Regarding Mike Tyson's place in history

[Hulkotron]

lol @ whoever forwarded the Klitschkos

Prime Iron Mike would TKO both of them at once.

[The Ugly]

Absolutely. At his very peak, no boxer could/would hold him. I mean no boxer, ever. That includes Ali.

I'd thought this for years, but it ain't a popular opinion. I've seen lots of old footage, all the legends, and I really can only see Holyfield, Lewis, and the Russian giving a prime Tyson grief. He was so much more powerful than Frazier, or even Foreman. Fast as a viper, too. I'd bet my life no one on earth ever hit as hard.

The Ali crowd needs a little perspective, perhaps.

[che]

I'd bet my life no one on earth ever hit as hard.

Foreman

[Ron Harrigan]

Absolutely. At his very peak, no boxer could/would hold him. I mean no boxer, ever. That includes Ali.

Myth. This chap would have a prime Tyson for breakfast, lunch and dinner. A mere matter of seconds.

[Pray_4_War]

Frazier beat Ali , Tyson in his prime (before jail ) was Frazier on steroids , bigger , faster , stronger , better boxer ...........etc

I agree with this.

Tyson was very similar to Frazier except he was faster, and he was harder to hit.  If Frazier beat Ali once and fought him basically even 2 more times I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that Ali would have beaten Mike.  Tyson's hands were blazing fast for a heavyweight and in boxing speed kills.  He had power in both hands, not just his right.  Prime Tyson only lasted a few years but he was a bad guy.  I'd put him in the ring against anyone in history and like my chances.

[The Ugly]

Foreman

I'd disagree. Foreman is a big man, lots of leverage, but he doesn't even punch correctly. All arm, no technique whatsoever. No snap, either, just wide twisting upperbody flails. Tyson had perfect technique and inhuman power.

[G_Thang]

 Here is Mike Tyson pre-Douglas:

date      opponent   W-L-D   last 6   location                  
2005-06-11      Kevin McBride   32-4-1   
MCI Center, Washington, District of Columbia, USA   L   TKO   6   10      
time: 3:00 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Steve Rados 57-55 | judge: Tammye Jenkins 57-55 | judge: Paul Artisst 55-57
2004-07-30      Danny Williams   31-3-0   
Freedom Hall State Fairground, Louisville, Kentucky, USA   L   KO   4   10      
time: 2:51 | referee: Dennis Alfred | judge: Dan McLellan | judge: Johnny Monson | judge: Steve Ryan
2003-02-22      Clifford Etienne   24-1-1   
The Pyramid, Memphis, Tennessee, USA   W   KO   1   10      
time: 0:49 | referee: Bill Clancy | judge: Richard Barth | judge: Fred Steinwinder III | judge: Ken Whitehead
2002-06-08      Lennox Lewis   39-2-1   
The Pyramid, Memphis, Tennessee, USA   L   KO   8   12      
time: 2:25 | referee: Eddie Cotton | judge: Alfred Buqwana | judge: Anek Hongtongkam | judge: Bob Logist
WBC World heavyweight title
IBF World heavyweight title
International Boxing Organization World heavyweight title
2001-10-13      Brian Nielsen   62-1-0   
Parken, Copenhagen, Denmark   W   RTD   6   10      
referee: Steve Smoger | judge: Marty Denkin | judge: Erkki Meronen | judge: Daniel Van de Wiele
2000-10-20      Andrew Golota   36-4-0   
The Palace, Auburn Hills, Michigan, USA   NC   NC   3   10      
referee: Frank Garza | judge: Brad Wright | judge: Bernard Teachout | judge: Rosemary Grable
Golota down in 1st. Michigan Commission changes the result from a TKO after 2 for Tyson to an NC, due to Tyson testing positive for marijuana after the fight.
2000-06-24      Lou Savarese   39-3-0   
Hampden Park, Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom   W   TKO   1   10x3      
time: 0:38 | referee: John Coyle
2000-01-29      Julius Francis   21-7-0   
M.E.N. Arena, Manchester, Lancashire, United Kingdom   W   TKO   2   10x3      
time: 1:03 | referee: Roy Francis
Francis down twice in the 1st and three times in the 2nd.
1999-10-23      Orlin Norris   50-5-0   
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   NC   NC   1   10      
time: 3:00 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Art Lurie | judge: Dave Moretti | judge: Dalby Shirley
1999-01-16      Frans Botha   39-1-0   
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   KO   5   10      
time: 2:59 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Dave Moretti 36-40 | judge: Dalby Shirley 36-40 | judge: Bill Graham 36-39
1997-06-28      Evander Holyfield   33-3-0   
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   L   DQ   3   12      
referee: Mills Lane | judge: Jerry Roth 26-29 | judge: Chuck Giampa 26-29 | judge: Duane Ford 26-29
WBA World heavyweight title (supervisor: Leonard Read)
Tyson disqualified for twice biting Holyfield's ears, claiming he was retaliating to head-butting by Holyfield.
1996-11-09      Evander Holyfield   32-3-0   
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   L   TKO   11   12      
time: 0:37 | referee: Mitch Halpern | judge: Dalby Shirley 92-96 | judge: Frederico Vollmer 93-100 | judge: Jerry Roth 92-96
WBA World heavyweight title (supervisor: Leonard Read)
1996-09-07      Bruce Seldon   33-3-0   
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   TKO   1   12      
time: 1:49 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Chuck Giampa | judge: Bill Graham | judge: Dave Moretti
WBA World heavyweight title
1996-03-16      Frank Bruno   40-4-0   
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   TKO   3   12      
time: 0:50 | referee: Mills Lane | judge: Larry O'Connell 20-17 | judge: Anek Hongtongkam 20-17 | judge: Jerry Roth 20-17
WBC World heavyweight title (supervisor: Edward Thangarajah)
1995-12-16      Buster Mathis Jr.   20-0-0   
Core States Spectrum, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA   W   KO   3   12      
time: 2:32 | referee: Frank Cappuccino | judge: Ron Greenley | judge: Carol Polis | judge: Adelaide Triplett
1995-08-19      Peter McNeeley   36-1-0   
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   DQ   1   10      
time: 1:29 | referee: Mills Lane | judge: Duane Ford | judge: Chuck Giampa | judge: Bill Graham
1991-06-28      Donovan Ruddock   25-2-1   
Mirage Hotel & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   UD   12   12      
referee: Mills Lane | judge: Chuck Giampa 113-109 | judge: Art Lurie 114-108 | judge: Dalby Shirley 114-108
1991-03-18      Donovan Ruddock   25-1-1   
Mirage Hotel & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   TKO   7   12      
time: 2:22 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Chuck Giampa 59-53 | judge: Dave Moretti 59-53 | judge: Jerry Roth 59-53
1990-12-08      Alex Stewart   26-1-0   
Convention Center, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USA   W   TKO   1   10      
