throw their weight around, say who you can and can’t talk to, say who you can and can’t sit with at the lunch table, and if they catch you doing it, they chase you down, give you a wedgie, dangle spit over your face and steal your lunch money. And you pay it. Grudgingly. Because you are small. But you go home and immediately plot ways to get around the neighbourhood bully. You might take karate classes. You might work to get bigger and stronger so you can fight back. You might band with other victims to find strength in numbers. You might find alternate routes to and from school. But one thing is for certain. You won’t put up with it forever.

And that’s what’s happening around the world.

The French Finance Minister, in early July, called for a ‘rebalancing’ of currencies used in world trade–and a lessening of the importance of the USD in international finance.

Suddenly other countries are talking to one another. They’re banding together and figuring out how to get strong enough to fight back against the U.S. Just this week, Belgium sat down with BNP to see “what could be learned” from this judgment. Officials from the European Central Bank are not even being coy about what lessons they are learning: Diversify out of the dollar, ASAP. Christian Noyer, governor of the French National Bank and member of the ECB’s governing board, recently said this in an interview:

“Beyond [the BNP] case, increased legal risks from the application of U.S. rules to all dollar transactions around the world will encourage a diversification from the dollar. BNP Paribas was the occasion for many observers to remember that there has been a number of sanctions and that there would certainly be others in the future. A movement to diversify the currencies used in international trade is inevitable. Trade between Europe and China does not need to use the dollar and may be read and fully paid in euros or renminbi. Walking towards a multipolar world is the natural monetary policy, since there are several major economic and monetarily powerful ensembles. China has decided to develop the renminbi as a settlement currency. The Bank of France was behind the popular ECB-PBOC swap and we have just concluded a memorandum on the creation of a system of offshore renminbi clearing in Paris…”

This is a shot across the bow of the U.S. by a close ally and is in concert with efforts by Russia and the other BRICS countries to reduce their dependence on the American currency. This will lead to a loss of financial power by the United States and, over time, will harm the American economy.

It isn’t just France that the U.S. has been targeting. A recent article noted that many other foreign entities are in the U.S. government’s crosshairs: “Lately, the U.S. has been forcing everyone else to play by its rules.

The United States needs to understand that other sovereign countries don’t like to have their behavior dictated to them by the lone superpower in the room, even if they are allies and rely on American defense protection.

This conflict among friends highlights a broad shift in global finance and geopolitical realities. America is becoming weaker by the day financially as they spend money they don’t have and print money as fast as they can like a third world banana republic... this behavior will have consequences.

We are seeing these effects as the world shifts away from USD hegemony. Countries want to hold their assets in a currency that will hold its value. That is not happening with the USD. The Chinese Yuan is rapidly emerging as a counter reserve currency and trading vehicle.

This shift is only hastened and reinforced by American heavy-handed actions in dictating terms to others that trade in dollars. The problem was recently summed up rather eloquently with the statement:
“The United States is bullying itself right out of reserve currency status.

Just as with FATCA, the U.S. is snooping where it has no right to snoop. But the more they do this, the more they bully others, the sooner other nations will find a way around the bully. And then where will that leave the U.S.? Where will that leave the dollar? Where will that leave YOUR savings, YOUR retirement, or any of those assets you own that are denominated in dollars? Where will that leave any of us?”

So there you have it: The United States is bullying itself right out of reserve currency status. And for what? As some façade of a moral crusade against the nations they have under embargo?

The U.S. government appears to be painting everyone into a corner. If you haven’t already protected your portfolio with precious metals, we urge you to get started today.

The bottom line is that people need to make sure their portfolios are hedged against a long-term decline in the value of the American dollar and the loss of the bid the currency has enjoyed since the Bretton Woods agreement at the end of World War II. The world is changing, and these paradigm shifts will have real negative effects on the U.S. economy, American wealth, and anything tied to paper currencies. America's lack of fiscal responsibility is only hastening this reality.

