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Author Topic: Lacour-narural or not?  (Read 15315 times)
jonno gb
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« Reply #75 on: December 19, 2006, 03:41:02 AM »

Here's a pic of WNBF Pro Champ Jon Harris-a true natural and great role model.


* jonharris.jpg (54.96 KB, 295x360 - viewed 669 times.)
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Casey Butt
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« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2006, 05:56:55 AM »

The Luke, if your upper and lower body structure is "balanced", then at your height and bone structure you should have a maximum lean body mass of about 163 lbs. That would put you at about 180 lbs at ~10% bodyfat (a healthy natural bodybuilder's off-season weight). In contest shape you should be roughly the same weight as Jon Harris. But for a more accurate estimate I'll also need your ankle measurement (the difference can be several pounds if you're lower body is proportionately larger).

Your lean body mass is very close to that now, but its common for lifters to register higher lean body masses when they're heavier. I'm not sure of the reason for that, but you'd lose a significant amount getting down to 10%.
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bigbalddaddy
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« Reply #77 on: December 19, 2006, 06:22:17 AM »

Here's a pic of WNBF Pro Champ Jon Harris-a true natural and great role model.

Now this guy is in great great shape and looks natural!  Props!!!
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The Luke
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« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2006, 06:41:34 AM »

My ankle measurement is 9.75'' which is actually 0.75'' bigger than the toe-to-heel length of my foot: resulting in a cold calf measurement of 17.5'', which with training (I don't train calves) I can get up to 18.8'' cold.

The reason I doubt the FFMI is because I've been as heavy as 205 lbs at (a conservatively caliper measured) 17% bf (and measured as low as 15% with upper abs visible). That would put my LBM at 160-170 lbs... which is approx 178 lbs in contest shape.

That's Lee Labrada big!

At that bodyweight I could squat 315 lbs (ass-to-grass) for 15 and deadlift 405 lbs for 10 reps.

I firmly believe that a year of uninterupted training (something that I've never had due to financial constraints) with a good consistent diet (something else I've never had) would get me to 200 lbs @ 8-10% bf.

The only time I had the money to experiment with a proper, consistent training regimen I went from 220 lbs at 25% bf to 200 ish lbs at 17% in six weeks (before getting laid off yet again).

That's:
220 lbs bw = 165 lbs LBM + 55 lbs fat
to
200 lbs bw = 170 lbs LBM + 30 lbs fat
...in 42 days.

Am I the only natural guy who is managing these kind of results?

The Luke
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Casey Butt
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« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2006, 07:03:19 AM »

The Luke, your weight is coming from your huge lower body structure. An average ankle measurement for a man with 7.25" wrists would be about 9". Using your 9.75" ankle, the regression gives your lean body mass as a maximum of 170.8 lbs.

That means that you are at or very near the lean body mass that top natural bodybuilders carry.  A "normal" drug-free bodybuilder of your height would carry about 155 lbs lean body mass in contest shape.

However, the math isn't quite as straight-forward as it seems. The regression was done on athletes carrying single digit percentages of bodyfat. Comparing lean body mass at over 15% and lean body mass in the single digits is a completely different ball game and can be quiite misleading. For example, the last time I went down below 8% bodyfat I actually started my diet with about 162 lbs lean mass (at 16-18% b.f.). By the time I reached 7-8% I was down to 155 lbs lean body mass. And that was a properly conducted "pre-contest" diet and routine. I believe I lost the minimum amount of muscle. Most drug-free bodybuilders lose over 10 pounds lean body mass when dieting down. I've seen some lose 20 in the process of becoming super ripped. Hydration, even things such as liver glycogen, can significantly alter lean body mass readings. For that reason "off-season" lean body mass readings are considerably higher than "contest".

That's why there are no drug-free bodybuilders that are ripped and "Lee Labrada big". Smiley

Still, you are within striking distance of your theoretically maximum weight. How long have you been training?
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The Luke
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« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2006, 07:53:26 AM »

Seventeen years... (currently 29)

However I feel I'm now able to get better results than before, I wasted years gaining a pound a year doing volume training before I discovered HIT. I don't think 200 lbs at 8-10% would be impossible... reckon I could get there within a year, I also feel 18'' arms and calves are possibilities for me despite my current measurements of 16'' (arm) and 17.5'' (calf). I have a good thick torso with a genuine 44'' chest (48'' inflated and closer to 50'' with my lats flexed), and my thighs are around 27'' (remember I'm only 5'5'').

