High dose test + fat loss: 'Testosterone dose-response relationships' study

[latiuss]

YOU are an internet broscientist. because you do not use your BRAIN and just reiterate what some retards write.

UGH I TOOK LETRO AND GOT NO LIBIDO SO IT MUST REDUCE MY ESTROGEN BY 99,9999 PERCENT

what a bunch of SHIT

That 98% he is quoting is from an actual study on men btw . Ive watched a documentry on the history of a.i's and the three most important men in that field would all disagree with you. A.i's work very well in males.

[EurasianAesthetics]

Stop fighting, get off the roids! lol

[Jizmo]

That 98% he is quoting is from an actual study on men btw . Ive watched a documentry on the history of a.i's and the three most important men in that field would all disagree with you. A.i's work very well in males.

wrong. show me ONE study that shows 98% estorgen suppression in healthy males with letrozole. they can use 10mg letrozole if you want.
98% estrogen suppression is IMPOSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE IN HEALTHY MALES.


"Although aromatase inhibition by anastrozole and letrozole is reported to be close to 100%, administration of these inhibitors to men will not suppress plasma estradiol levels completely. In men third-generation aromatase inhibitors will decrease the mean plasma estradiol/testosterone ratio by 77%"
from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143915/
"When testicular testosterone and estradiol synthesis are suppressed and testosterone is administered exogenously in combination with letrozole, however, the estradiol/testosterone ratio is suppressed by 81% [30], which is only marginally different from the suppression of this ratio in intact men after treatment with letrozole."




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18829517 90-97% suppression in females
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11821457 80-93% suppression with 1mg adex, 84-98% with letro IN FEMALES
http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/4/9/2089.abstract 93-94% suppression with 25mg aromasin IN FEMALES
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/13470629_In_vivo_measurement_of_aromatase_inhibition_by_letrozole_%28CGS_20267%29_in_postmenopausal_patients_with_breast_cancer
98% IN FEMALES

btw, no difference in 0.5mg letro and 2.5mg letro there.
you can blast 100mg of letro and STILL wont get your estrogen into single digits on a gram of test. NOT A CHANCE.

and you can see that all AIs have nearly the same strength in women. all above 90%. in men they are ALL equally WEAK. around 50-60% suppression maybe. same for 1mg adex, 2.5mg letro and 25mg aromasin a day.


http://www.eje-online.org/content/158/5/741.full
about 50% estrogen reduction with 2.5mg letro a week in MALES. YES ONLY 50%
note that just 3.5mg letro a week (thats only 1mg more) in FEMALES suppresses estrogen by OVER 98% (see last link i posted)

"most of the recent studies with aromatase inhibitors in boys and adult men do not show major detrimental effects on bone"
this is pretty much PROOF that estrogen cant be reduced by 98% in men, because women have HUGE bone density issues after letrozole treatment because low estrogen = low bone density. NO SUCH PROBLEM IN MALES.


the loss of libido with letro has other reasons. theres a high probability that letro has a profound effect in BRAIN aromatase. thats why most people lose libido on it.
it strongly reduces aromatase in BRAIN TISSUE. it does NOT achieve strong suppression ANYWHERE else in MEN.


my point stands. i wont dig out another 300 studies. AIs ARE WEAK IN MEN. ITS A FACT. case closed.

[latiuss]

wrong. show me ONE study that shows 98% estorgen suppression in healthy males with letrozole. they can use 10mg letrozole if you want.
98% estrogen suppression is IMPOSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE IN HEALTHY MALES.


"Although aromatase inhibition by anastrozole and letrozole is reported to be close to 100%, administration of these inhibitors to men will not suppress plasma estradiol levels completely. In men third-generation aromatase inhibitors will decrease the mean plasma estradiol/testosterone ratio by 77%"
from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143915/
"When testicular testosterone and estradiol synthesis are suppressed and testosterone is administered exogenously in combination with letrozole, however, the estradiol/testosterone ratio is suppressed by 81% [30], which is only marginally different from the suppression of this ratio in intact men after treatment with letrozole."




