Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!

[gib]

How is Ripple?

I also see that Ethereum performed better than Bitcoin this year in terms of growth.

It is foolish to think that an imitator will succeed over BTC. BTC already has the critical mass, network effect, industry support, and many many powerful people and organizations incentivized to ensure it succeeds as the ultimate digital store of value. Most alts including Ripple and Eth are not decentralized, which is one of many major floors. Read my prior posts where I explain to Mr A the foolishness of looking at an alt crypto "because it cheaper".

Its like trying to predict an alt to Coca Cola, that may succeed against the real thing. Thousands of imitators try, get a little bit of traction, but eventually fail.

That is not to say, that an alt may over short periods outperform BTC. But very hard to time. So, as I have said many time before, buy BTC. HODL. Very simple.

Video of interest:

[Mayday]

Interesting to hear him make the same comments I do about gold not working.

Although if he read this thread he would understand why.

[obsidian]

It is foolish to think that an imitator will succeed over BTC. BTC already has the critical mass, network effect, industry support, and many many powerful people and organizations incentivized to ensure it succeeds as the ultimate digital store of value. Most alts including Ripple and Eth are not decentralized, which is one of many major floors. Read my prior posts where I explain to Mr A the foolishness of looking at an alt crypto "because it cheaper".

Its like trying to predict an alt to Coca Cola, that may succeed against the real thing. Thousands of imitators try, get a little bit of traction, but eventually fail.

That is not to say, that an alt may over short periods outperform BTC. But very hard to time. So, as I have said many time before, buy BTC. HODL. Very simple.

Video of interest:

Not succeed over BTC. They can coexist. There are others like me for example that are not interested in getting into BTC at the high point where it is right now. If BTC dropped down to 3K or less then maybe. So BTC's high price also holds it back a bit I think. We'll see where it all goes. I plan to get some BTC if ETH catches up a bit. I want to see a ratio of 1:10 or even 1:15. At that point I would get some BTC.

[gib]

Not succeed over BTC. They can coexist. There are others like me for example that are not interested in getting into BTC at the high point where it is right now. If BTC dropped down to 3K or less then maybe. So BTC's high price also holds it back a bit I think. We'll see where it all goes. I plan to get some BTC if ETH catches up a bit. I want to see a ratio of 1:10 or even 1:15. At that point I would get some BTC.

You are fooling yourself if you think BTC as at a "high price" and that others are cheaper. Is akin to idiots who buy "penny stocks as they are cheaper". (No offence intended here, I am genuinely trying to educate you).

 If it helps, just measure BTC in santoshies (as opposed to the value of an entire coin) and then you can convince yourself its "cheap".

The way any new currency evolves is that there is a collective agreement on what will be used as a store of value. Its ultimately a zero sum game. One crypto emerges as digital gold, the rest fail.

[gib]

Obsidian, can I suggest you take the time to listen to this. Its well well worth it. And then come back and tell me if your thinking has changed?

[Mayday]

Not succeed over BTC. They can coexist. There are others like me for example that are not interested in getting into BTC at the high point where it is right now. If BTC dropped down to 3K or less then maybe. So BTC's high price also holds it back a bit I think. We'll see where it all goes. I plan to get some BTC if ETH catches up a bit. I want to see a ratio of 1:10 or even 1:15. At that point I would get some BTC.

Energy for alt coins is very diluted vs 2017.

In 2017 there was 1700 coin options.

In 2020 there are 7,000+.

BTC is the only one at previous high. The others are way way behind. You won’t see the previous ratios again because non-BtC money is just traders looking for quick plays across 6,999 possible options.

[polychronopolous]

Not succeed over BTC. They can coexist. There are others like me for example that are not interested in getting into BTC at the high point where it is right now. If BTC dropped down to 3K or less then maybe. So BTC's high price also holds it back a bit I think. We'll see where it all goes. I plan to get some BTC if ETH catches up a bit. I want to see a ratio of 1:10 or even 1:15. At that point I would get some BTC.