time: 2:27 | referee: Frank Cappuccino | judge: John Stewart | judge: Eugene Grant | judge: Rocky Castellani
1990-06-16      Henry Tillman   20-4-0   
Caesars Palace, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   KO   1   10      
time: 2:47 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Chuck Giampa | judge: Art Lurie | judge: Dalby Shirley
1990-02-11      James Douglas   29-4-1   
Tokyo Dome, Tokyo, Japan   L   KO   10   12      
time: 1:22 | referee: Octavio Meyran | judge: Larry Rozadilla 82-88 | judge: Ken Morita 87-86 | judge: Masakazu Uchida 86-86
WBC World heavyweight title (supervisor: Elias Ghanem)
WBA World heavyweight title (supervisor: Manuel Virgilio Aizprua)
IBF World heavyweight title
Douglas down in round 8
1989-07-21      Carl Williams   22-2-0   
Convention Center, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USA   W   TKO   1   12      
time: 1:33 | referee: Randy Neumann | judge: Richard F. Murry | judge: Chuck Giampa | judge: Rocky Castellani
WBC World heavyweight title
WBA World heavyweight title (supervisor: James Binns)
IBF World heavyweight title
1989-02-25      Frank Bruno   32-2-0   
Las Vegas Hilton, Hilton Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   TKO   5   12      
time: 2:55 | referee: Richard Steele | judge: Jerry Roth 40-35 | judge: Omar Mintun 40-34 | judge: Rodolfo Maldonado 40-34
WBC World heavyweight title
WBA World heavyweight title (supervisor: James Nave)
IBF World heavyweight title (supervisor: Alvin Goodman)
Bruno penalized one point in the 1st for holding and he was also dropped in the 1st.
1988-06-27      Michael Spinks   31-0-0   
Convention Hall, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USA   W   KO   1   12      
time: 1:31 | referee: Frank Cappuccino | judge: Eva Shain | judge: John Stewart | judge: Rocky Castellani
WBC World heavyweight title (supervisor: Elias Ghanem)
WBA World heavyweight title (supervisor: James Binns)
IBF World heavyweight title (supervisor: Bill Brennan)
1988-03-21      Tony Tubbs   24-1-0   
Tokyo Dome, Tokyo, Japan   W   TKO   2   12      
time: 2:54 | referee: Arthur Mercante | judge: Larry Rozadilla 9-10 | judge: Ken Morita 10-10 | judge: Masakazu Uchida 10-9
WBC World heavyweight title (supervisor: Gabriel Penagaricano)
WBA World heavyweight title (supervisor: Elias Cordova)
IBF World heavyweight title
1988-01-22      Larry Holmes   48-2-0   
Convention Center, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USA   W   TKO   4   12      
time: 2:55 | referee: Joe Cortez | judge: Charley Spina 29-28 | judge: Nicasio L. Drake 30-27 | judge: Rudy Ortega 29-28
WBC World heavyweight title (supervisor: Duane Ford)
WBA World heavyweight title (supervisor: James Binns)
IBF World heavyweight title
1987-10-16      Tyrell Biggs   15-0-0   
Convention Hall, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USA   W   TKO   7   15      
time: 2:59 | referee: Tony Orlando | judge: Al Wilensky 60-54 | judge: John Stewart 60-54 | judge: Frank Brunette 60-52
WBC World heavyweight title (supervisor: James Binns)
WBA World heavyweight title (supervisor: Keith Arthur)
IBF World heavyweight title (supervisor: Robert Lee)
1987-08-01      Tony Tucker   34-0-0   
Las Vegas Hilton, Hilton Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   UD   12   12      
referee: Mills Lane | judge: Julio Roldan 118-113 | judge: Phil Newman 119-111 | judge: Bill Graham 117-112
WBC World heavyweight title
WBA World heavyweight title
IBF World heavyweight title
1987-05-30      Pinklon Thomas   29-1-1   
Las Vegas Hilton, Outdoor Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   TKO   6   12      
time: 2:00 | referee: Carlos Padilla | judge: Dalby Shirley 49-46 | judge: Gordon Volkman 50-44 | judge: Harry Gibbs 49-46
WBC World heavyweight title (supervisor: Arlen Bynum)
WBA World heavyweight title (supervisor: Nick Kerasiotis)
1987-03-07      James Smith   19-5-0   
Las Vegas Hilton, Outdoor Arena, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   UD   12   12      
referee: Mills Lane | judge: Lou Tabat 120-106 | judge: Dalby Shirley 119-107 | judge: Jose Juan Guerra 119-107
WBC World heavyweight title
WBA World heavyweight title
1986-11-22      Trevor Berbick   31-4-1   
Hilton Hotel, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   TKO   2   12      
time: 2:35 | referee: Mills Lane | judge: Harry Gibbs 10-8 | judge: Dave Moretti 10-9 | judge: Rudy Ortega 10-9
WBC World heavyweight title
Berbick knocked down twice in round 2. After trying to rise from the second knockdown he fell another two times.r
1986-09-06      Alfonzo Ratliff   21-3-0   
Las Vegas Hilton, Hilton Center, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   W   TKO   2   10      
time: 1:41 | referee: Davey Pearl | judge: Dave Moretti | judge: Paul Smith | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman
1986-08-17      Jose Ribalta   22-3-1   
Trump Plaza Hotel, Atlantic City, New Jersey, USA   W   TKO   10   10   



