Should Cops Be Allowed to Kill for Throwing Stones?

[Skip8282]

They have 2 viewpoints of the video. 

The guy picks up a rock, throws, and they shoot/taze him.

He runs, crosses a street, freezes with hands up, then runs again.

I don't see any scenario where they think a rock magically reappears in his hands. 

Rather, more likely, they were already in "shoot this motherfvvker" mode (because he had a rock up), and just like in many other cases, when they finally did cross the street to him, his hands were empty, his hands were up, and he was shot because of "some shit that happened earlier".

He was shot because he threw a rock at them.  Then he ran, crossed street, ran, froze, put hands up, and was shot by a few of them.  THIS is what I hate - the "continuation" where person can do something, run, surrender, then be executed, and these pussy idiot wimp suckups say "well, he shouldn't have thrown a rock".

Sickening that some people are that soft.  He was no longer a "deadly threat" and his hands were up.  Just arrest him, you  murderous fucks.

He could've picked up 4 rocks and only thrown 3 with one still in his hand.  We just can't tell at this point.

[Dos Equis]

As far as I know (understanding that it's still under investigation), only the video that seems to indicate he was surrendering, but could also indicate he was about to throw again.

If somebody was throwing rocks at you, would you be justified in using lethal force?  Do you think a prosecutor would put you away?

The video looked like he was shot right after he threw a rock, not after he ran away.  Or am I missing something? 

Depends.  If someone was throwing softball sized rocks at me then absolutely.  I doubt a grand jury would indict me.  If they did, I doubt a jury would convict me.  No reasonable person is going to require me to sit there and get pummeled by softball sized rocks.  Unless I'm living under Sharia law.    

[Skip8282]

The video looked like he was shot right after he threw a rock, not after he ran away.  Or am I missing something? 

Depends.  If someone was throwing softball sized rocks at me then absolutely.  I doubt a grand jury would indict me.  If they did, I doubt a jury would convict me.  No reasonable person is going to require me to sit there and get pummeled by softball sized rocks.  Unless I'm living under Sharia law.    

No, they shoot him when they chase him along the building, not right when he was throwing the rocks.  They chase, he turns, they shoot.

I might be conflating the issue when asking your opinion.

You and I would probably not be in a completely comparable situation.  We would not have to pursue him.  The cops HAD to pursue him.  So, the issue is:

Should they have shot him when he - at least appears - trying to surrender

or

Given they had a fraction of a second to decide and it - at least appears - he might be getting ready to throw again. 

I can't tell from the video.

[Dos Equis]

No, they shoot him when they chase him along the building, not right when he was throwing the rocks.  They chase, he turns, they shoot.

I might be conflating the issue when asking your opinion.

You and I would probably not be in a completely comparable situation.  We would not have to pursue him.  The cops HAD to pursue him.  So, the issue is:

Should they have shot him when he - at least appears - trying to surrender

or

Given they had a fraction of a second to decide and it - at least appears - he might be getting ready to throw again. 

I can't tell from the video.

Just to clarify, he was shot when he was out of view on the clip, right?  Not after he appeared on the other side of the car?  That's the way it looks to me. 

[Skip8282]

Just to clarify, he was shot when he was out of view on the clip, right?  Not after he appeared on the other side of the car?  That's the way it looks to me. 

This seems to be a better video and you can hear the gunshots right when he stops running.  He's shot right along the wall.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2015/feb/12/pasco-washington-fatal-police-shooting-antonio-zambrano-montes-video

[Skip8282]

This video is real clear...doesn't cut out at all and you can see the whole thing.  Wow...now I'm really not sure this was justified.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/17/us/killing-in-washington-state-offers-ferguson-moment-for-hispanics.html?_r=0

[Dos Equis]

This seems to be a better video and you can hear the gunshots right when he stops running.  He's shot right along the wall.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2015/feb/12/pasco-washington-fatal-police-shooting-antonio-zambrano-montes-video

Thanks.  There are two separate rounds of shots.  The first happens at about the 5 second point, about 1 second after he threw a rock.  The second happens at about the 20 second point, right as it looks as though he stopped running, turns back towards the police, and is about to throw something.  It freezes at that point, but it does not look like he was shot while he was running away.  

[240 is Back]

As far as I know (understanding that it's still under investigation), only the video that seems to indicate he was surrendering, but could also indicate he was about to throw again.