Multi million and billion dollar businesses are buying Bitcoin and burying it deep into cold storage where it will not be touched for years. This is not 2018 where you had weak hands selling at the slightest bit of negative news or pullbacks. These companies have done their due diligence, they know what they own and they are going to hold onto it. Long term.

I would expect a supply crunch and a skyrocketing price much more than some massive crash. Anything less than 10k is a pipe dream and anything under 15k is also unlikely imo.

[polychronopolous]

JPMorgan predicts $600 billion from institutions will flow into Bitcoin


TL:DR Breakdown:

    JPMorgan recently stated that billions of dollars would soon flow from institutions to Bitcoin.

Following the recent Bitcoin investment by MassMutual, the bank predicted that more insurance companies are likely to follow suit.

It’s no longer a doubt that institutions and corporations will adopt Bitcoin (BTC), the largest crypto by market capitalization. In this year alone, many billion-dollar companies have been reported to buying a large amount of the cryptocurrency. Following the increasing rate of BTC adoption, the leading bank in the United States, JPMorgan Chase, opined that about $600 billion would possibly flow into the cryptocurrency from institutional investors.
JPMorgan foresees mainstream institutional adoption

According to JPMorgan, the $600 billion inflow to Bitcoin would come when pension funds and insurance companies in prominent places like Japan, United States, and Europe, allocate just one percent of their assets in the digital currency. The bank’s statement was stirred by the news that Massachusetts Mutual (MassMutual) invested $100 million in Bitcoin. The insurance company has more than $200 billion in its investment portfolio.
 
More companies in the space are likely to join the train, said JPMorgan. “MassMutual’s Bitcoin purchases represent another milestone in the Bitcoin adoption by institutional investors. One can see the potential demand that could arise over the coming years as other insurance companies and pension funds follow MassMutual’s example.”

The strategists at the bank sometimes noted that the institutional adoption of Bitcoin is only getting started.
Bitcoin corporate investors

Many companies bought a substantial amount of Bitcoin this year, with the lead company being MicroStrategy, which currently has over 40,000 BTC on its reserve. Square Inc. is another prominent company holding about $50 million in Bitcoin. According to the information on Bitcoin Treasury, there are about 15 publicly-traded companies holding Bitcoin in their reserve.

These include Galaxy Digital Holdings, Riot Blockchain, DigitalX, and more.

https://www.cryptopolitan.com/jpmorgan-billion-from-institutions-bitcoin/

[Mr Anabolic]

[obsidian]

You are fooling yourself if you think BTC as at a "high price" and that others are cheaper. Is akin to idiots who buy "penny stocks as they are cheaper". (No offence intended here, I am genuinely trying to educate you).

 If it helps, just measure BTC in santoshies (as opposed to the value of an entire coin) and then you can convince yourself its "cheap".

The way any new currency evolves is that there is a collective agreement on what will be used as a store of value. Its ultimately a zero sum game. One crypto emerges as digital gold, the rest fail.

If your position is that Ethereum is doomed and Bitcoin is the only one that's shooting to the moon I think you are delusional (no offense). Ethereum has a lot more development going on and proof of stake is not exactly going to hurt the price of Ethereum.

The price of Ethereum or Bitcoin will be whatever people value it to be. Proof of stake will reduce the supply of Ethereum because people will have an incentive not to sell their ETH.

Ethereum's value has increased by a larger percentage than Bitcoin's in 2020. Yes since 2017 it's still behind Bitcoin but the movement in 2020 is encouraging.

I think both will increase in value. We'll have to see by how much.

https://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-outpaces-bitcoin-developer-activity-2020-electric-capital-report

[obsidian]

JPMorgan predicts $600 billion from institutions will flow into Bitcoin


TL:DR Breakdown:

    JPMorgan recently stated that billions of dollars would soon flow from institutions to Bitcoin.

Following the recent Bitcoin investment by MassMutual, the bank predicted that more insurance companies are likely to follow suit.

