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Cholo4Life

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« on: October 21, 2014, 02:06:19 PM »
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Dos Equis

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That entire article is based on a false premise: 

"Political analysts keep urging the Republican Party to do more to appeal to Hispanic voters.  Yet the party’s congressional leaders show little sign of doing so, blocking an immigration overhaul and harshly criticizing President Obama for his plan to defer deportation for undocumented migrants."

Amnesty does not appeal to Hispanic voters, and they want illegals deported too:

BORDER CRISIS POLL: 64% OF HISPANICS BACK DEPORTATIONS
by JOHN NOLTE  28 Jul 2014

If you are curious as to why the mainstream media so quickly lost interest in the still-ongoing story of our Southern border crisis, it has everything to do with public opinion and little to do with competing stories in the Ukraine and Gaza.

When this story first broke at Breitbart Texas, the media jumped all over it. At first, it was obvious the media planned to exploit the story of 50-plus thousand unaccompanied Central American children illegally crossing our border as a way to pressure the GOP into caving on amnesty. A new poll from Economist/YouGov shows how badly that plan backfired -- even among Hispanics.

Rather than convince the American people that passing a mass amnesty is what's needed, the burst of border coverage earlier this month convinced 77% of the American people that the kids need to be sent back home. A full 42% want the kids sent back immediately regardless of what's happening in their home countries. Add to that another 35% who want them sent back  unless their home country is deemed unsafe.

Only 11% want what Obama, Democrats, and the media want -- which is amnesty for everyone.

The numbers are not all that different among Hispanics. Only 22% want to give the children amnesty. A full 64% want the children deported. Of that 64%, 28% want them deported immediately; 36% want them deported unless their home country is deemed unsafe.

That puts Hispanics almost perfectly in line with the rest of country.

The poll also shows that the media's collective decision to, at least for now, ignore the crisis, is out of step with the American people; 81% of whom see it as a serious problem.

The biggest tell that the media's propaganda campaign backfired is that a full 57% of those polled believe that the jump in illegals is due to the belief the American government will grant children amnesty. Only 29% believe it has anything to do with increased violence in Central America. 

The poll also shows that only 40% of Hispanics believe violence is what prompted the flood of illegal children. A full 51% believe it was the promise of amnesty.
What Democrats and the media fail to understand is that what's making the American people uneasy is a sense of chaos. The fact that Obama has already entered his post-presidency phase of golf, celebrity dinner parties, cash-grabs, and lavish vacations, only contributes to that sense of unease.

Rather than lead and wrap his arms around the problem, our petulant president seems eager to let the chaos continue as a punishment for a country that let him down and didn't let him have his way on everything.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/07/28/poll-66-percent-hispanics-back-deportation


RRKore

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That entire article is based on a false premise: 

"Political analysts keep urging the Republican Party to do more to appeal to Hispanic voters.  Yet the party’s congressional leaders show little sign of doing so, blocking an immigration overhaul and harshly criticizing President Obama for his plan to defer deportation for undocumented migrants."

Amnesty does not appeal to Hispanic voters, and they want illegals deported too:

BORDER CRISIS POLL: 64% OF HISPANICS BACK DEPORTATIONS
by JOHN NOLTE  28 Jul 2014

If you are curious as to why the mainstream media so quickly lost interest in the still-ongoing story of our Southern border crisis, it has everything to do with public opinion and little to do with competing stories in the Ukraine and Gaza.

When this story first broke at Breitbart Texas, the media jumped all over it. At first, it was obvious the media planned to exploit the story of 50-plus thousand unaccompanied Central American children illegally crossing our border as a way to pressure the GOP into caving on amnesty. A new poll from Economist/YouGov shows how badly that plan backfired -- even among Hispanics.

Rather than convince the American people that passing a mass amnesty is what's needed, the burst of border coverage earlier this month convinced 77% of the American people that the kids need to be sent back home. A full 42% want the kids sent back immediately regardless of what's happening in their home countries. Add to that another 35% who want them sent back  unless their home country is deemed unsafe.

Only 11% want what Obama, Democrats, and the media want -- which is amnesty for everyone.

The numbers are not all that different among Hispanics. Only 22% want to give the children amnesty. A full 64% want the children deported. Of that 64%, 28% want them deported immediately; 36% want them deported unless their home country is deemed unsafe.

That puts Hispanics almost perfectly in line with the rest of country.