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18829517 90-97% suppression in females
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11821457 80-93% suppression with 1mg adex, 84-98% with letro IN FEMALES
http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/4/9/2089.abstract 93-94% suppression with 25mg aromasin IN FEMALES
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/13470629_In_vivo_measurement_of_aromatase_inhibition_by_letrozole_%28CGS_20267%29_in_postmenopausal_patients_with_breast_cancer
98% IN FEMALES

btw, no difference in 0.5mg letro and 2.5mg letro there.
you can blast 100mg of letro and STILL wont get your estrogen into single digits on a gram of test. NOT A CHANCE.

and you can see that all AIs have nearly the same strength in women. all above 90%. in men they are ALL equally WEAK. around 50-60% suppression maybe. same for 1mg adex, 2.5mg letro and 25mg aromasin a day.


http://www.eje-online.org/content/158/5/741.full
about 50% estrogen reduction with 2.5mg letro a week in MALES. YES ONLY 50%
note that just 3.5mg letro a week (thats only 1mg more) in FEMALES suppresses estrogen by OVER 98% (see last link i posted)

"most of the recent studies with aromatase inhibitors in boys and adult men do not show major detrimental effects on bone"
this is pretty much PROOF that estrogen cant be reduced by 98% in men, because women have HUGE bone density issues after letrozole treatment because low estrogen = low bone density. NO SUCH PROBLEM IN MALES.


the loss of libido with letro has other reasons. theres a high probability that letro has a profound effect in BRAIN aromatase. thats why most people lose libido on it.
it strongly reduces aromatase in BRAIN TISSUE. it does NOT achieve strong suppression ANYWHERE else in MEN.


my point stands. i wont dig out another 300 studies. AIs ARE WEAK IN MEN. ITS A FACT. case closed.

Honestly i cant be bothered searching for stuff anymore reading random medical studies on peds n ais etc but fairplay for posting some stuff. All the studies had low test males. With low test there is not much aromatization which is what these drugs specially letro stop. When theres grams higher levels of test then one sees how good the drugs deal with aromatization.

[Qwert II]

YOU are an internet broscientist. because you do not use your BRAIN and just reiterate what some retards write.

UGH I TOOK LETRO AND GOT NO LIBIDO SO IT MUST REDUCE MY ESTROGEN BY 99,9999 PERCENT

what a bunch of SHIT

Still can't back up your claims? That's nice BRO. Keep up with those scientifically backed studies BRO, ok? Thanks a bunch!!!!!

[Jizmo]

Honestly i cant be bothered searching for stuff anymore reading random medical studies on peds n ais etc but fairplay for posting some stuff. All the studies had low test males. With low test there is not much aromatization which is what these drugs specially letro stop. When theres grams higher levels of test then one sees how good the drugs deal with aromatization.

well, we are talking about percentages here. so that shouldnt change a thing.

low test males do not necessarily have low estrogen too. they might aromatize strongly and therefore have low test but high estrogen.

Still can't back up your claims? That's nice BRO. Keep up with those scientifically backed studies BRO, ok? Thanks a bunch!!!!!

are you retarded? did you even read my post you broscience spewing dumbass? get the fuck out of this thread.

[Qwert II]

well, we are talking about percentages here. so that shouldnt change a thing.

low test males do not necessarily have low estrogen too. they might aromatize strongly and therefore have low test but high estrogen.
are you retarded? did you even read my post you broscience spewing dumbass? get the fuck out of this thread.

DUDE, you're making claims based on supposed scientific peer reviewed medical studies that you won't reveal. THAT is bro science.

[Jizmo]

DUDE, you're making claims based on supposed scientific peer reviewed medical studies that you won't reveal. THAT is bro science.

lol.
i posted numerous studies proving my point

while you fail to post THAT SINGLE STUDY - ONE SINGLE STUDY - that you claim proves your point.
hahahaha

fact is - there IS NO SUCH STUDY.

you fail miserably. deal with it 

[Qwert II]

lol.
i posted numerous studies proving my point

while you fail to post THAT SINGLE STUDY - ONE SINGLE STUDY - that you claim proves your point.
hahahaha

fact is - there IS NO SUCH STUDY.

you fail miserably. deal with it 

DUDE, how stupid are you? These peer reviewed medical studies were done on bodybuilders taking supra-physiological amounts of gear & done with every AI there is? You do know there are medical studies that also proved that steroids don't enhance performance & muscle mass. don't you?