It’s no longer a doubt that institutions and corporations will adopt Bitcoin (BTC), the largest crypto by market capitalization. In this year alone, many billion-dollar companies have been reported to buying a large amount of the cryptocurrency. Following the increasing rate of BTC adoption, the leading bank in the United States, JPMorgan Chase, opined that about $600 billion would possibly flow into the cryptocurrency from institutional investors.
JPMorgan foresees mainstream institutional adoption

According to JPMorgan, the $600 billion inflow to Bitcoin would come when pension funds and insurance companies in prominent places like Japan, United States, and Europe, allocate just one percent of their assets in the digital currency. The bank’s statement was stirred by the news that Massachusetts Mutual (MassMutual) invested $100 million in Bitcoin. The insurance company has more than $200 billion in its investment portfolio.
 
More companies in the space are likely to join the train, said JPMorgan. “MassMutual’s Bitcoin purchases represent another milestone in the Bitcoin adoption by institutional investors. One can see the potential demand that could arise over the coming years as other insurance companies and pension funds follow MassMutual’s example.”

The strategists at the bank sometimes noted that the institutional adoption of Bitcoin is only getting started.
Bitcoin corporate investors

Many companies bought a substantial amount of Bitcoin this year, with the lead company being MicroStrategy, which currently has over 40,000 BTC on its reserve. Square Inc. is another prominent company holding about $50 million in Bitcoin. According to the information on Bitcoin Treasury, there are about 15 publicly-traded companies holding Bitcoin in their reserve.

These include Galaxy Digital Holdings, Riot Blockchain, DigitalX, and more.

https://www.cryptopolitan.com/jpmorgan-billion-from-institutions-bitcoin/

They are also buying Ethereum don't kid yourself.

https://www.ibtimes.com/bitcoin-price-prediction-btc-ethereum-surge-2021-frank-holmes-says-3097208

[obsidian]

Energy for alt coins is very diluted vs 2017.

In 2017 there was 1700 coin options.

In 2020 there are 7,000+.

BTC is the only one at previous high. The others are way way behind. You won’t see the previous ratios again because non-BtC money is just traders looking for quick plays across 6,999 possible options.

I don't see how an increase in the number of altcoins affects only Ethereum and not Bitcoin.

I am heating my house and getting paid in Ethereum. Hopefully that will pay off in the long run. We'll see. Nothing is a sure bet. I do think the dollar is going to devalue. Expect to see minimum wage go to $15 per hour. And cars getting more expensive etc. Crypto values will increase as a result.

[obsidian]

Energy for alt coins is very diluted vs 2017.

In 2017 there was 1700 coin options.

In 2020 there are 7,000+.

BTC is the only one at previous high. The others are way way behind. You won’t see the previous ratios again because non-BtC money is just traders looking for quick plays across 6,999 possible options.

I'll check it out. Thanks for the link! Here's hoping we see 15 Ethereum to 1 Bitcoin!

[Mr Anabolic]

[obsidian]

Peter Schiff is really angry lol! He totally missed the Bitcoin market!

https://news.bitcoin.com/angry-peter-schiff-lays-into-grayscale-and-cnbc-claims-conspiracy-to-pump-btc-value/

[Mayday]

I don't see how an increase in the number of altcoins affects only Ethereum and not Bitcoin.

I am heating my house and getting paid in Ethereum. Hopefully that will pay off in the long run. We'll see. Nothing is a sure bet. I do think the dollar is going to devalue. Expect to see minimum wage go to $15 per hour. And cars getting more expensive etc. Crypto values will increase as a result.

Say there is 100B of actual money invested into the total crypto market.

In 2017 the 100B was split across 1,700 coins. In 2020 the 100B is split across 7,000 coins.

Hence it is diluted however BTC is the only coin to be at it’s previous high meanwhile alt coins are well off the previous high. The market has decided BTC is ‘something’ and per gib there is money flowing in which is long term holders.

Of course they are trying to devalue the dollar. Inflation is required for growth. However Unemployment is at global highs and you don’t have wage inflation when you have triple the unemployed than normal because there in this environment you have downward pressure on wages. Reduced hours. Reduced wage due to working from home instead of an office. Lockdowns. Restrictions of trade etc, all an argument for cheaper labour. 

it will be years to get wages resolved which will be done via basal income because they blew up the job market. Basal income solves the lack of wage inflation argument, just give everyone more money and you can create trickle up economics.