If somebody was throwing rocks at you, would you be justified in using lethal force?  Do you think a prosecutor would put you away?

unless he had some magical reload - where would another fcking rock come from/??

[Dos Equis]

This video is real clear...doesn't cut out at all and you can see the whole thing.  Wow...now I'm really not sure this was justified.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/17/us/killing-in-washington-state-offers-ferguson-moment-for-hispanics.html?_r=0

That's the best clip yet.  Doesn't change my opinion.  It looks like he might be trying to throw rocks again right when they shot him.

The thing I hate about these types of situations, both with law enforcement and the military, is we're sitting at a computer looking at this frame-by-frame (which is what I just did).  Classic MMQB.  That's a far cry from making decisions in real time.  Not saying it's justified solely because of that, but just that it isn't entirely fair to the people making decisions in real time to have their judgment questioned by someone sitting behind a slow motion computer screen in an air conditioned office.  

[240 is Back]

Just to clarify, he was shot when he was out of view on the clip, right?  Not after he appeared on the other side of the car?  That's the way it looks to me.  

no, we clearly see him as his life ends.  there are 2 videos, 2 people filming it.  

[Dos Equis]

no, we clearly see him as his life ends.  there are 2 videos, 2 people filming it.  

I obviously asked that question before Skip posted the clips showing the entire shooting.   

[240 is Back]

That's the best clip yet.  Doesn't change my opinion.  It looks like he might be trying to throw rocks again right when they shot him.

The thing I hate about these types of situations, both with law enforcement and the military, is we're sitting at a computer looking at this frame-by-frame (which is what I just did).  Classic MMQB.  That's a far cry from making decisions in real time.  Not saying it's justified solely because of that, but just that it isn't entirely fair to the people making decisions in real time to have their judgment questioned by someone sitting behind a slow motion computer screen in an air conditioned office.  

cops are trained, for months and years, to be able to look at a man's hands and quickly decide if they should shoot him or not.

he threw his rock.  He never leaves their sight.  Unless he has magic video-game reload, I'd love ot see where they get any idea "he must have gotten more rocks" lol.

They shot him BECAUSE THEY HAD ALREADY STARTED SHOOTING HIM.   And that' disturbing.  Bad guy creates space and goes from being an armed attacker to a possibly wounded, already tazed, fleeing unarmed idiot.  Can't shoot those, no matter how easy the shot.

[240 is Back]

I obviously asked that question before Skip posted the clips showing the entire shooting.   

ah gotcha.   I saw the video a few days back, i thought they were justified when they fired early shots at the car, when rock was overhead. 

I thought the later part of the shoot - when he's fleeing and unarmed - was just punishment, cops finishing the job. 

[polychronopolous]

That's the best clip yet.  Doesn't change my opinion.  It looks like he might be trying to throw rocks again right when they shot him.

The thing I hate about these types of situations, both with law enforcement and the military, is we're sitting at a computer looking at this frame-by-frame (which is what I just did).  Classic MMQB.  That's a far cry from making decisions in real time.  Not saying it's justified solely because of that, but just that it isn't entirely fair to the people making decisions in real time to have their judgment questioned by someone sitting behind a slow motion computer screen in an air conditioned office.  

X1000

[Dos Equis]

cops are trained, for months and years, to be able to look at a man's hands and quickly decide if they should shoot him or not.

he threw his rock.  He never leaves their sight.  Unless he has magic video-game reload, I'd love ot see where they get any idea "he must have gotten more rocks" lol.

They shot him BECAUSE THEY HAD ALREADY STARTED SHOOTING HIM.   And that' disturbing.  Bad guy creates space and goes from being an armed attacker to a possibly wounded, already tazed, fleeing unarmed idiot.  Can't shoot those, no matter how easy the shot.

You don't have the first clue how cops are trained.  That much is clear.

You constantly invent facts.  That is also clear.

You are pretty much always wrong about these stories, because you repeatedly make up facts to suit whatever twisted narrative you want to spout.  That is abundantly clear as well. 

[240 is Back]

You don't have the first clue how cops are trained.  That much is clear.
You constantly invent facts.  That is also clear.
You are pretty much always wrong about these stories, because you repeatedly make up facts to suit whatever twisted narrative you want to spout.  That is abundantly clear as well. 

you attacked me about 7 times there.

how about attacking the statement I made? 