The poll also shows that the media's collective decision to, at least for now, ignore the crisis, is out of step with the American people; 81% of whom see it as a serious problem.

The biggest tell that the media's propaganda campaign backfired is that a full 57% of those polled believe that the jump in illegals is due to the belief the American government will grant children amnesty. Only 29% believe it has anything to do with increased violence in Central America. 

The poll also shows that only 40% of Hispanics believe violence is what prompted the flood of illegal children. A full 51% believe it was the promise of amnesty.
What Democrats and the media fail to understand is that what's making the American people uneasy is a sense of chaos. The fact that Obama has already entered his post-presidency phase of golf, celebrity dinner parties, cash-grabs, and lavish vacations, only contributes to that sense of unease.

Rather than lead and wrap his arms around the problem, our petulant president seems eager to let the chaos continue as a punishment for a country that let him down and didn't let him have his way on everything.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/07/28/poll-66-percent-hispanics-back-deportation


Sorry, what's the false premise?

Dos Equis

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Sorry, what's the false premise?

I quoted it:  "Political analysts keep urging the Republican Party to do more to appeal to Hispanic voters.  Yet the party’s congressional leaders show little sign of doing so, blocking an immigration overhaul and harshly criticizing President Obama for his plan to defer deportation for undocumented migrants."

Amnesty and fewer deportations do not appeal to Hispanic voters. 


Dos Equis

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agreed 100%.

RNC wants it:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/03/18/reince-priebus-gives-gop-prescription-for-future/

Repubs don't:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/03/18/as-gop-leaders-praise-priebus-report-some-conservatives-balk/

Are you embellishing again?  The story you linked doesn't say Republicans don't want it.  It quotes a few dissenting voices, but also says this:

Former House speaker Newt Gingrich said the Growth and Opportunity Project report and Priebus's remarks were right to focus on the GOP's success at the state level, where the party holds 30 governorships.

Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), while not yet weighing in on the specifics, also praised his fellow Wisconsinite.

Proud of @reince and his @gop team for their leadership. Eager to read the full Growth & #Opportunity report: growthopp.gop.com — Paul Ryan (@PRyan) March 18, 2013



The truth is your friend.

240 is Back

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you're posting the opinion of SOME.    Yes, SOME repubs want amnesty.  SOME do not.  

Newt and Ryan both seem to support it - bit shocker that two corporate party TOOLS like them would want amnesty.

On teh other hand, Carson and Cruz are NOT party tools, and they are very much against amnesty.

Your entire argument is that Ryan/Newt aren't party tools?  Um...

Dos Equis

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you're posting the opinion of SOME.    Yes, SOME repubs want amnesty.  SOME do not.  

Quote
agreed 100%.

RNC wants it:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/03/18/reince-priebus-gives-gop-prescription-for-future/

Repubs don't:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/03/18/as-gop-leaders-praise-priebus-report-some-conservatives-balk/

Thank you for clarifying, which you wouldn't have done if I didn't point how you misrepresented the facts again.

RRKore

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I quoted it:  "Political analysts keep urging the Republican Party to do more to appeal to Hispanic voters.  Yet the party’s congressional leaders show little sign of doing so, blocking an immigration overhaul and harshly criticizing President Obama for his plan to defer deportation for undocumented migrants."

Amnesty and fewer deportations do not appeal to Hispanic voters. 

I believe it's fairly likely that a majority of legal Hispanics are not in favor of deferred deportations for illegals.

I do not believe that the majority of legal Hispanics are not in favor of an "immigration overhaul".  (WTF?  ANYONE who's dealt with INS knows they suck.)

Also, I do believe that equating an "immigration overhaul" to "amnesty" is a misrepresentation.

Dos Equis

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I believe it's fairly likely that a majority of legal Hispanics are not in favor of deferred deportations for illegals.

I do not believe that the majority of legal Hispanics are not in favor of an "immigration overhaul".  (WTF?  ANYONE who's dealt with INS knows they suck.)

Also, I do believe that equating an "immigration overhaul" to "amnesty" is a misrepresentation.

No it isn't, if you're actually paying attention.  "Immigration overhaul" as proposed by the president and others includes a "pathway to citizenship," which = amnesty.     

RRKore

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No it isn't, if you're actually paying attention.  "Immigration overhaul" as proposed by the president and others includes a "pathway to citizenship," which = amnesty.     