[obsidian]

Say there is 100B of actual money invested into the total crypto market.

In 2017 the 100B was split across 1,700 coins. In 2020 the 100B is split across 7,000 coins.

Hence it is diluted however BTC is the only coin to be at it’s previous high meanwhile alt coins are well off the previous high. The market has decided BTC is ‘something’ and per gib there is money flowing in which is long term holders.

Of course they are trying to devalue the dollar. Inflation is required for growth. However Unemployment is at global highs and you don’t have wage inflation when you have triple the unemployed than normal because there in this environment you have downward pressure on wages. Reduced hours. Reduced wage due to working from home instead of an office. Lockdowns. Restrictions of trade etc, all an argument for cheaper labour. 

it will be years to get wages resolved which will be done via basal income because they blew up the job market. Basal income solves the lack of wage inflation argument, just give everyone more money and you can create trickle up economics.

You make good points. I agree since 2018 Bitcoin is up more than Ethereum. In 2020 though Ethereum is up more.

The total crypto market cap is over 500 billion. Ethereum's highest market cap was 135 billion in early 2018. The market cap today is 67 billion or about 5.36 times less than Bitcoin's current market cap.

Some investors anticipate Ethereum's market cap to eventually surpass Bitcoin's though.

https://coinjournal.net/news/investor-claims-ethereum-may-surpass-market-cap-of-bitcoin/

[obsidian]

Bitcoin:

Jan 01, 2020
   
Price: $7,200.17
   
Volume: 18,565,664,997
   
Market Cap: 130,580,829,150

Dec 13, 2020
   
Price: 19,142.38
   
Volume: 25,450,468,637
   
Market Cap: 355,479,173,806

Ethereum:

Jan 01, 2020
   
Price: 130.80
   
Volume: 7,935,230,330
   
Market Cap: 14,271,059,633

Dec 13, 2020
   
Price: 589.66
   
Volume: 9,070,377,862
   
Market Cap: 67,115,726,662

As of today in 2020 Ethereum's price increased 450% and its market cap increased 470%.

As of today in 2020 Bitcoin's price increased 265% and its market cap increased 272%.

And Ethereum's price spiked higher a few weeks ago where the increase was even more dramatic at a closing price of $614.84 on 11/30/2020 or 475% increase since January.

So the 2020 trend appears to favor Ethereum.

[obsidian]

If you invested $10,000 in Ethereum in January it would now be worth around $45,000.

If you invested $10,000 in Bitcoin in January it would now be worth around $26,500.

[Mayday]

In which case you are trading crypto, not holding.

No problem with that and you proved my point which is alt coins are for traders.

It’s no secret that the big buyers purchase 80%+ BTC for their total crypto holdings. Therefore there is a consist stream of more energy being pumped into BTC than any other coin. The ratio to BTC you are wanting will increase, not decrease as a result.

Extend your timeline to include the 2017 peak and Eth is a 50% loss vs BTC which is flat. This is caused by what I said above. Sure, jump into alt coins for short term hoping to time the pump and dump. I don’t trade but if I did I’d be playing xrp, eth, BtC trying to get the pump and dumps right.

[obsidian]

In which case you are trading crypto, not holding.

No problem with that and you proved my point which is alt coins are for traders.

It’s no secret that the big buyers purchase 80%+ BTC for their total crypto holdings. Therefore there is a consist stream of more energy being pumped into BTC than any other coin. The ratio to BTC you are wanting will increase, not decrease as a result.

Extend your timeline to include the 2017 peak and Eth is a 50% loss vs BTC which is flat. This is caused by what I said above. Sure, jump into alt coins for short term hoping to time the pump and dump. I don’t trade but if I did I’d be playing xrp, eth, BtC trying to get the pump and dumps right.

I am not trading I am hodling. Been doing it since 2017 before the pump. I am going to stake my ETH and leave it for a few years.

Trading seems attractive until you lose your shirt. It's easy in hindsight to say yeah you should have bought at the lows and sold at the highs. That takes a lot of effort and balls to do and is not that easy - at least for me. I just set it and forget about it.