James Smith and Tony Tucker took him the distance during his prime run.  You'd have to compare those two to Ali and Foreman.  Then, you have to play a little generational matchmaking like Foreman on the same shit Tyson was one. Ali and Foreman had damn good punch resistance, and Mike was a shell of himself after the 6-7th round or so.  Holyfield, an undersized HW, absorbed Tysons punch well.  I got Al 2 out of 3 in a Trilogy with Tyson.  If Tyson doesn't get Foreman out in the 1st 4 rounds, those clubbing shots start to wear Tyson, the smaller man, down.

[che]

he doesn't even punch correctly ,   no technique whatsoever ,   No snap,

68 KO

[ProudVirgin69]

I'd disagree. Foreman is a big man, lots of leverage, but he doesn't even punch correctly. All arm, no technique whatsoever. No snap, either, just wide twisting upperbody flails. Tyson had perfect technique and inhuman power.

I know what you mean, his form looks crappy, but everyone he fought said he was the hardest puncher they ever faced.  68 KOs out 76 wins/81 total fights is unbelievable

I think Tyson's knockouts came from his accuracy moreso than his power.  Yeah the guy hit like a mule, but he placed his shots so well that each punch did maximum damage, making them look harder then they were  

[The Ugly]

68 KO

Understood. Likewise, Babe Ruth hit more homeruns than entire teams. Shit, probably more than the whole league. Worlds beyond his contemporaries; still, shitty swing. Horrible technique, just compare his batting clips to, say, Ted Williams years later. Night and day. But it's all it took at the time. Put Ruth against a modern pitcher, though ... forget it.

Perspective is all.

[The Ugly]

I know what you mean, his form looks crappy, but everyone he fought said he was the hardest puncher they ever faced.  68 KOs out 76 wins/81 total fights is unbelievable

I think Tyson's knockouts came from his accuracy moreso than his power.  Yeah the guy hit like a mule, but he placed his shots so well that each punch did maximum damage, making them look harder then they were  

I'd argue it was both.

[AbrahamG]

Tyson always was a front runner.  That would never have worked with the likes of Holyfield, Lewis, Ali and Foreman just to name a few.  The 1st Holyfield-Tyson fight was very competitive for 4-5 rounds.  Watch the 5th round, Tyson hits Holyfield with as good a two punch combo as you'll see.  A digging left hook to the body with a left uppercut to follow.  Both hit Holyfield flush and he didn't take a step back but instead fired right back.  The fight was over at that point.

Tyson also fought in a pitiful era post Holmes in the late 80's.  Would have like to have seen him fight both Greg Page and Tim Witherspoon.  Witherspoon was a beast.

Definitely not a top 10 all time heavyweight.  Definitely not a top 100 all time fighter.  I'd say he's top 15 heavyweight material all time.

Ali, Louis, Larry Holmes, Foreman, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Lennox, Holyfield, Joe Frazier, Marciano and Liston.  That's 11 right there and it's getting to the point where if a couple more years go by
and Wladmir continues winning and cleaning out his division, he's knocking on the door of the top 10 if not kicking it in. 

[The Ugly]

Tyson always was a front runner.  That would never have worked with the likes of Holyfield, Lewis, Ali and Foreman just to name a few.  The 1st Holyfield-Tyson fight was very competitive for 4-5 rounds.  Watch the 5th round, Tyson hits Holyfield with as good a two punch combo as you'll see.  A digging left hook to the body with a left uppercut to follow.  Both hit Holyfield flush and he didn't take a step back but instead fired right back.  The fight was over at that point.

Tyson also fought in a pitiful era post Holmes in the late 80's.  Would have like to have seen him fight both Greg Page and Tim Witherspoon.  Witherspoon was a beast.

Definitely not a top 10 all time heavyweight.  Definitely not a top 100 all time fighter.  I'd say he's top 15 heavyweight material all time.

Ali, Louis, Larry Holmes, Foreman, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Lennox, Holyfield, Joe Frazier, Marciano and Liston.  That's 11 right there and it's getting to the point where if a couple more years go by
and Wladmir continues winning and cleaning out his division, he's knocking on the door of the top 10 if not kicking it in. 

Remind me who Holmes fought.

[AbrahamG]

Remind me who Holmes fought.

Guess what, he ran off 48 wins in a row.  Got up off the canvas and knocked guys out.  Was definitely screwed in the Spinks rematch
and in my opinion was screwed in both Spinks bouts.  Most importantly, he never lost to Buster Douglass.

[The Ugly]

Guess what, he ran off 48 wins in a row.  Got up off the canvas and knocked guys out.  Was definitely screwed in the Spinks rematch
and in my opinion was screwed in both Spinks bouts.  Most importantly, he never lost to Buster Douglass.

Wasn't being sarcastic, I just don't recall. Was his era more competitive than Tyson's?

[Dave D]

Foreman

This was what I've always thought too, but I watched Facing Ali and they all agreed Ken Norton was the hardest hitter, which was something I never heard before.

On a side note Ray Mercer said Tommy Morrison was the hardest puncher he ever encountered.

[AbrahamG]

Wasn't being sarcastic, I just don't recall. Was his era more competitive than Tyson's?

Sorry if I came off like a prick.  Similar to Tysons.  Holmes won his title against Ken Norton and Tyson won his against Trevor Berbick.  Ken
Norton is better than anyone Tyson ever beat except for Holmes.  The Holmes that Tyson beat had been retired for either 2 or 3 years and
wasn't the real Larry Holmes.

Had Holmes and Tyson met in their respective primes, Tyson would have had some good early moments which Holmes would have weathered.  Holmes would eventually
wear Tyson down to a late rounds stoppage.  Similar to the 1st Tyson-Holyfield fight.

[The Ugly]

This was what I've always thought too, but I watched Facing Ali and they all agreed Ken Norton was the hardest hitter, which was something I never heard before.

On a side note Ray Mercer said Tommy Morrison was the hardest puncher he ever encountered.

Foreman said Cooney hit him harder than anybody.

[Dave D]

Foreman said Cooney hit him harder than anybody.

You're right he didn't say Norton.  Interesting read:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-74422.html

[BB]

Remind me who Holmes fought.

Shavers, Norton, Weaver, Cooney, Witherspoon, Mercer, and although a loss, went the distance with Holyfield.

Some World class punchers on that list, and Larry could hang and recover, and exchange with all of them. Size isn't an issue, as he's got Tyson by 5 inches, weights are close, reach - Larry's got him by 10".

I figure Holmes by UD, or he flusters him in the later rounds for the knock out, the former being the most likely.

[AbrahamG]

Shavers, Norton, Weaver, Cooney, Witherspoon, Mercer, and although a loss, went the distance with Holyfield.

Some World class punchers on that list, and Larry could hang and recover, and exchange with all of them. Size isn't an issue, as he's got Tyson by 5 inches, weights are close, reach - Larry's got him by 10".

I figure Holmes by UD, or he flusters him in the later rounds for the knock out, the former being the most likely.

The Mercer win was huge.  It was a shut out of a prime legit #1 contender.  To me the Holyfield loss was even more impressive as I remember thinking that bout was dead even after 10.  Unfortunately for Holmes, he was in his 40's and couldn't keep up with a prime Holyfield for those final 2 rounds.  To years later, I had him up after 9 rounds against Oliver McCall who was fresh off his 2nd round KO of Lennox, but like 2 years earlier, he ran out of gas the final 3 rounds.  Still a remarkable performance.

[Pray_4_War]

Tyson always was a front runner.  That would never have worked with the likes of Holyfield, Lewis, Ali and Foreman just to name a few.  The 1st Holyfield-Tyson fight was very competitive for 4-5 rounds.  Watch the 5th round, Tyson hits Holyfield with as good a two punch combo as you'll see.  A digging left hook to the body with a left uppercut to follow.  Both hit Holyfield flush and he didn't take a step back but instead fired right back.  The fight was over at that point.

Tyson also fought in a pitiful era post Holmes in the late 80's.  Would have like to have seen him fight both Greg Page and Tim Witherspoon.  Witherspoon was a beast.

Definitely not a top 10 all time heavyweight.  Definitely not a top 100 all time fighter.  I'd say he's top 15 heavyweight material all time.

Ali, Louis, Larry Holmes, Foreman, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Lennox, Holyfield, Joe Frazier, Marciano and Liston.  That's 11 right there and it's getting to the point where if a couple more years go by
and Wladmir continues winning and cleaning out his division, he's knocking on the door of the top 10 if not kicking it in. 

Excuse me but where was Lennox Lewis for the 15 years leading up to his fight with Tyson in 2002.  Lewis and Tyson are the same age but yet Lewis took forever and a fucking day to become a top level fighter.  Same thing with Evander, that dude was a cruzerweight when Tyson was in his prime and didn't become great until much later on after he roided up and put on weight.  Fuck all those guys

Ali is Ali, maybe Foreman for the 6 months that he was at his best, but if you think any of those other guys could have beaten a prime Mike Tyson you have lost your mind. Vladmir?  lol.  This dude is obviously trolling.

[AbrahamG]

Excuse me but where was Lennox Lewis for the 15 years leading up to his fight with Tyson in 2002.  Lewis and Tyson are the same age but yet Lewis took forever and a fucking day to become a top level fighter.  Same thing with Evander, that dude was a cruzerweight when Tyson was in his prime and didn't become great until much later on after he roided up and put on weight.  Fuck all those guys

Ali is Ali, maybe Foreman for the 6 months that he was at his best, but if you think any of those other guys could have beaten a prime Mike Tyson you have lost your mind. Vladmir?  lol.  This dude is obviously trolling.

We'll see.  I've never been a big fan of Wladmir and yes, the pre Manny Steward version would probably have gotten KO'd by Mike.  The post Manny version, like Lennox would need only make it through 3 rounds with Mike and it would be a beatdown of Iron Mike thereafter. 

Wladmir's brother would have absolutely punked any version of Mike Tyson.  Vitali is a bad guy.  Sonny Liston would have jabbed Tyson into a shell after a round.  Another bad guy.  The young version of Big George would have overwhelmed Tyson.  The old version would have taken longer, but ditto on the results.

[The Ugly]

Shavers, Norton, Weaver, Cooney, Witherspoon, Mercer, and although a loss, went the distance with Holyfield.

Some World class punchers on that list, and Larry could hang and recover, and exchange with all of them. Size isn't an issue, as he's got Tyson by 5 inches, weights are close, reach - Larry's got him by 10".

I figure Holmes by UD, or he flusters him in the later rounds for the knock out, the former being the most likely.

Man, those Holmes fights were painful for me. I hated his reign. Not undermining what he did, it was just so f'n boring.

[AbrahamG]

Man, those Holmes fights were painful for me. I hated his reign. Not undermining what he did, it was just so f'n boring.

I'm actually a fan of Mike Tyson the human being, but watch his title fights save for the Berbick, Holmes and Spinks wins.  Hug fests with Bonecrusher and Tony Tucker just to name a few.