Great article on atheism.

[Necrosis]

It's MY option to be separated from " God " if I so choose. Free will right? Oh NO it's not " free will " It's believe in me or burn forever.  That's an amoral teaching and anyone who adheres to it is amoral. It's disgusting & repugnant.

of course it is. Would you ever say to your daughter obey me or you will burn forever, it's her choice of course. She just has to choose in the manner which pleases him, otherwise, eternal torture.

Eternal anything as a punishment for finite acts is completely amoral.

[Man of Steel]

It's MY option to be separated from " God " if I so choose. Free will right? Oh NO it's not " free will " It's believe in me or burn forever.   That's an amoral teaching and anyone who adheres to it is amoral. It's disgusting & repugnant.

Demons believe in God.  Many, many, many evil people believe in God.  

You're conveniently leaving out your choice to defy God completely....to break his law and corrupt his creation.  You're removing all accountability for your actions, removing your participation and responsibility from the situation and hastily generalizing "believe in me or burn forever".  You put the onus on God and remove yourself.   You've left out the impact of your choices....your sin....your offenses against God.  

If you're going to enter the Christian worldview then you need to acknowledge the entirety of it, not pick those pieces that form your argument and chuck the rest.  

You've also conveniently left out the fact that despite your desire to lash out against God that he's allowed you to exist in this world and enjoy all it has to offer.   You have free reign to do whatever you please in this life and call God "disgusting and repugnant" all day long if you desire.  Still, if you're entering the Christian worldview then make sure you include some key facets like God's law, your defiance of that and the fact you spit in his face by doing so despite all the goodness provided to you in this life.  

When you exit this life you enter God's eternity and are subject to his terms and will then face his divine justice as a result of your actions.  Yet, all he wants is fellowship with you both now and forever and to continue to provide for you and allow you to delight in him and his divine qualities.  He's even given his son Jesus Christ to pay for all your mistakes and make good on all your sin and has given you the opportunity for righteousness and life and mercy and grace and love and peace.   You ignore all of that and casually redefine it as "believe or burn".  

I humbly ask you to rethink your position and consider every facet.  Don't simply cobble together facets of scripture for the sake of a "damning post" that isn't correct.

[Man of Steel]

of course it is. Would you ever say to your daughter obey me or you will burn forever, it's her choice of course. She just has to choose in the manner which pleases him, otherwise, eternal torture.

Eternal anything as a punishment for finite acts is completely amoral.

Who is your offense against?

If you commit an offense against me you may or may not spend time in jail.
If you commit an offense against a police officer you'll definitely spend some time in a jail.
If you commit an offense against the President of the US you'll probably spend your life in jail or most of it in jail.
If you commit an offense against a dictator you'll probably lose your life.
If you commit an offense against the timeless, infinite God and defy his timelines, infinite law you'll pay a timeless, infinite price.

The penalty paid as you climb the ladder of offenses increases the punishment.   You break the ultimate law and you pay the ultimate price.  

Fortunately we have Jesus Christ who paid the price for all our offenses against God.  We can turn to Christ, be made righteous and seek him for the remainder of our days being lead down a path that seeks to sin no more.   

[NarcissisticDeity]

Demons believe in God.  Many, many, many evil people believe in God.  

You're conveniently leaving out your choice to defy God completely....to break his law and corrupt his creation.  You're removing all accountability for your actions, removing your participation and responsibility from the situation and hastily generalizing "believe in me or burn forever".  You put the onus on God and remove yourself.   You've left out the impact of your choices....your sin....your offenses against God.  

If you're going to enter the Christian worldview then you need to acknowledge the entirety of it, not pick those pieces that form your argument and chuck the rest.  

You've also conveniently left out the fact that despite your desire to lash out against God that he's allowed you to exist in this world and enjoy all it has to offer.   You have free reign to do whatever you please in this life and call God "disgusting and repugnant" all day long if you desire.  Still, if you're entering the Christian worldview then make sure you include some key facets like God's law, your defiance of that and the fact you spit in his face by doing so despite all the goodness provided to you in this life.  

When you exit this life you enter God's eternity and are subject to his terms.  Yet all he wants is fellowship with you both now and forever and to continue to provide for you and allow you to delight in him and his divine qualities.  He's even given his son Jesus Christ to pay for all your mistakes and make good on all your sin and has given you the opportunity for righteousness and life and mercy and grace and love and peace.   You ignore all of that and casually redefine it as "believe or burn".  

I humbly ask you to rethink your position and consider every facet.  Don't simply cobble together facets of scripture for the sake of a "damning post" that isn't correct.

Demons believe in God.  Many, many, many evil people believe in God.  

And? 

You're conveniently leaving out your choice to defy God completely....to break his law and corrupt his creation.  You're removing all accountability for your actions, removing your participation and responsibility from the situation and hastily generalizing "believe in me or burn forever".  You put the onus on God and remove yourself.   You've left out the impact of your choices....your sin....your offenses against God.  

There is NO choice. The excuse God gave you free will is a LIE plain & simple. It's either believe or burn forever that's NOT a choice there is nothing free about exercising my will. God isn't saying " Hey if you want to believe in me cool and if not that's cool too " He's saying believe in me or I will fucking burn you forever and ever. That's an amoral proposition.

And if I have free will to decide to believe in God why does it come with such a heavy consequence? That's NOT an exercise of free will. It's do as I say or else. Let's not pretend I have a choice in the matter. Your God is amoral and I would rather burn in hell then worship him and his amoral teachings.

If you're going to enter the Christian worldview then you need to acknowledge the entirety of it, not pick those pieces that form your argument and chuck the rest.  

I was brainwashed into the Christian wold view by my Mother. I decided the story is amoral and the existence of God described in the bible is a laughable myth. And it's ironic a Christian talking about cherry picking lol

When you exit this life you enter God's eternity and are subject to his terms.  Yet all he wants is fellowship with you both now and forever and to continue to provide for you and allow you to delight in him and his divine qualities.  He's even given his son Jesus Christ to pay for all your mistakes and make good on all your sin and has given you the opportunity for righteousness and life and mercy and grace and love and peace.   You ignore all of that and casually redefine it as "believe or burn".  

I don't believe in vicarious redemption that's amoral as well. I don't want to join God in the afterlife and if I'm punished by eternal damnation then that proves he wasn't worthy to be followed and praised.

I humbly ask you to rethink your position and consider every facet.  Don't simply cobble together facets of scripture for the sake of a "damning post" that isn't correct

My position is the best one that I came to on my own after taking everything into consideration. You or God won't persuade me otherwise , when I die I have NO fear of Hell or Heaven. I treat people how I want to be treated and have lived a more moral life than 90% of the believers I know.

[Agnostic007]

And? 

There is NO choice. The excuse God gave you free will is a LIE plain & simple. It's either believe or burn forever that's NOT a choice there is nothing free about exercising my will. God isn't saying " Hey if you want to believe in me cool and if not that's cool too " He's saying believe in me or I will fucking burn you forever and ever. That's an amoral proposition.

And if I have free will to decide to believe in God why does it come with such a heavy consequence? That's NOT an exercise of free will. It's do as I say or else. Let's not pretend I have a choice in the matter. Your God is amoral and I would rather burn in hell then worship him and his amoral teachings.

I was brainwashed into the Christian wold view by my Mother. I decided the story is amoral and the existence of God described in the bible is a laughable myth. And it's ironic a Christian talking about cherry picking lol

I don't believe in vicarious redemption that's amoral as well. I don't want to join God in the afterlife and if I'm punished by eternal damnation then that proves he wasn't worthy to be followed and praised.

My position is the best one that I came to on my own after taking everything into consideration. You or God won't persuade me otherwise , when I die I have NO fear of Hell or Heaven. I treat people how I want to be treated and have lived a more moral life than 90% of the believers I know.

I don't know how a reasonable adult can read the concept above about the Christian god and still believe, or if they believe.. want to hang around with him for eternity

[Necrosis]

Who is your offense against?

If you commit an offense against me you may or may not spend time in jail.
If you commit an offense against a police officer you'll definitely spend some time in a jail.
If you commit an offense against the President of the US you'll probably spend your life in jail or most of it in jail.
If you commit an offense against a dictator you'll probably lose your life.
If you commit an offense against the timeless, infinite God and defy his timelines, infinite law you'll pay a timeless, infinite price.

The penalty paid as you climb the ladder of offenses increases the punishment.   You break the ultimate law and you pay the ultimate price.  

Fortunately we have Jesus Christ who paid the price for all our offenses against God.  We can turn to Christ, be made righteous and seek him for the remainder of our days being lead down a path that seeks to sin no more.   

Ok, in each of your examples I can verify the person I offended, you are using real world examples. You cannot use real world concrete examples and then jump into the supernatural as if it's the same thing. So murder I go to jail for life, wearing shirts of two different fabrics, eternal damnation.

I bet hell is full of people with down syndrome. what you are saying makes no sense. A eternal punishment for finite offences is absurd. If anyone should be in hell is god, he drowned the whole world, animals, insects, plants, everything.......

God appears to be a politician.

[Agnostic007]

God created the world with the ability to see the future. Placed a Tree in a garden that had knowledge of good and evil and told Adam and Eve not to eat it. They eat it much to his surprise and we are damned for eternity. Then Adam and Eve procreate to populate the earth. God is unhappy with how the inhabitants are acting and floods the earth killing all but 8 and 2 of all the animals of the world except the unicorns who were busy playing. Again the earth is repopulated but again we disappoint god. He then sends himself down in the form of Jesus "his son" but it's really him.. who acts like a sacrificial animal and is killed to pay the debt we owe for being born, because Adam ate the fruit. However if we don't accept this free gift.. we have to spend an eternity in hell. But he loves us... and sometimes, he answers your prayers if he wants to.....

Yeah.. that's something I can sink my teeth into   

[Necrosis]

God created the world with the ability to see the future. Placed a Tree in a garden that had knowledge of good and evil and told Adam and Eve not to eat it. They eat it much to his surprise and we are damned for eternity. Then Adam and Eve procreate to populate the earth. God is unhappy with how the inhabitants are acting and floods the earth killing all but 8 and 2 of all the animals of the world except the unicorns who were busy playing. Again the earth is repopulated but again we disappoint god. He then sends himself down in the form of Jesus "his son" but it's really him.. who acts like a sacrificial animal and is killed to pay the debt we owe for being born, because Adam ate the fruit. However if we don't accept this free gift.. we have to spend an eternity in hell. But he loves us... and sometimes, he answers your prayers if he wants to.....

Yeah.. that's something I can sink my teeth into   

it makes perfect sense!

what about the 100 thousand years where people lived without knowledge of adam and eve! Like in China.

[BigRo]

These threads are always so black and white with the 2 conventional view points debating.

[The Ugly]

These threads are always so black and white with the 2 conventional view points debating.

Sure, but your grayish take is equally condemned by scripture. Rules is rules.

[The Scott]

Can you explain physics to a newborn and have it understand it all?  What about gene splicing?  What about the weather?

If God exists He is so far removed from us that it might not even be fair to compare us as newborns to Him (as I have just done above).

How then would a rational being explain such things as creation and the like to a relative retard?  Vis a vie metaphorically.  It makes sense to me but then I am a rational being myself. 

When I choose to be.  The aforementioned supposition is how I look at creation and the like.  Me.  Not any here, just me.

I cannot fault the life of the Christ nor would I want to because it is worthy of admiration and imitation, if you will.  And only if you choose to.

Men such as Joseph Smith or that other stalwart swine Mohammed are without merit in any sense of the word.  So then, if you choose to not follow any man perhaps you might wish to follow the finest example of what it means to be a good man.  In the truest meaning of the word, "good".  Jesus of Nazareth.

I know many good people that are Atheists who exemplify Christ like mannerisms far more than do many so called followers of the Christ.  That they choose not to believe in the Christ is their choice, that they behave in a manner that would be pleasing to Him is their honor.

If any here have issue with my words I have no problem with that, but unless you wish to make yourself an idiot, kindly do so in a manner befitting that of my late friend Reeves.  If not, FTN. 

If you have no idea about what I am saying, I cannot help you save to suggest you look it up here.  The man was superb in so many ways, not the least of which was disagreeing with my faith with  class.  Something sorely missing from more than a few here.  Not all, mind you and those I am referring to as having that element of class should know who they are.   Good people.

To those that think themselves "clever" in their childish attempts at dissecting the life of Jesus of Nazareth as though they were their tables "lead" in 9th grade biology and their dead cat were named "Jesus", I say this -  I will not force you to wear the same shoes as I do nor any shoe for that matter.  In like fashion don't try to feed me your pedestrian offal.

Anyone can change, it's change for the better than matters.  Manners included.  Thank you for tolerating my little tirade of a treatise. Again.  

[SF1900]

Can you explain physics to a newborn and have it understand it all?  What about gene splicing?  What about the weather?

If God exists He is so far removed from us that it might not even be fair to compare us as newborns to Him (as I have just done above).

How then would a rational being explain such things as creation and the like to a relative retard?  Vis a vie metaphorically.  It makes sense to me but then I am a rational being myself. 

When I choose to be.  The aforementioned supposition is how I look at creation and the like.  Me.  Not any here, just me.

I cannot fault the life of the Christ nor would I want to because it is worthy of admiration and imitation, if you will.  And only if you choose to.

Men such as Joseph Smith or that other stalwart swine Mohammed are without merit in any sense of the word.  So then, if you choose to not follow any man perhaps you might wish to follow the finest example of what it means to be a good man.  In the truest meaning of the word, "good".  Jesus of Nazareth.

I know many good people that are Atheists who exemplify Christ like mannerisms far more than do many so called followers of the Christ.  That they choose not to believe in the Christ is their choice, that they behave in a manner that would be pleasing to Him is their honor.

If any here have issue with my words I have no problem with that, but unless you wish to make yourself an idiot, kindly do so in a manner befitting that of my late friend Reeves.  If not, FTN. 

If you have no idea about what I am saying, I cannot help you save to suggest you look it up here.  The man was superb in so many ways, not the least of which was disagreeing with my faith with  class.  Something sorely missing from more than a few here.  Not all, mind you and those I am referring to as having that element of class should know who they are.   Good people.

To those that think themselves "clever" in their childish attempts at dissecting the life of Jesus of Nazareth as though they were their tables "lead" in 9th grade biology and their dead cat were named "Jesus", I say this -  I will not force you to wear the same shoes as I do nor any shoe for that matter.  In like fashion don't try to feed me your pedestrian offal.

Anyone can change, it's change for the better than matters.  Manners included.  Thank you for tolerating my little tirade of a treatise. Again.  

I suspect that those who "take the piss" here are doing it just because its getbig. All-in-all, most of the people here lead ordinary, good lives. On average, people are all not that different from each other in terms of what we seek out of life. There are just multiple pathways to getting there. But it all leads us down the same path to the ultimate goal that we all seek -- happiness.

[Necrosis]

Can you explain physics to a newborn and have it understand it all?  What about gene splicing?  What about the weather?

So your argument is that while the universe behaves in a measured, rational manner, it began with magic. So before anything existed a hypercomplex being did, does this make sense? when has anything ever started off at it's most complex? if the complexity of the universe begs for a creator then surely an even more complex being than the universe demands one?

If God exists He is so far removed from us that it might not even be fair to compare us as newborns to Him (as I have just done above).

If god exists, he is not in control, but a part of this.

How then would a rational being explain such things as creation and the like to a relative retard?  Vis a vie metaphorically.  It makes sense to me but then I am a rational being myself. 
Give me a good metaphor for god and universe.

When I choose to be.  The aforementioned supposition is how I look at creation and the like.  Me.  Not any here, just me.

I cannot fault the life of the Christ nor would I want to because it is worthy of admiration and imitation, if you will.  And only if you choose to.

Men such as Joseph Smith or that other stalwart swine Mohammed are without merit in any sense of the word.  So then, if you choose to not follow any man perhaps you might wish to follow the finest example of what it means to be a good man.  In the truest meaning of the word, "good".  Jesus of Nazareth.

I know many good people that are Atheists who exemplify Christ like mannerisms far more than do many so called followers of the Christ.  That they choose not to believe in the Christ is their choice, that they behave in a manner that would be pleasing to Him is their honor.

If any here have issue with my words I have no problem with that, but unless you wish to make yourself an idiot, kindly do so in a manner befitting that of my late friend Reeves.  If not, FTN. 

If you have no idea about what I am saying, I cannot help you save to suggest you look it up here.  The man was superb in so many ways, not the least of which was disagreeing with my faith with  class.  Something sorely missing from more than a few here.  Not all, mind you and those I am referring to as having that element of class should know who they are.   Good people.

we are debating on a internet forum. I wouldn't take it this seriously. Disagreeing with you or attacking your words should not be seen as rude etc.

To those that think themselves "clever" in their childish attempts at dissecting the life of Jesus of Nazareth as though they were their tables "lead" in 9th grade biology and their dead cat were named "Jesus", I say this -  I will not force you to wear the same shoes as I do nor any shoe for that matter.  In like fashion don't try to feed me your pedestrian offal.

He may have been a great man, has no bearing on the veracity of the claims in the bible.

Anyone can change, it's change for the better than matters.  Manners included.  Thank you for tolerating my little tirade of a treatise. Again.  

[_aj_]

Uncle Junior: proof God exists and has a sense of humor.

[SF1900]

Uncle Junior: proof God exists and has a sense of humor.

Uncle Junior is proof that God, is in fact, infallible. 

[The Abdominal Snoman]

How many atheists on their deathbed who as their just about to die have some sort of conversation with a God or higher power that may or may not be there? I'd imagine the percentage is huge. And if they lived their whole life as an atheist, but were thinking of some sort of God as they were about to go, i'd say they really weren't an atheists after all, and just a poser or phony of sorts...I've read that many Doctors who were atheists on their deathbed weren't atheists after all when shit got real

[Man of Steel]

Ok, in each of your examples I can verify the person I offended, you are using real world examples. You cannot use real world concrete examples and then jump into the supernatural as if it's the same thing. So murder I go to jail for life, wearing shirts of two different fabrics, eternal damnation.

I bet hell is full of people with down syndrome. what you are saying makes no sense. A eternal punishment for finite offences is absurd. If anyone should be in hell is god, he drowned the whole world, animals, insects, plants, everything.......

God appears to be a politician.

Remember, you're arguing from the Christian worldview so don't deflect the argument (which you fully grasp) by saying God is supernatural so the example is invalidated.....that's a copout.  Within the Christian worldview we grant the existence of God and the supernatural can be offended just like the natural, but the penalty for offense is different and greater if the supernatural is offended.  You willfully break an infinite law of an infinite God and you receive an infinite offense unless you trust in Jesus Christ.

You're also referencing old covenant, levitical laws for the Israelites...fabric mixing, eating of clean animals, hygiene practices, animal sacrifice for sin atonement, tithing practices, etc....not applicable today.

God passed judgment upon the entire population of evil, reprobate, repugnant human beings who committed all sorts of deviant, twisted acts....they corrupted the whole of the earth.  Insect, plants, rocks, animals, etc....were not punished but were all corrupted because of the rampant sin.  God cleansed the planet of the decay of sin (brought about by humanity) aside from the single righteous family and the creatures he sent to them for care.    Why is it you are in favor of the reprobate and not the righteous?

Why do you assume hell is filled with folks with mental handicaps like down syndrome?  Those folks with mental disabilities are unable to make an intelligent, developed, informed choice about Christ and are as innocent as children who also cannot comprehend sin, salvation, etc....  Now certainly some mentally handicapped are aware and capable enough to acknowledge the existence of God via nature and conscience; therefore, in scripture we note that God will judge these folks that don't understand or know Christ on the basis of their response to God's revelation to them via nature and their conscience.  Babies and children that pass early on in life are innocents and therefore incapable of understanding an offense against God or Christ's salvation.  These children will reside with God in his eternity upon their passing as they have essentially committed no sin.  So often we disregard the perfect justice of God and warp it into an absolute that makes our argument "reasonable".....often stepping out of the Christian worldview to do so.

[Man of Steel]

And? 

There is NO choice. The excuse God gave you free will is a LIE plain & simple. It's either believe or burn forever that's NOT a choice there is nothing free about exercising my will. God isn't saying " Hey if you want to believe in me cool and if not that's cool too " He's saying believe in me or I will fucking burn you forever and ever. That's an amoral proposition.

And if I have free will to decide to believe in God why does it come with such a heavy consequence? That's NOT an exercise of free will. It's do as I say or else. Let's not pretend I have a choice in the matter. Your God is amoral and I would rather burn in hell then worship him and his amoral teachings.

I was brainwashed into the Christian wold view by my Mother. I decided the story is amoral and the existence of God described in the bible is a laughable myth. And it's ironic a Christian talking about cherry picking lol

I don't believe in vicarious redemption that's amoral as well. I don't want to join God in the afterlife and if I'm punished by eternal damnation then that proves he wasn't worthy to be followed and praised.

My position is the best one that I came to on my own after taking everything into consideration. You or God won't persuade me otherwise , when I die I have NO fear of Hell or Heaven. I treat people how I want to be treated and have lived a more moral life than 90% of the believers I know.

I'll reply when I have more time.

[_bruce_]

Atheist Pride Multiverse wide 

[Man of Steel]

I suspect that those who "take the piss" here are doing it just because its getbig. All-in-all, most of the people here lead ordinary, good lives. On average, people are all not that different from each other in terms of what we seek out of life. There are just multiple pathways to getting there. But it all leads us down the same path to the ultimate goal that we all seek -- happiness.

I'm impressed, this is a very reasonable, sincere answer!  

[The Scott]

I'm impressed, this is a very reasonable, sincere answer!  

It is due to his being a reasonable, sincere man and I treat him as such, i.e., a friend.
Be well, my friend.

[BigRo]

it is clear humans seek happiness, is that the pinnacle of human potential though?

[The Scott]

Quote from: The Scott on Today at 11:45:08 AM

Can you explain physics to a newborn and have it understand it all?  What about gene splicing?  What about the weather?

So your argument is that while the universe behaves in a measured, rational manner, it began with magic. So before anything existed a hypercomplex being did, does this make sense? when has anything ever started off at it's most complex? if the complexity of the universe begs for a creator then surely an even more complex being than the universe demands one?

If God exists He is so far removed from us that it might not even be fair to compare us as newborns to Him (as I have just done above).

If god exists, he is not in control, but a part of this.

How then would a rational being explain such things as creation and the like to a relative retard?  Vis a vie metaphorically.  It makes sense to me but then I am a rational being myself. 
Give me a good metaphor for god and universe.

When I choose to be.  The aforementioned supposition is how I look at creation and the like.  Me.  Not any here, just me.

I cannot fault the life of the Christ nor would I want to because it is worthy of admiration and imitation, if you will.  And only if you choose to.

Men such as Joseph Smith or that other stalwart swine Mohammed are without merit in any sense of the word.  So then, if you choose to not follow any man perhaps you might wish to follow the finest example of what it means to be a good man.  In the truest meaning of the word, "good".  Jesus of Nazareth.

I know many good people that are Atheists who exemplify Christ like mannerisms far more than do many so called followers of the Christ.  That they choose not to believe in the Christ is their choice, that they behave in a manner that would be pleasing to Him is their honor.

If any here have issue with my words I have no problem with that, but unless you wish to make yourself an idiot, kindly do so in a manner befitting that of my late friend Reeves.  If not, FTN. 

If you have no idea about what I am saying, I cannot help you save to suggest you look it up here.  The man was superb in so many ways, not the least of which was disagreeing with my faith with  class.  Something sorely missing from more than a few here.  Not all, mind you and those I am referring to as having that element of class should know who they are.   Good people.

we are debating on a internet forum. I wouldn't take it this seriously. Disagreeing with you or attacking your words should not be seen as rude etc.

To those that think themselves "clever" in their childish attempts at dissecting the life of Jesus of Nazareth as though they were their tables "lead" in 9th grade biology and their dead cat were named "Jesus", I say this -  I will not force you to wear the same shoes as I do nor any shoe for that matter.  In like fashion don't try to feed me your pedestrian offal.

He may have been a great man, has no bearing on the veracity of the claims in the bible.

Anyone can change, it's change for the better than matters.  Manners included.  Thank you for tolerating my little tirade of a treatise. Again.   Grin

Your conjecture that I imply "magic" is unfounded especially in light of the fact that I have never stated such.  I have,  however, said that I simply do not know how all this came to pass.  What passes for science with regard to the beginning of all that we know is naught but an educated guess.  I can live with both sides of this coin.  Apparently (and perhaps I am wrong) you cannot.


If God exists (and I have repeatedly said as much, then He is in far more charge than either you or I but to what extent remains to be seen.  Like everything else.  I can live with that but again, perhaps you cannot.


I do not debate.  I simply state that which I hold true and leave it at that.  Outside my utter disdain for Islam and false ministers of all denominations and the BS of such as Wiggs and certain others (on a variety of subjects) I am not rude.  It is my personal experience that like their faith based counterparts, some Atheists are just plain rude.  I do live with this but point it out as it is a part of who and what I am. 

Jesus of Nazareth was and is a great man.  And more.  But as you say it has no bearing on the veracity of the Word.  Or it does.  There are two sides to every coin and a 50-50 chance every time one flips it. 

In each lifetime that one coin is flipped countless times. 

[che]

Religious people are just as good as playing the "victim" card these days. Back in the day they did not have to, because they "ruled" over everything. Their word was authority. Not so much any more. Now they are starting to get a feel for what its like to be criticized. They do not like this. Thus, as stated before, they play the victim card like everyone else.

Hope this helps.

Haha , SF1900  destroying MOS ,  just  like I predicted .

[SF1900]

Haha , SF1900  destroying MOS ,  just  like I predicted .

Nice trolling, che.

I recognize that every group plays the victim card. No one has a monopoly on being a victim. Every group has faced disadvantages at times. Some real, some not so real.