AI's work very well in men. Take 1 tab aromasin a day on 1g test & then have your estrogen levels checked before & after. I did & unless the tests were wrong, my estrogen WAS reduced to the point of being unhealthy.

Let me guess, you still think taking time off gear to let your receptors clean out is a true & winstrol is a cutting drug & test is a bulking drug.

[Jizmo]

DUDE, how stupid are you? These peer reviewed medical studies were done on bodybuilders taking supra-physiological amounts of gear & done with every AI there is? You do know there are medical studies that also proved that steroids don't enhance performance & muscle mass. don't you?

AI's work very well in men. Take 1 tab aromasin a day on 1g test & then have your estrogen levels checked before & after. I did & unless the tests were wrong, my estrogen WAS reduced to the point of being unhealthy.

Let me guess, you still think taking time off gear to let your receptors clean out is a true & winstrol is a cutting drug & test is a bulking drug.

xDDD show me that study

pls

do it

ur so pathetic 

[Qwert II]

xDDD show me that study

pls

do it

ur so pathetic 

Oh my God you are stupid. We're talking about BODYBUILDING applications of AI & you're quoting papers done on women & claiming AI's don't work on men. Do you not understand this? They also found in medical studies that Boron increases testosterone.....in post menopausal women. Does this have an application to BB males?

have you even ever taken an AI while on high dose test? You couldn't have if you still believe that they DO NOT WORK well in men.

[heenok]

Dave Palumbo said that no matter how much AI/anti estrogen you take gyno is bound to happen in anyone using gear at high enough dosage.
Removal of the glands is the only solution. Almost all pros had gyno surgery, and some of them had it several times.

[Qwert II]

Dave Palumbo said that no matter how much AI/anti estrogen you take gyno is bound to happen in anyone using gear at high enough dosage.
Removal of the glands is the only solution. Almost all pros had gyno surgery, and some of them had it several times.

Dave also told me in person in 1995 that he took 1000mg test & 300mg EQ & had never taken any more & didn't know any pros who had.

[whitewidow]

Dave also told me in person in 1995 that he took 1000mg test & 300mg EQ & had never taken any more & didn't know any pros who had.

I call bullshit on that. lets be realistic Testosterone is very important but it is true you don't want to use too much Test otherwise you will most likely get some unwanted water retention. I would never go over 1 gram a week even that is high. I mean I understand guys run 5 grams of gear a week but they are using everything not just Test. once you add in your deca or EQ, your Tren,maybe masteron and Your orals it's easy to get into the 3 gram to 5 gram range of gear. As far as AI's go they are great to have on hand and do work but they are not magic pills.

[Jizmo]

Oh my God you are stupid. We're talking about BODYBUILDING applications of AI & you're quoting papers done on women & claiming AI's don't work on men. Do you not understand this? They also found in medical studies that Boron increases testosterone.....in post menopausal women. Does this have an application to BB males?

have you even ever taken an AI while on high dose test? You couldn't have if you still believe that they DO NOT WORK well in men.

dude you are so pathetic.
 you are talking about ONE SINGLE study yet cant even show it to me.

because it doesnt exist and youre talking SHIT.

Dave Palumbo said that no matter how much AI/anti estrogen you take gyno is bound to happen in anyone using gear at high enough dosage.
Removal of the glands is the only solution. Almost all pros had gyno surgery, and some of them had it several times.

this is true

no other reason why SO MANY pros have gyno... but qwert will probably say its because they didnt take their AI because estrogen helps gains lol

I call bullshit on that.

thats his point 

[whitewidow]

dude you are so pathetic.
 you are talking about ONE SINGLE study yet cant even show it to me.

because it doesnt exist and youre talking SHIT.

this is true

no other reason why SO MANY pros have gyno... but qwert will probably say its because they didnt take their AI because estrogen helps gains lol

thats his point 

Yes this is true even boston Lloyd at 21 had to get his glands removed so he would stop getting puffy nips and lactating so no AI's do only so much. I have heard these guys on boards claim they killed gyno using letro for a long duration and i call bullshit on that! Big time!