The opportunity to train and diet consistently is the problem, my career of unending menial jobs... lay-offs (and walk-offs) coupled with my hobby of traveling internationally in search of adventure often conspire to thwart my best intentions. I'm currently hoping against hope to get a job at the new Google headquarters here in Dublin.

My brother has recommended that I simply call in some favours (I know people in the Irish film industry) and begin filming one workout a month starting in the new year. A sort of Bob Chick "War of the Worlds" thingy except more along the lines of Luke Molloy "A Blobby-builders Journey".

The Luke
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Casey Butt
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« Reply #81 on: December 19, 2006, 09:50:19 AM »

Ahhh, a stumpy Dubliner. Wink I'm from Newfoundland, Canada, so I'm quite familiar with things Irish.

Really thick people are outliers on the upper end of the regression because the regression is based on lean competitive bodybuiders who tend to be very mesomorphic. But even then they seem to be a relatively fixed percentage above a more mesomorphic lifter.

Just as an example of how much lean body mass (LBM) can differ when bodybuilders drop down into the single-digit bodyfat levels for contests, here's U.K. bodybuilder John Berry's stats as he got ready for the BNBF Central Championships (I'm using these stats because they're readily available on the 'net)...

Assuming he has an average skeletal structure for his height of 5'5.5", John Berry's lean body mass should be 153.3 to 157.5 lbs, depending on his exact joint circumferences.

On 1/04/06 Berry weighed 176 lbs at 11% b.f. --> LBM = 156.6 lbs

On 2/05/06 Berry weighed 167 lbs at 9% b.f. --> LBM = 152.0 lbs

On 3/06/06 Berry weighed 158.4 lbs at 6.9% b.f. --> LBM = 147.5 lbs

On 1/07/06 Berry weighed 151.8 lbs at 6.4% b.f. --> LBM = 142.1 lbs

His anticipated weight and body fat at the contest on 30/07/06 (assuming after carb loading and proper hydration) = 147.4 - 151.8 lbs at 5-5.5% --> LBM = 140.0 - 144.2 lbs

So Berry lost over 12 lbs of LBM in going from 11% to 5-6.5% b.f. At 11% he carried the LBM that would be predicted for his structure, but in "contest" shape he carried 12 lbs less LBM. Jon Harris, however, held his LBM right at the predicted maximum when he won the 2006 WNBF World Championship. So, in the off-season, Berry seems to have the raw muscle mass to compete at the world level, but he lost it in pre-contest phase. That ability to retain muscle when dropping bodyfat is probably the difference between regional champions and world champions. Of course, his muscle loss was also probably due to either an overly restrictive diet or a poorly designed pre-contest training program, or both. But it does illustrate that many drug-free bodybuilders seem to exceed the predicted LBM maximums during the "off-season" -- they may carry that LBM when they're "fatter" but they don't carry it as the contest approaches.

Using myself as an example. Right now, at ~16% bodyfat (as of this morning), I have about 1.5 lbs more LBM than my equation predicts as my maximum (after 15 years of very serious training). I'm in the process of going down to 6-8% bodyfat. When I get there it's a practical guarantee that I won't have that much LBM, and I don't have the long muscle bellies throughout every muscle group as do the more gifted mesomorphs. The last time I dieted down I was 3-7 lbs shy of that maximum (depending on hydration, time of day, etc.).

When I first formulated these equations I was a little disappointed that I was already very close to my maximums. But, realistically, after 18 total years of training, there isn't much muscle left to be gained by this drug-free body. Now it comes down to impoving weak points and overall symmetry.

I think you should definitely make the films. And diet down to the single-digits and track your lean body mass while you're doing it ...I need more data on heavy-set endomorphs. Smiley
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« Reply #82 on: December 20, 2006, 11:43:33 AM »

Thats a big trophy.
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jonno gb
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« Reply #83 on: December 20, 2006, 12:18:56 PM »

Lol-I think Jon would need to book another seat on the plane to get it home! The shot does not really do Jon justice though-see his gallery at www.jonharris.net for some better quality shots.
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mwbbuilder
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« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2006, 01:54:55 PM »

He looks good...and he's only 31.

I only hope he doesn't grow anymore. Then he's going to out of Casey Butt's range and be considered a drug user.

That's what sucks about natural bodybuilding. If you get too good, there's alway someone there to question your credibility.

Don't grow any more, Jon! Don't do it!
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Casey Butt
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« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2006, 04:51:14 PM »

Don't grow any more, Jon! Don't do it!

Don't worry ...he won't.
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mwbbuilder
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« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2006, 12:13:50 AM »

Don't worry ...he won't.

Because it's "impossible" right?
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The Luke
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« Reply #87 on: December 21, 2006, 02:44:26 AM »

Because it's "impossible" right?

mwbuilder.... contribute to this thread or desist from posting in this thread.

You've been warned.


The Luke
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mwbbuilder
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« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2006, 10:29:58 AM »

Challenging a statement is not contributing? He said that natural BB won't grow. Shouldn't that be questioned? Doesn't that provide value?
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Casey Butt
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« Reply #89 on: December 21, 2006, 11:35:08 AM »

He said that natural BB won't grow.

I said no such thing.
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The Luke
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« Reply #90 on: December 21, 2006, 11:59:58 AM »

Challenging a statement is not contributing? He said that natural BB won't grow. Shouldn't that be questioned? Doesn't that provide value?


...we already have an asshole posting nothing but sarcasm on this site. Casey has made his point explicitly and articulately, please try doing the same.

The Luke
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mwbbuilder
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« Reply #91 on: December 21, 2006, 03:42:30 PM »

Don't worry ...he won't.

Huh?
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jonno gb
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« Reply #92 on: December 22, 2006, 04:54:05 AM »

I would not be suprised if Jon competes a few pounds heavier and in similar or better condition next year as it was very close for the overall between him and Ben Tennison so Jon will be looking to widen the gap.I think it is quite possible to make muscular gains at age 30+ and,if it wasn't,would there be much point in training just to maintain.I will let you know for sure next year though Grin
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mwbbuilder
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« Reply #93 on: December 22, 2006, 06:37:28 AM »

I would not be suprised if Jon competes a few pounds heavier and in similar or better condition next year as it was very close for the overall between him and Ben Tennison so Jon will be looking to widen the gap.I think it is quite possible to make muscular gains at age 30+ and,if it wasn't,would there be much point in training just to maintain.I will let you know for sure next year though Grin


Of course he will...and good for him!

The only problem with a natural bodybuilder who gets "too good" is that he becomes "unbelieveable" to others.

Casey Butt said he was within a certain statistical range that "proved" his natural status. What if grows beyond those statisitics and averages? Casey stated that will not grow any more from where he is.

This is a big planet. Your boy looks awesome but there are many more genetically gifted BBs than him
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Casey Butt
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« Reply #94 on: December 22, 2006, 08:16:48 AM »

After 18 years of training, and several years at the top of the natural bodybuilding world, it's very unlikely that Jon's going to make significant further lean body mass gains. Depending on the exact size of Jon's skeletal structure, he may have, at most, a few pounds left in him. If Jon makes significant improvements now it will have to be in the form of perfecting his physique and addressing weaknesses (not that he appears to have any). Those improvements might make a difference visually, but they won't register much on the weight scale. Time will verify this. It's not his age that limits him, it's how close he is to his maximum potential. Jon is already there ...and it shows. Now it's about the fractions of a percent that separate the champion from the runner-up.
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Casey Butt
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« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2006, 12:45:13 PM »

I only started posting on this site recently ...as you can see, I stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest. Smiley

You sent me an email about a week or two ago right?? God, I'm sorry about that ...I was in the middle of giving an exam when I read that email (now you know what the prof does when he leaves the exam room Wink) and forgot about it after. I meant to get back to you, but it got "lost" in the inbox after that.

I just didn't have the time to maintain the site anymore ...that and I underestimated the influence that it was having. Even 3 or 4 years later I still get email every week or so about that site (or Hardgainer or something).

I tell you something weird ...at least half of the people who contact me are Engineers!
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mwbbuilder
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« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2006, 01:23:44 PM »

After 18 years of training, and several years at the top of the natural bodybuilding world, it's very unlikely that Jon's going to make significant further lean body mass gains. Depending on the exact size of Jon's skeletal structure, he may have, at most, a few pounds left in him. If Jon makes significant improvements now it will have to be in the form of perfecting his physique and addressing weaknesses (not that he appears to have any). Those improvements might make a difference visually, but they won't register much on the weight scale. Time will verify this. It's not his age that limits him, it's how close he is to his maximum potential. Jon is already there ...and it shows. Now it's about the fractions of a percent that separate the champion from the runner-up.


Who are the top natual bodybuilders that you've worked with? Names please.
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BigDave81
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« Reply #97 on: February 15, 2007, 10:44:06 PM »

I have a friend who is an all time natural who has competed in the universe many times, doesn't even take in whey, and he told me that Lacour is known to have taken Growth. Don't know if it's true, hie lifts are pretty weak.
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mwbbuilder
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« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2007, 05:30:03 PM »

I wish I was that weak

http://skiplacour.com/lacour_dvd_pom.wmv
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