[gib]

Maday is right on this with his comments Obsidian. You (and also Mr A) are confusing volatility with long term trends.

In the short term, yes its true that any of the alts could outperform BTC for a period of time. That does not mean they are a good investment. Nor does it mean that you can successfully pick or predict which of the alts will outperform for such short periods. 

It often helps with long term clarity, if you take things to their ultimate logical conclusion. Think of it this way. I could invent a new crypto, and on a single transaction to a "trader" (aka a speculative sucker) make an unbelievably high 10,000% return on a single trade. That does not mean that what he bought is good long term value or that the alt I created and sold will get long term adoption.

Tens of thousands of alts have come (and gone). So much nonsense out there around all XRP, Stella, and all the rest of them.
Their market caps collectively is falling against BTC, and this will continue over time. And if you look at volume of actual trade its even higher for BTC - around 92% BTC vs 8% all alts.

For BTC to succeed as the collectively agreed upon store of value, it is inherent that BTCs imitators will fail. We see this phenomenon in nature. We see it in business. We see it in politics. We've seen it in the history of currency adoption in the analogue world.

At best ETH may be a poor mans BTC, much like silver is to gold. But even that is unlikely as the silver use case arose due to the lack of quick divisibility of gold (hence a lower-cost smaller denomination of value for day to day use). BTC is digital and infinitely divisible. So, what we will most likely see is BTC as an underlying store of base value, with various protocols (and even fiat currency) being smaller day to day denomination trading over the underlying settlement value of BTC.

[obsidian]

Maday is right on this his comments Obsidian. You (and also Mr A) are confusing volatility with long term trends. In the short term, any of the alts could outperform BTC for a period of time. That does not mean they are a good investment. It often helps, if you take things to their ultimate logical conclusion. Think of it this way. I could invent a new crypto, and on a single transaction to a "trader" (aka a speculative sucker) make an unbelievably high 10,000% return on a single trade. That does not mean that what I sold is good long term value or that the alt will get long term adoption.

Tens of thousands of alts have come and gone. So much nonsense out there around all XRP, Stella, and all the rest of them. Their market caps collectively is falling against BTC, and this will continue over time. And if you look at volume of actual trade its even higher for BTC - around 92% BTC vs 8% all alts. For BTC to succeed as the collectively agreed on store of value its inherent that imitators will fail. We see this phenomenon in nature. We see it in the history of currency adoption in the analogue world. At best BTC may be a poor mans ETC much like silver is to gold. But even that is unlikely as the silver use case arose due to the lack of quick divisibility of gold. BTC is digital and infinitely divisible. What we will most likely see is BTC as an underlying store of value, with various protocols (and even fiat currency) being smaller day to day denomination trading over the underlying settlement value of BTC.

Do what you want. You're all in Bitcoin and only Bitcoin. I don't see it that way. Time will tell. Bitcoin is dominated by China. A single province in China controls 54 percent of Bitcoin’s hash rate.

What if China decides to pull the plug? They've already shutdown electrical power for a few BTC mining facilities.

https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2019/12/11/bitcoin-cryptocurrency-mining-hash-rate-china-renewable-energy-blockchain/

https://cointelegraph.com/news/ethereum-s-market-cap-surpasses-gm-cme-and-tech-stocks-what-s-next

2020 has been an impressive year for the Ethereum network and Ether (ETH) price. In November the Eth2 deposit contract quietly launched and before the end of the month the contract had reached capacity with 524,288 Ether locked.

When Black Thursday occured on March 12, nearly every cryptocurrency had its price crushed and Ether was not spared from the carnage. After trading for as little as $86 on March 12, Ether price recovered to post a year-to-date gain of 322% and the altcoin set a 2020 high at $635.70 on Dec.1.

Despite the accolades being lauded upon Bitcoin as it broke to a new all-time high today, Ethereum price has actually outperformed BTC in 2020.

https://coinmarketcap.com/headlines/news/no-of-ethereum-nodes-surpasses-bitcoins-for-the-first-time/

Ethereum is booming and now the so-called “world’s decentralized computer” has now surpassed Bitcoin in terms of the total nodes, new data showed.