In the face of the dollar’s ongoing decline, as more and more nations align against America's currency, there is a company that has helped thousands of people across 120+ countries, including Americans, to move their savings out of the dollar, out of harms way, and into physical precious metals, because I'm sure you'll agree... the most important economy is the one in your own home...   :D
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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #78 on: September 05, 2014, 01:34:24 PM »
Major macro reversal called just right within a percent or 2 and within a week or 2 = lucky guess.

The signs of a top or bottom (various macroeconomic factors, extremely high or low buy / sell ratio and high or low volume starting to go the other way, etc) can be there for extended periods, and the markets can continue moving in their current direction for months or years despite these things. Peter Schiff is even saying he's no longer bearish in the short term because he thinks the Fed will likely keep printing and pumping for a while.

I doubt anybody called EVERY top and bottom on even any one major index in the last decade within a percent or two or within a few days or so. Those that I know of who called for the big crash of late '07 to early '09 and got it anywhere near right have also been calling for another crash for about 5 years now.

Nobody knows. The richest and smartest don't even try to guess - they'll gladly tell you it's foolhardy.
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Tedim

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2014, 01:43:00 PM »
I'm in good shape....deflation, I'll buy more shit.....inflation, I'll pay off all the shit I already bought. And all is right with the world.

24KT

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2014, 09:45:59 PM »
I'm in good shape....deflation, I'll buy more shit.....inflation, I'll pay off all the shit I already bought. And all is right with the world.

??? Don't you mean the other way around??

In times of DEflation... that's when you sell stuff & acquire cash. Your cash goes alot further in deflationary times.
In times of INflation, you buy things before prices go up further

DE-flation = Exchange things for cash
IN-flation = Exchange cash for things
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pedro01

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #81 on: September 06, 2014, 12:09:02 AM »
Buy high, sell low.

What could possibly go wrong?

visualizeperfection

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #82 on: September 06, 2014, 12:10:27 AM »
Buy high, sell low.

What could possibly go wrong?

celeb nudes get leaked.

Tedim

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #83 on: September 06, 2014, 07:48:13 AM »
??? Don't you mean the other way around??

In times of DEflation... that's when you sell stuff & acquire cash. Your cash goes alot further in deflationary times.
In times of INflation, you buy things before prices go up further

DE-flation = Exchange things for cash
IN-flation = Exchange cash for things

Nope I'm good the other way around.....

TheGrinch

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #84 on: September 06, 2014, 08:34:28 AM »
"The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"

nothing matters until the Fed stops printing money.. who knows when that will happen

2Thick

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #85 on: September 06, 2014, 10:23:14 AM »
"The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"

nothing matters until the Fed stops printing money.. who knows when that will happen

That's just it - markets are often irrational. I believe that markets are pretty efficient overall in a general sense, but certainly not entirely and always efficient by any stretch.

I buy good companies when they appear relatively cheap or are rapidly growing (or both) and appear to have good future prospects. If irrational market emotions and overreactions to things (that often may not even pertain to them) make them even cheaper after I've bought them, I'll usually buy more. Bottom-up investing has made me tons of money over 20 years, and has enabled me to hold onto most of it in bad times.

I do this in reverse with companies I'm bearish on, except that I rarely use an actual short stock position, and instead opt for puts in most cases.

Commodities and other alternative investments (real estate stocks, etc) and sometimes higher yielding bonds are also tools I implement.
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TheGrinch

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #86 on: September 06, 2014, 04:52:04 PM »
That's just it - markets are often irrational. I believe that markets are pretty efficient overall in a general sense, but certainly not entirely and always efficient by any stretch.

I buy good companies when they appear relatively cheap or are rapidly growing (or both) and appear to have good future prospects. If irrational market emotions and overreactions to things (that often may not even pertain to them) make them even cheaper after I've bought them, I'll usually buy more. Bottom-up investing has made me tons of money over 20 years, and has enabled me to hold onto most of it in bad times.

I do this in reverse with companies I'm bearish on, except that I rarely use an actual short stock position, and instead opt for puts in most cases.

Commodities and other alternative investments (real estate stocks, etc) and sometimes higher yielding bonds are also tools I implement.

god bless your ability with options... I have gotten absolutely killed buying options due to time decay. I was right 99% of the positions but my timing was waaaaay off. Position always moved in my favor as soon as the option expired or was close enough to it rendering it worthless.