[heenok]

Yes this is true even boston Lloyd at 21 had to get his glands removed so he would stop getting puffy nips and lactating so no AI's do only so much. I have heard these guys on boards claim they killed gyno using letro for a long duration and i call bullshit on that! Big time!

Im am cutting atm on test/mast + arimidex and i swear my gyno is much less obvious.
Seems the leaner i get the less obvious the nipple puffyness gets.

Its definitly possible to reduce the gland with drugs. When you deprive the gland from estrogenic hormone it shrinks.
But then again surgery is by far the best option. If you are lucky the surgeon will be able to remove the whole gland whithout leaving a crater. For most people they have to keep a little gland to keep the chest normal looking, but the gyno can come back.

[Jizmo]

Im am cutting atm on test/mast + arimidex and i swear my gyno is much less obvious.
Seems the leaner i get the less obvious the nipple puffyness gets.

Its definitly possible to reduce the gland with drugs. When you deprive the gland from estrogenic hormone it shrinks.
But then again surgery is by far the best option. If you are lucky the surgeon will be able to remove the whole gland whithout leaving a crater. For most people they have to keep a little gland to keep the chest normal looking, but the gyno can come back.

true, once you get below a true 10% bf you wont see puffy nips or what MOST PEOPLE VIEW AS GYNO. only when you really have full blown tits, REAL gyno and its way too late your chest looks shit at below 10% bf.

btw, i think you DEFINITELY can avoid getting gyno even with 10 grams of test and tren. but NOT with AIs.

you have to reduce estrogen with an AI for health purposes, see prostate enlargement, moodyness etc
BUT
imo you can avoid breast growth with the use of SERMS.

i think raloxifene is the most superior for that purpose because it has A LOT of benefits outside of estrogen receptor blocking, such as positive effects on cholesterole, bone density etc. and does not share the negatives of nolvadex (IGF lowering effects etc).
toremifene seems to be good too.

so i'd recommend ANYONE who ventures the 3+ gram range to run raloxifene concurrently with their blast. a lowish dosage such as 30mg (some need mroe) should do the trick here.

[Qwert II]

dude you are so pathetic.
 you are talking about ONE SINGLE study yet cant even show it to me.

because it doesnt exist and youre talking SHIT.

this is true

no other reason why SO MANY pros have gyno... but qwert will probably say its because they didnt take their AI because estrogen helps gains lol

thats his point 

DUDE, what study are you talking about? I'm not quoting any studies. I'm quoting from real life experience with myself a dozens more.

YOUR studies were done on WOMEN. This is not the case group that is remotely similar to men taking grams of gear.

To say AI do not work well in a cycle is ridiculous. The only reason someone would believe this & keep quoting studies done on women as their proof is because he has no personal experience with AIs. lain & simple.

[Jizmo]

DUDE, what study are you talking about? I'm not quoting any studies. I'm quoting from real life experience with myself a dozens more.

YOUR studies were done on WOMEN. This is not the case group that is remotely similar to men taking grams of gear.

To say AI do not work well in a cycle is ridiculous. The only reason someone would believe this & keep quoting studies done on women as their proof is because he has no personal experience with AIs. lain & simple.

you said 20 times that letro suppresses estrogen in "bodybuilders" by 98%, which is just plain wrong.

i asked you to post a source for that claim and you couldnt

your only source is your bro "real life experience"

just because letro lowered your libido you claim it destroys estrogen, lol

you have zero credibility mister "real life experience"

bro science at its best


and guess WHY I FUCKING POST STUDIES ON WOMEN

BECAUSE THE CLINICAL USE OF LETROZOLE IS AS A DRUG AGAINST BREAST CANCER

YOU THINK THEY DO STUDIES ON MEN FOR THAT PURPOSE?

fucking retard. seriously

oh and by the way, to say i have no experience with AIs is utter bullshit lol

in fact im one of the few people who use letro as an on cycle AI.
it works GREAT for that.
1.25mg letro every 3 days works perfectly as AI for 1g of test
and guess why
because it DOES NOT lower estrogen by 98%.

around 3mg letro a week (1.25mg e3d) equals about 3.5mg adex a week (0.5mg a day) or about 80mg aromasin a week (12.5mg a day) by strength

letro and adex are about equally strong mg by mg and both work PERFECTLY FINE AS ON CYCLE AI

[Damios]

If AIs are weak in males, do You recommend use them even with low dose test like i.e 200-300mg UG?

[Jizmo]

If AIs are weak in males, do You recommend use them even with low dose test like i.e 200-300mg UG?

if youre lean 300mg test shouldnt even get your estrogen above reference range (unless youre prone) so i wouldnt use an AI with that.

300mg is about the threshold that i'd put, above i'd use low dose adex or aromasin
aromatization is a pretty individual thing though so only way to tell forsure is to get bloodwork

when i cruise on 300mg i dont use an AI, but i use raloxifene all the time anyway so no gyno problems

[Qwert II]

you said 20 times that letro suppresses estrogen in "bodybuilders" by 98%, which is just plain wrong.

i asked you to post a source for that claim and you couldnt

your only source is your bro "real life experience"

just because letro lowered your libido you claim it destroys estrogen, lol

you have zero credibility mister "real life experience"

bro science at its best


and guess WHY I FUCKING POST STUDIES ON WOMEN

BECAUSE THE CLINICAL USE OF LETROZOLE IS AS A DRUG AGAINST BREAST CANCER

YOU THINK THEY DO STUDIES ON MEN FOR THAT PURPOSE?

fucking retard. seriously

oh and by the way, to say i have no experience with AIs is utter bullshit lol

in fact im one of the few people who use letro as an on cycle AI.
it works GREAT for that.
1.25mg letro every 3 days works perfectly as AI for 1g of test
and guess why
because it DOES NOT lower estrogen by 98%.

around 3mg letro a week (1.25mg e3d) equals about 3.5mg adex a week (0.5mg a day) or about 80mg aromasin a week (12.5mg a day) by strength

letro and adex are about equally strong mg by mg and both work PERFECTLY FINE AS ON CYCLE AI

Now you're pulling facts out of your ass. Where did I EVER say AI's reduced estrogen by 98% or ANY %, for that matter. I said it is a HIGHLY effective in men on a cycle, where as you claim it is NOT & then posted studies on WOMEN.

[nattybay]

If you go to this study here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11701431, it basically shows that higher doses of test have a positive effect on reducing bodyfat levels. The highest they use in this study is 600mg per week.

What I want to ask is have any of you experienced this to a greater degree injecting mega doses of test? Like if you started doing 3g+ test a week, are you going to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time?

I've read often, including from gh15 that this is possible with tren. But Tren is just stronger than test, so surely you can just do larger doses of test to get the same effect?

First thing first.....it dont take too many steroid combos to gain a fucking ton of muscle. and lose fat
Secondly the more test you use, the bigger you be. (bigger not mean lean ripped hard)



Go ahead and do 1 ampoule of Sustanon a day with 250mg drostanolone prop for 4 weeks. You will be thanking me later.

drostanolone prop is the best thing out there to fight gyno.

And if you you not been someone with years of AAS use....you are wasting gear injecting test at 3g+


The studies you refer to on these sites are real good but you need to smart enough to understand how much it actually relates to a dude trying to gain muscle. Be smart.

[Jizmo]

Now you're pulling facts out of your ass. Where did I EVER say AI's reduced estrogen by 98% or ANY %, for that matter. I said it is a HIGHLY effective in men on a cycle, where as you claim it is NOT & then posted studies on WOMEN.

ok brofessor.
if "highly effective" means 70% reduction then i agree with u lol 

my point is - you cant tank estrogen into the low zone - which means single digits - on 1g of test, no matter how much AI you use (unless ur a genetic anomaly)
since most people will have estrogen EASILY >100 on 1g of test that'd make AT LEAST a 90% reduction.

which just doesnt happen