Ethereum’s node crusade

Data from Ethereum node service and technology company Bitfly showed that the Ethereum network now has over 11137 active nodes, as per a tweet. Bitcoin, on the other hand, has 10981 active nodes.

    There are now more #Ethereum nodes than #Bitcoin nodes.

    Ethereum: 11137
    Bitcoin: 10981https://t.co/E0viD19GZthttps://t.co/rnf9ZWuW5Y pic.twitter.com/lFOd6UwPYb

    — Bitfly (@etherchain_org) November 29, 2020

Nodes are essentially the backbone of any blockchain system. Within these is where the blockchain’s data is stored, and they can be run on both commercial servers or the average user computer.

[gib]

A few comments.

1. Number of nodes do not equate to value. If it were that easy, then, well you know the rest ...

2. BTC has around 100,000 nodes (your numbers are missing a decimal place). Assuming half are current, that's still 50,000 active nodes. And that security will now only increase as when institutional money comes in and BTC is spread across more players, they are surely incentivized to operate nodes also.

3. China cannot "pull the plug", unless it wishes to cut off both access to all types of electricity and to the internet at the same time (which is effectively impossible). It fact, it you recall it tried "pulling the plug" banning both BTC and mining (as Mr A proudly proclaimed at the time in his failed attempt to discredit BTC as past of his acceptance journey). Well, we can all see how effective that "ban" was now, can't we. Reality is, you cannot ban the practical application of an mathematical algorithm.

Mining gravitates to where it can be done at the lowest cost, as sure as water flows to the ocean. Once it becomes inefficient in one country, or via one type of energy source, economics dictate that a more efficient player will step in to fill the gap.

You are generally correct. A huge amount of mining currently is done in Sichuan province. I've been there and seen it. Not sure of total % now, but yes could be 50% or so, but I expect that over time we will see mining become more balanced and diversified to other parts of the world. There is no reason why, long term, it should be cheaper to mine in china than in other global location. Either way, where the mining is done is of no concern. BTC is the mathematical capture of energy and effort via a mathematical algorithm, and that algorithm is country agnostic and immutable.

[Mayday]

Do what you want. You're all in Bitcoin and only Bitcoin. I don't see it that way. Time will tell. Bitcoin is dominated by China. A single province in China controls 54 percent of Bitcoin’s hash rate.

What if China decides to pull the plug? They've already shutdown electrical power for a few BTC mining facilities.

https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2019/12/11/bitcoin-cryptocurrency-mining-hash-rate-china-renewable-energy-blockchain/

https://cointelegraph.com/news/ethereum-s-market-cap-surpasses-gm-cme-and-tech-stocks-what-s-next

2020 has been an impressive year for the Ethereum network and Ether (ETH) price. In November the Eth2 deposit contract quietly launched and before the end of the month the contract had reached capacity with 524,288 Ether locked.

When Black Thursday occured on March 12, nearly every cryptocurrency had its price crushed and Ether was not spared from the carnage. After trading for as little as $86 on March 12, Ether price recovered to post a year-to-date gain of 322% and the altcoin set a 2020 high at $635.70 on Dec.1.

Despite the accolades being lauded upon Bitcoin as it broke to a new all-time high today, Ethereum price has actually outperformed BTC in 2020.

Well go back to 2017 and I was in Eth, not BTC. I sold Eth  right around peak.

To play the numbers game I’d counter your 300%+ gains with the context that ETh had 92% of it’s value wiped out from peak vs BtC losing 68%. To date BtC has recovered back to peak and Eth only recovered to 40%. This is why I switched to BTC.

If you are holding for long term the risk you are taking on Eth is along the lines of xrp. There will be a big pullback on BtC to 16k or 13k, alt coins will get smashed during the pullback. You hold during the drop because it’s your strategy but what if Eth doesn’t recover and 5yrs later it still sits at a low?

One of the guys a few pages back bought at peak and waited 3yrs for BtC to recover so he could get out. People who bought Eth and xrp are still waiting.....