In this market it seems like you could make a killing by writing puts all day long

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #87 on: September 07, 2014, 10:32:49 AM »
I was really into "everything is going to collapse" about 8 years ago.

Now I just feel it'll be a gradual decline over decades, like the frog in the boiling water enjoying the warming bath.

2Thick

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #88 on: September 08, 2014, 10:03:48 AM »
god bless your ability with options... I have gotten absolutely killed buying options due to time decay. I was right 99% of the positions but my timing was waaaaay off. Position always moved in my favor as soon as the option expired or was close enough to it rendering it worthless.

In this market it seems like you could make a killing by writing puts all day long

I've found that volatility is a friend when buying options and an enemy when writing (selling) them. And I don't write uncovered options. I try to go out as longterm as I can and still get a decent price when buying them, and I simply look at other investments or do nothing if I cannot get a decent price on an option for a decent timeframe for a particular security.

My personal opinion (that some may certainly disagree with) as a longtime investor and experienced advisor is that options and other advanced techniques such as frequent trading will be more likely to be successful if one has lots of money to offset transaction costs, taxes, and losses. Having $1k or more worth of net realized losses / STCG taxes / expired options in a month is devastating financially if you have $10k. It's not so bad if you have millions - although it can certainly still become a problem if such losses become frequent and larger and gains slow down or stop for any length of time.
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TheGrinch

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #89 on: September 08, 2014, 11:26:20 AM »
I've found that volatility is a friend when buying options and an enemy when writing (selling) them. And I don't write uncovered options. I try to go out as longterm as I can and still get a decent price when buying them, and I simply look at other investments or do nothing if I cannot get a decent price on an option for a decent timeframe for a particular security.

My personal opinion (that some may certainly disagree with) as a longtime investor and experienced advisor is that options and other advanced techniques such as frequent trading will be more likely to be successful if one has lots of money to offset transaction costs, taxes, and losses. Having $1k or more worth of net realized losses / STCG taxes / expired options in a month is devastating financially if you have $10k. It's not so bad if you have millions - although it can certainly still become a problem if such losses become frequent and larger and gains slow down or stop for any length of time.

I agree with everything you said... and just my .02 but thats why the rich get richer while the poor get assraped trying to invest... just dont have the capital to weather large drawdowns.

24KT

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2014, 05:15:13 PM »
.
w

24KT

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2014, 05:17:41 PM »
It will be interesting to see how Scotland affects it all.  :D

...but I'm sure the powers that be will have another huge spectacle to distract everyone again.
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TheGrinch

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2014, 07:22:48 PM »
nothing to see here... move along..   :o :o :o




https://alexhoug.com/brace-fall-united-states-empire

tonymctones

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #93 on: September 13, 2014, 07:54:26 PM »
nothing to see here... move along..   :o :o :o




https://alexhoug.com/brace-fall-united-states-empire
whats the ratio of avg. company earnings to worker pay over the same time period?

2Thick

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2014, 01:26:33 PM »
If CEO pay is mostly or entirely based upon stock performance and profitability, they should be making very good money when the company is doing well. I have no problem with Harold Hamm making billions in a year when he owns 2/3 of CLR's stock and the stock and profits are through the roof.

http://performance.morningstar.com/stock/performance-return.action?t=CLR&region=usa&culture=en-US

No capitalist, business person, or investor should have a problem with this.

If the CEO owns little or no stock and is paid 8 figures a year in cash regardless of how good or bad the company does, then that's a shitty CEO working for what is most likely a shitty board and shitty company. I wouldn't want to invest in such a company, and would hope that workers for such a company generally only used such a company as a stepping stone to better career opportunities.
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tonymctones

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2014, 02:21:41 PM »
If CEO pay is mostly or entirely based upon stock performance and profitability, they should be making very good money when the company is doing well. I have no problem with Harold Hamm making billions in a year when he owns 2/3 of CLR's stock and the stock and profits are through the roof.

http://performance.morningstar.com/stock/performance-return.action?t=CLR&region=usa&culture=en-US

No capitalist, business person, or investor should have a problem with this.