[Skip8282]

That's the best clip yet.  Doesn't change my opinion.  It looks like he might be trying to throw rocks again right when they shot him.

The thing I hate about these types of situations, both with law enforcement and the military, is we're sitting at a computer looking at this frame-by-frame (which is what I just did).  Classic MMQB.  That's a far cry from making decisions in real time.  Not saying it's justified solely because of that, but just that it isn't entirely fair to the people making decisions in real time to have their judgment questioned by someone sitting behind a slow motion computer screen in an air conditioned office.   

That's not just cops and military, it's true for just about any trial where split second decisions were made.  The judges and juries have the luxury of hindsight and the 'real time' issue is just another consideration that has to be taken in with everything else.

[240 is Back]

cops are trained, for months and years, to be able to look at a man's hands and quickly decide if they should shoot him or not.

beach bum, is this true or false?  

[240 is Back]

That's not just cops and military, it's true for just about any trial where split second decisions were made.  The judges and juries have the luxury of hindsight and the 'real time' issue is just another consideration that has to be taken in with everything else.

but when you remember there were a handful of cops, and one bad guy armed with a rock...

and the bad guy was running away after being shot/tazed...

They were not in immanent fear for their life, sorry, but I don't see it at all.  He's trying to get away.  This isn't trayvon on top of zimmerman punching him... this is bad guy wearing a bullet and/or taze, trying to run, getting shot with hands empty and up.   

Tough to blame "heat of the moment" when dude is fleeing wounded unarmed.  I have higher expectations of LEO - you know why?  because if you, or me, or any other civilian shot a guy legally - then CHASED HIM DOWN and killed him unarmed with hands in air acter crossiing the street - it's be prison time   and we're not trained as well as police.

[Skip8282]

but when you remember there were a handful of cops, and one bad guy armed with a rock...

and the bad guy was running away after being shot/tazed...

They were not in immanent fear for their life, sorry, but I don't see it at all.  He's trying to get away.  This isn't trayvon on top of zimmerman punching him... this is bad guy wearing a bullet and/or taze, trying to run, getting shot with hands empty and up.   

Tough to blame "heat of the moment" when dude is fleeing wounded unarmed.  I have higher expectations of LEO - you know why?  because if you, or me, or any other civilian shot a guy legally - then CHASED HIM DOWN and killed him unarmed with hands in air acter crossiing the street - it's be prison time   and we're not trained as well as police.

Oh cops use the frame by frame shit to when it suits them.  I still remember watching the Rodney King trial where the cops went down frame by frame claiming that the tiniest of movement justified yet another blow.

I suspect Beach might just be a little bit uncomfortable after seeing that clear video just as I am.  We'll need to wait for all the facts, of course.

The problem I see with your argument is that we don't have to chase somebody down.  They do.  So we can't really compare it in that sense, more of a reasonable person sense.

[Dos Equis]

you attacked me about 7 times there.

how about attacking the statement I made? 

I did.

[Dos Equis]

That's not just cops and military, it's true for just about any trial where split second decisions were made.  The judges and juries have the luxury of hindsight and the 'real time' issue is just another consideration that has to be taken in with everything else.

True.  It's not entirely fair in any situation where split decisions are made, but I'm talking more about use of deadly force. 

[Dos Equis]

beach bum, is this true or false?  

Give me a link.  As I have repeatedly told you, I accept nothing you say at face value.

[240 is Back]

Give me a link.  As I have repeatedly told you, I accept nothing you say at face value.

  You actually want to debate whether police are trained to look in a person's hand when deciding whether or not to use force?

[Dos Equis]

Oh cops use the frame by frame shit to when it suits them.  I still remember watching the Rodney King trial where the cops went down frame by frame claiming that the tiniest of movement justified yet another blow.

I suspect Beach might just be a little bit uncomfortable after seeing that clear video just as I am.  We'll need to wait for all the facts, of course.

The problem I see with your argument is that we don't have to chase somebody down.  They do.  So we can't really compare it in that sense, more of a reasonable person sense.

Yeah.  That Rodney King slow mo showed a guy getting the crap beat out of him verrrry slowly.  Total police brutality.

I agree with the rest of your comments too for the most part.  I don't know what happened before the clip started, what was said, whether anyone was hit, whether kids were around, drugs, etc.