Link, please.  "And others"?  Which others?  I don't think there's consensus about what an "immigration overhaul" would entail but would be happy to read that I'm wrong about that.

Dos Equis

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Link, please.  "And others"?  Which others?  I don't think there's consensus about what an "immigration overhaul" would entail but would be happy to read that I'm wrong about that.

Google it.  Democrats and Republicans are proposing a pathway to citizenship. 

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Google it.  Democrats and Republicans are proposing a pathway to citizenship.  

Democrats and RINOs are proposting a bath to citizenship.

True conservatives like Ted Cruz are doing no such thing.  

And the actual republicans themselves?  Well... Ask Eric Cantor what actual repubs (not RINOs obeying reince priebus in DC) think of the amnesty issue.

Opposition to amnesty was even stronger among the GOP’s base. Sixty percent of Republicans and 63 percent of conservatives would be less likely to vote for a candidate who endorsed amnesty

http://www.washingtonpost.com/page/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/03/04/National-Politics/Polling/question_13260.xml?uuid=z25v3qNZEeO4ZTiyVNkgYw

Dos Equis

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Democrats and RINOs are proposting a bath to citizenship.

True conservatives like Ted Cruz are doing no such thing.  

And the actual republicans themselves?  Well... Ask Eric Cantor what actual repubs (not RINOs obeying reince priebus in DC) think of the amnesty issue.

Opposition to amnesty was even stronger among the GOP’s base. Sixty percent of Republicans and 63 percent of conservatives would be less likely to vote for a candidate who endorsed amnesty

http://www.washingtonpost.com/page/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/03/04/National-Politics/Polling/question_13260.xml?uuid=z25v3qNZEeO4ZTiyVNkgYw

RRKore this is exactly what I'm talking about regarding dishonesty and reading links.  This dude made the statement that "Sixty percent of Republicans and 63 percent of conservatives would be less likely to vote for a candidate who endorsed amnesty."  He then cites a link that doesn't say any such thing.  It actually has one question: 

Q: Which political party, the (Democrats) or the (Republicans), do you trust to do a better job handling Immigration issues?
Published: April 17, 2014

Democrats
44%

Republicans

36%

(VOL) Both equally

1%

(VOL) Neither

13%

No opinion

7%


Now multiply this by about 100 and you should understand why I don't trust anything he says. 

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http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/05/amnesty-is-a-vote-killer-for-gop-says-washpo-poll/

Opposition to amnesty was even stronger among the GOP’s base. Sixty percent of Republicans and 63 percent of conservatives would be less likely to vote for a candidate who endorsed amnesty, the Washington Post’s poll reported.

Only 14 percent of Republicans and 10 percent of conservatives said they would be more likely to endorse a pro-amnesty candidate.

In comparison, 20 percent of Democrats and liberals, 24 percent of moderate or conservative Democrats, 12 percent of liberal Democrats, and 27 percent of post-grads, said they would be less likely to endorse an amnesty supporter.

JOHN MATRIX

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I live in a hispanic majority city and most of them are just regular americans who feel the same way as the rest of the country about mass amnesty....its only the stupid media and the dems who are literally lumping all ethnically hispanic people into one monolithic voting block alongside illegals...as if they were all exactly the same

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I live in a hispanic majority city and most of them are just regular americans who feel the same way as the rest of the country about mass amnesty....its only the stupid media and the dems who are literally lumping all ethnically hispanic people into one monolithic voting block alongside illegals...as if they were all exactly the same

truth.  we've seen plenty of polls showing the majority of law abiding hispanics don't support letting illegals in.

I'm irish, hungarian... I sure as FCK don't want obama allowing 10 million irish or hungarian illegal immigrants to stay in USA lol.

RRKore

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Google it.  Democrats and Republicans are proposing a pathway to citizenship. 

You seem to not be understanding what I wrote. 

I don't doubt that folks of different political stripes are proposing amnesty but that's not what I was asking.

I'm saying that there are many who are in favor of "overhauling immigration" who are not in favor of amnesty.  You aren't saying this isn't true, are you?

The immigration system now sucks and almost anyone who's dealt with them will tell you the same -- I know this because I brought my wife to the USA on a K-1 visa without any legal help and so I've spent a lot of time on internet forums dedicated to dealing with the INS.

BTW, what's the deal with telling folks to use google to back up a claim YOU make?  Makes you look shady, imo.

RRKore

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I live in a hispanic majority city and most of them are just regular americans who feel the same way as the rest of the country about mass amnesty....its only the stupid media and the dems who are literally lumping all ethnically hispanic people into one monolithic voting block alongside illegals...as if they were all exactly the same

Same here:  I live in SoCal's Inland Empire.  (But I haven't been here long enough for the term "Inland Empire" to not sound funny, lol.)

Dos Equis

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You seem to not be understanding what I wrote. 

I don't doubt that folks of different political stripes are proposing amnesty but that's not what I was asking.

I'm saying that there are many who are in favor of "overhauling immigration" who are not in favor of amnesty.  You aren't saying this isn't true, are you?

The immigration system now sucks and almost anyone who's dealt with them will tell you the same -- I know this because I brought my wife to the USA on a K-1 visa without any legal help and so I've spent a lot of time on internet forums dedicated to dealing with the INS.

BTW, what's the deal with telling folks to use google to back up a claim YOU make?  Makes you look shady, imo.

I could care less how it makes me look when you ask me to back up a "claim" that is all over the friggin internet, and you are just too lazy to look it up for yourself.  Just so we're clear on that. 

What I said is the people proposing "overhauling immigration" in both parties are including a "pathway to citizenship."  Are there a handful of people who are not on the amnesty bandwagon?  Yes.  But anyone paying attention, or isn't too lazy to read up on who is proposing a "pathway to citizenship" can figure out pretty easily "overhauling immigration" includes amnesty on some level or another. 

RRKore

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I could care less how it makes me look when you ask me to back up a "claim" that is all over the friggin internet, and you are just too lazy to look it up for yourself.  Just so we're clear on that. 

What I said is the people proposing "overhauling immigration" in both parties are including a "pathway to citizenship."  Are there a handful of people who are not on the amnesty bandwagon?  Yes.  But anyone paying attention, or isn't too lazy to read up on who is proposing a "pathway to citizenship" can figure out pretty easily "overhauling immigration" includes amnesty on some level or another. 

To recap, I said that I do think the majority of Hispanics are not in favor of amnesty but are in favor of an immigration overhaul.

Then, please correct me about this if I'm wrong, you seemed to claim that "immigration overhaul" is some sort of code for "amnesty".  

If I'm right about my characterization of our discussion so far here, then please provide a link that indicates "immigration overhaul" definitely includes amnesty.  (If "immigration overhaul" is pretty much accepted as meaning "amnesty" then it shouldn't be hard for you to find a link saying so, I'm thinking.)

BTW, let me add that that I think it's funny how you make a claim that you're reluctant to back up with a link and I'm the lazy one?  WTF?  Is this some kind of "these-are-not-the-droids-you're-looking-for" kind of thing?  

You are no Jedi, BB.  This is plain weak, BB, weak.

Besides, even a Jedi can make a reading comprehension mistake.  (After all, we've seen explicit evidence of this recently, haven't we?  ;D)

Dos Equis

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To recap, I said that I do think the majority of Hispanics are not in favor of amnesty but are in favor of an immigration overhaul.

Then, please correct me about this if I'm wrong, you seemed to claim that "immigration overhaul" is some sort of code for "amnesty".  

If I'm right about my characterization of our discussion so far here, then please provide a link that indicates "immigration overhaul" definitely includes amnesty.  (If "immigration overhaul" is pretty much accepted as meaning "amnesty" then it shouldn't be hard for you to find a link saying so, I'm thinking.)

BTW, let me add that that I think it's funny how you make a claim that you're reluctant to back up with a link and I'm the lazy one?  WTF?  Is this some kind of "these-are-not-the-droids-you're-looking-for" kind of thing?  

You are no Jedi, BB.  This is plain weak, BB, weak.

Besides, even a Jedi can make a reading comprehension mistake.  (After all, we've seen explicit evidence of this recently, haven't we?  ;D)

 ::)  Google is your friend.  Do your own homework. 

RRKore

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::)  Google is your friend.  Do your own homework. 

OK, did it.  

Per google, "immigration overhaul" equals "immigration reform".

So, you seem to be at least partly wrong:

Immigration reform

Immigration reform is a term used in political discussion regarding changes to current immigration policy of a country. In its strict definition, "reform" means to change into an improved form or condition, by amending or removing faults or abuses. In the political sense, "immigration reform" may include promoted, expanded, or open immigration, as well as reduced or eliminated immigration.

...


You do agree, don't you, that things like tightening the borders or increasing the penalties for illegal immigrants could be included in immigration reform?

This discussion is kind of silly;  If you expect any reasonably intelligent person to believe that the majority of the Hispanics in America think that the immigration system doesn't need improvement based on your say-so alone, you are delusional.

Also, a "pathway to citizenship" does not equal "amnesty".  (A "special pathway to citizenship" might, though.)
Per (your friend and mine) google, if the "pathway to citizenship" requirements include background checks, payment of back taxes, proof of financial self-sufficiency, English proficiency, and a certain level of US civics knowledge, that would not be considered "amnesty".


Dos Equis

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OK, did it.  

Per google, "immigration overhaul" equals "immigration reform".

So, you seem to be at least partly wrong:

Immigration reform

Immigration reform is a term used in political discussion regarding changes to current immigration policy of a country. In its strict definition, "reform" means to change into an improved form or condition, by amending or removing faults or abuses. In the political sense, "immigration reform" may include promoted, expanded, or open immigration, as well as reduced or eliminated immigration.

...


You do agree, don't you, that things like tightening the borders or increasing the penalties for illegal immigrants could be included in immigration reform?

This discussion is kind of silly;  If you expect any reasonably intelligent person to believe that the majority of the Hispanics in America think that the immigration system doesn't need improvement based on your say-so alone, you are delusional.

Also, a "pathway to citizenship" does not equal "amnesty".  (A "special pathway to citizenship" might, though.)
Per (your friend and mine) google, if the "pathway to citizenship" requirements include background checks, payment of back taxes, proof of financial self-sufficiency, English proficiency, and a certain level of US civics knowledge, that would not be considered "amnesty".



Uh, right.  Where do I begin.  If you're trying to get up to speed on what the president and other politicians are advocating as part of immigration reform, you need to read about precisely what they are proposing.  Because I actually pay attention, I know that part of their "reform" or "overhaul" includes a pathway to citizenship.  And because I'm a little smarter than a rock, I know that a "pathway to citizenship" means giving legal status to people who are currently criminals, aka illegal aliens.  That is amnesty. 

So, I give you a C- for that effort, but you keep at it.   :)

Also, the issue in this discussion isn't whether Hispanics favor or oppose tightening the borders.  It is whether Hispanics have a problem with Republicans "blocking an immigration overhaul and harshly criticizing President Obama for his plan to defer deportation for undocumented migrants." 

As the information I posted earlier shows, Hispanics are not in favor of Obama's "immigration overhaul" (which includes amnesty, because they don't support amnesty).  And the information I posted further shows that they don't favor deferral of deportation of illegal aliens. 

Focus. 

RRKore

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Uh, right.  Where do I begin.  If you're trying to get up to speed on what the president and other politicians are advocating as part of immigration reform, you need to read about precisely what they are proposing.  Because I actually pay attention, I know that part of their "reform" or "overhaul" includes a pathway to citizenship.  And because I'm a little smarter than a rock, I know that a "pathway to citizenship" means giving legal status to people who are currently criminals, aka illegal aliens.  That is amnesty. 

So, I give you a C- for that effort, but you keep at it.   :)

Also, the issue in this discussion isn't whether Hispanics favor or oppose tightening the borders.  It is whether Hispanics have a problem with Republicans "blocking an immigration overhaul and harshly criticizing President Obama for his plan to defer deportation for undocumented migrants." 

As the information I posted earlier shows, Hispanics are not in favor of Obama's "immigration overhaul" (which includes amnesty, because they don't support amnesty).  And the information I posted further shows that they don't favor deferral of deportation of illegal aliens. 

Focus. 

The issue and article is about Hispanics blaming repubs for blocking immigration reform.  You are trying to say that the article is based on a false premise because the majority of Hispanics aren't in favor of immigration reform. 

I think that's wrong so I'm correcting you by saying the majority of Hispanics ARE in favor of immigration reform. 

For clarity (and in fairness, something your spin-happy self is not well-acquainted with), I'll say that it could very well be that the majority of Hispanics don't favor all parts of Obama's version of immigration reform... but they DO favor some sort of immigration reform. 

Shee-it, no one, probably not even you, thinks the current system is satisfactory.  (Even repubs that oppose immigration reform likely want a better system;  They're just afraid that the cheap labor spigot will get shut off if any reform starts to take place.)

That is all.