If the CEO owns little or no stock and is paid 8 figures a year in cash regardless of how good or bad the company does, then that's a shitty CEO working for what is most likely a shitty board and shitty company. I wouldn't want to invest in such a company, and would hope that workers for such a company generally only used such a company as a stepping stone to better career opportunities.
exactly why im curious as to the avg company earnings during the same period.

the average person however doesnt understand that and only sees what the graphic posted earlier shows.

FitnessFrenzy

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2014, 02:20:12 AM »
If CEO pay is mostly or entirely based upon stock performance and profitability, they should be making very good money when the company is doing well. I have no problem with Harold Hamm making billions in a year when he owns 2/3 of CLR's stock and the stock and profits are through the roof.

http://performance.morningstar.com/stock/performance-return.action?t=CLR&region=usa&culture=en-US

No capitalist, business person, or investor should have a problem with this.

If the CEO owns little or no stock and is paid 8 figures a year in cash regardless of how good or bad the company does, then that's a shitty CEO working for what is most likely a shitty board and shitty company. I wouldn't want to invest in such a company, and would hope that workers for such a company generally only used such a company as a stepping stone to better career opportunities.

correct me if I am wrong, but as I remember the stock market crashes in 2002 and 2008 both happened in periods where the gap between worker and CEO wages was huge.

2Thick

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2014, 01:37:59 PM »
correct me if I am wrong, but as I remember the stock market crashes in 2002 and 2008 both happened in periods where the gap between worker and CEO wages was huge.

I don't know offhand if that's absolutely correct or not. It may depend upon which companies and how many you're looking at. If it's 8000 public companies, or the Russell 2000, or the S&P 500, or the Dow 30, the answer may differ.

Also, if you're talking about a one year period here and there when the markets top off, it would seem likely that a CEO with lots of company stock would be making big bucks when the company stock hit a top.

And there's also the matter of how their company stock did and if they were likely buying more of it throughout the year via dollar cost averaging - if the company stock was only down 10% when the S&P was down 40%, if they were buying more shares each month as the stock declined in price, etc.


Also, you may get different stats from different writers at different websites. Is the writer including stock performance in both good AND bad years? Are they adding tens or hundreds of millions or more to the CEO compensation figure in years the stock goes up, and failing to subtract whatever paper losses the CEO would likely have to his annual comp in a year when the stock gets hit hard?

They are also typically getting cash bonuses for actual profitability  - which can occur even in years when the stock market crashes and just about all stocks suffer at least some loss. Foolhardy IMO to just pick one year here and there and make blanket assumptions about most or all companies and their managements across the board without detailed info on each company and on how the data is gathered.

But I definitely believe that pay should be tied almost entirely or entirely to stock performance and profitability. If the stock is falling and profits are decreasing or nonexistent, the CEO should make little or nothing.

Most compensation should be in stock. I would not want to invest in a company with little or no management ownership in stock, and little or no comp paid out in stock.

It is the board’s responsibility to make sure CEO pay is not excessive, is based upon performance and incentives, and that they act in the shareholders’ best interests. This also means that the CEO and Chairman roles should always be held by different individuals, unless the CEO is the majority shareholder.

If the board fails in it’s responsibilities to the shareholders, it is up to the shareholders to affect change. This is where shareholder activism comes into play – boards are routinely partially or fully replaced, CEOs fired, etc. I just bought a few thousand bucks worth of Hertz after this very thing happened in the past week or two.

But it is NOT the place of big govt to meddle in this. As long as no fraud is going on, and everyone is paid at least the minimum wage as required by law, the free markets and our own free choices should dictate which companies we work for or invest in. And we’re all free to start our own companies and pay / overpay ourselves as we see fit as well.
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TheGrinch

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2014, 02:07:16 PM »
Dont ever be' sellin' when Janet be' Yellen!!!








Seems like there is ZERO risk in buying anything right now

FitnessFrenzy

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Re: Huge stock market correction coming
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2014, 11:56:37 AM »
Christine Madeleine Odette Lagarde, Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund, has warned that the stock market is overpriced and volatile.
Just look at the MSCI world from the last 6 months. The development is not totally stable: