Sorry for long reply, but I have the majority of responses I've written previously at my fingertips so I can often copy and paste.
The proposition states believe or burn. If you don't not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord & Savior you're doomed to eternal damnation. I " choose " not to believe in deities so by default I'm going to be punished for it. I'm choosing to decide there is NOT sufficient evidence for any deities and will no follow what I consider to be a false doctrine and live a lie not even for Pascal's wager , just in case there is.
Again, you’ve eliminated sin entirely from the discussion. You’ve removed any personal accountability or responsibility for breaking God’s law. In one breathe you simply say there is no God and another you acknowledge the existence of God but call him amoral. You define the proposition as “believe or burn”, but that isn’t correct. The reality is that Jesus Christ came as the incarnate son of God here on earth and live and died as a blameless, sinless man so that your sins could be paid for. If folks never broke God’s law there would be no need for Christ’s act on Calvary’s cross. You take the convenient atheist position of “believe or burn” that ignores sin (and somehow absolves you of sin at the same time) and then twist the situation into a heinous, evil dictatorial stance by God. “Believe and worship me or burn in hell!! MUAH-HAH-HAH!!!” [cue thunder, lightning, roaring seas, earthquakes and expressions of terror]. This is an invention, not the Christian worldview.
The only idea that is absolutely correct concerning your absolute statement of “NOT sufficient evidence” is that it is absolutely subjective. You are dialoguing with evidence for God right now. The reality of who he is is being shared with you currently. It isn’t up to me to convince you and we can speak about logic, archeological findings, history of Jesus, scripture, personal revelations of God, etc….. In the end it’s up to you to determine if you want to know the reality of God in your life. When you approach God you come to him according to his terms as laid out in scripture. I can certainly assist with that, but I can only lead a horse to water.
God’s law and knowledge of him is already imprinted upon you, but folks forcibly suppress that and often opt to endlessly argue about why they are not going to seek him on his terms in scripture….a lifetime of excuses is often sought to avoid minutes of humble, private personal prayer. Instead folks spend a lifetime suppressing and attempting to convince themselves that God isn’t real or that he's unjust (in our case "amoral"). It’s only about God that people do such things. Very few people spend lifetimes passionately arguing about things that are truly “fairytales and myths”. Those things are dismissed almost instantly, but not God. No, there’s an endless pursuit to either live for God or deny God and despite existing in either camp the pursuit never ends. Many, many folks that deny God have devoted their lives to studying his word, debating his word, debating his church, writing books about him and all because “there is no God”. I find that very interesting.
I'm saying your God is amoral if he would punish his creations for the faults he designed them with. I'm saying a God who demands to be worshiped or else be punished is an amoral God and NOT worthy or praise or worship. A entity with the abilities to " create " an entire Universe/Multiverse and all life within would be so intelligent and sublime he would in no way shape or form demand to be worshiped or praised it's beneath such intelligence and this proves your God is a story based off of fallible men projecting their frail human egos unto their " God "
No, God demands that in order to exist with him that you must forgo of your sin and be brought into righteousness. God is worthy of worship and those that desire for God has worship and praise often pouring out of them.....I do. What appears designed into each of is a desire to worship and praise. Yes, we have a proclivity for sin in us, but not a preprogrammed set of sins to commit….simply not the case.
What is worship though?
Simply put, God is the essence of righteousness….the bar…..the creator…..the standard…..the law. He is the greatest possible being there is, was and ever will be.
God created us in his divine image (a generous act on his part) and defined for us two important roles within his creation: one, a kingly role in which we govern over his creation; two, a priest type role in which we walk in faithful service with God and surrender to his will for our lives so that others may draw close to him as well. The goodness of God flows to his creation and thereby becomes an extension of his church…..we are equipped with his attributes.
To worship God means to be included in his existence and to acknowledge his position in the order of all things and to also understand our role within his creation. We are creatures that literally overflow with worship for things we love and admire and cherish most……worship and praise pours out of us. God doesn’t need our worship though….his existence is not contingent upon it, but he created us so that we may enter into fellowship with him and engage in praise in worship for which is absolutely worthy. As part of the created order we give praise for those things we value the most in life. Believers enjoy the very presence of God and he enjoys ours as well….it’s a relationship. Given his exalted status when we are given his approval it elicits our praise and worship….we almost can’t help it at times LOL.
As C.S. Lewis notes in reference to praise and worship:
“But the most obvious fact about praise – whether of God or anything – strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honour. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless . . . shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it. The world rings with praise – lovers praising their mistresses [Romeo praising Juliet and vice versa], readers their favourite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favourite game – praise of weather, wines, dishes, actors, motors, horses, colleges, countries, historical personages, children, flowers, mountains, rare stamps, rare beetles, even sometimes politicians or scholars. . . . Except where intolerably adverse circumstances interfere, praise almost seems to be inner health made audible. . . . I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise whatever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: 'Isn't she lovely? Wasn't it glorious? Don't you think that magnificent?' The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value.”
Further the idea of sin built into for which we’re punished regardless is fallacious. Our proof is children.
When I read about King David’s child with Bathsheba passing away and David suggesting that as a believer he would he see his child again in God’s kingdom it affirmed for me the innocence of children and others with disabilities that prevent them from making an honest choice about sin and Christ in their lives. They don’t need salvation because being saved by grace through faith in Christ means we are saved from the wrath/judgment of God. The innocents need not fear God’s wrath for they are without blame or need for judgment.
“Jesus called a little child to him and put the child among them. Then he said, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.’”
Christ also indicated how severely those that cause the children (the little ones) to fall into sin would be judged. The children are lead into sin and out of innocence.
As believers in Christ we are saved by grace through faith and thereby justified and deemed righteous….like the innocents who are inherently righteous we become like the them through Christ. Anyone who comes to God and desires forgivenessness and righteousness will be deemed as such.
Easy , as stated the consequence for choosing not to believe. It's like like I said " Hey you want to believe cool , and if not that's cool too. " It's analogous to the Mafia who says " You have a nice store here , shame if anything would happen to it , you pay us and we'll make sure nothing happens to it. " It's do as I say or else. This isn't a choice. God says believe in me or else I will severely punish you. This amoral.
Above I illustrated your depiction of God as an evil dictator and here you reference him as some Godfather, Al Capone, Jon Gotti, Mafioso type…..not the case….see above.
There is absolutely zero proof of hell or heaven, however this is how religion describes it. " A lake of fire " where you will apparently be given an indestructible so you can feel all of the torment and pain for eternity " But God loves you "
There’s proof of everything and it resides in the Holy Spirit of God. Those that have come into humble, surrender before God and accept what Christ did for them on Calvary’s cross and proclaim him as savior and Lord have within them the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit….it’s undeniable for believers. That presence alone confirms the whole of scripture, but you only experience the revelation of God in two ways: abiding by God’s terms in scripture or a special revelation of God’s choosing (rare).
There’s all sorts of proof for the bible and Jesus Christ, but none of it matters if you remain in a state of suppression and rejection. God desires for you to desire him. The gateway to him is open you must be willing to walk through and that narrow gate is Jesus Christ.
Now previously I asked how you know the flames of hell are literal? I’ll keep that question open for now.
The “lake of fire” is found only in the book of Revelation. This is an incredibly prophetic book and it’s imagery is both vivid and often difficult to understand. The “lake of fire” is also referred as the “second death” which is an eternal separation from God and all his divine attributes. Despite the vivid imagery in these passages the interpretation cannot be said to be completely literal. I certainly can’t say that.
According to your religion humans aren't finite the soul survives death that would make you infinite and able to survive eternally. And If you believe in God you have no free will because if you choose to push him away you are punished for it , severely !! Your God is a thug and an amoral one at that.
Again, I already noted that you attempting to subvert the concept of "free will" with a flawed notion of “complete autonomy”. It isn’t the same thing. Within our finite existence we have the ability to do whatever we please, but we do have some primary choices to make about our sin and relationship with Christ. Reason being is that when we exit this life we enter God’s eternity and we are ……ah, I said all this in my previous reply LOL…..see that.
He has every right to do so? This is exactly why people who follow him are amoral. You're an abject slave with this mentality. I " choose " not to be in his righteousness by my own " free will " and do NOT fear any punishment for it. If there is a God described by the Bible and I'm sentenced to Hell for choosing to exercise my free will he is unworthy to worship , be praised or followed. If he punishes me because I exercised my own thought processes of critical thinking , logic , reason it proves he's unworthy and amoral
I understand, you want a consequence free existence with total autonomy.
I don't want it I've chosen hell , he's unworthy of praise and worship. He's amoral. I turn my back on all of those great things he has in store for me for the simple reason of any deity who would punish you with eternal torture for exercising your own free will if amoral and a false God
I understand.
Sounds like my Mother was brainwashed by her parents and didn't have the intellectual honesty to seek out all side of the story and just believe what she was taught because she was taught it and decided to brainwash her children the same way. I however didn't brainwash my children. I let them make their own decisions when they were old enough.
I understand.
I never baptized my children. My Mother once told my daughter when she was 8 that she was going to hell because she wasn't baptized. Only with religion would telling an 8 year old girl this is acceptable. This caused a HUGE rift between my Mother and I and we didn't speak for a LONG time after that. Imagine telling your 8 year old granddaughter she's going to burn forever because some " Special man didn't pour water on your head " My daughter was traumatized and that's when I let her know , God is a story in a book written by men and that hell is just a story in that book. I let my children decide for themselves if they want to believe in a deity. None of them have.
Your mother approached that situation poorly and I’m sorry about that. I would never confront a child of that age with the doctrine of hell. It’s unnecessary for a child to discuss those kinds of topics that can’t fully grasp. That was a poor choice.
Someone murders my child YOU or anyone else have NO right what so ever to take away that " sin " No one else can absolve them on my behalf. Vicarious redemption is amoral. A man rapes , beats and murders your child , Jesus says it's okay and if he's sincere and repents you will all be together in heaven. This is repugnant and disgusting but hey you're all in heaven and there is NO animosity or ill will it's all good we're all in the Kingdom of Heaven
I've seen my best friend deny God because of the loss of his grandmother (who served as his mother for most of his youth). I've seen families torn apart because of the loss of loved ones. I've seen men and women of God leave their faith behind when death comes in their lives. My grandmother lost my grandfather 21 years ago and to this day she talks about him and misses him dearly every single day and questions why God took him like he did.
I've also seen the best come out of folks in moments of utter despair.
I watched my sister tragically lose her fiance 4 years ago. Great guy....strong, fit, growing career and then one evening on a stair climber at the gym his heart stopped and he died almost instantly. It was later discovered he had an undiagnosed heart condition since birth (doctors believe) and the Lord took him home. My sister was obliterated, but she grew in her faith because of it....she actually drew closer to God in the process. Since that time she's undertaken a number of charitable events in his name and keeps contact with his family. She’s witnessed to members of my family and others and has become a strong, strong woman because of the loss. Just two weeks ago she announced her engagement to a new man in her life.....another terrific man. It's a blessing seeing all my sisters married to good men that love them and their families. My sister will always remember the man she lost tragically and we won't know exactly why the Lord called him home like he did, but I can say that he's now with his Lord and savior and his memory and my sister's testimony has touched so many over the last 4 years.
Another story (and I've shared this before) involves a coworker of my wife....awesome story!! My wife's coworker lost her baby granddaughter tragically in an accident caused by her son (the child's uncle). The child's mother was devastated as was her brother who was responsible for the accident, but in a moment of sheer grace and love the mother completely forgave her brother. While on their knees, within a private moment of utter grace and despair and forgiveness, my wife's coworker snapped a picture of the two of them on their knees in an embrace in the child's room. At the child's funeral the child's estranged biker father came with his entire biker gang with the intent of killing his brother in law because of the death of his daughter. At the funeral service the mother shared Christ with the crowd and the forgiveness and love she had for her brother. They showed a slide show of the life of the young child that was taken and the precious image capture by their mother (my wife’s coworker) on their knees in the child's room. That day the entire biker gang dedicated their lives to Christ and forgave the lost child’s uncle.
I recall a story I was told by an African missionary who had worked in various countries of Africa for many years. He and his wife were both wonderful servants of the church. One tragic day a notorious gang apprehended the missionary couple and proceeded to beat the missionary man half to death. They allowed him to live in order for him to watch the gang rape his wife and then beat her and murder her by firing squad. These men were eventually caught for their crimes, but the missionary man (filled with the love and grace of Christ Jesus) forgave the men (despite his loss) and evn lead some of to accept Christ as their savior turning their lives completely around.
Sometimes the evil we perceive in our lives, when put in the hands of God, can change lives in powerful positive ways we'd never expect.
We tend to focus on the darkness and negativity of each moment, but we rarely take the time to revisit the situation years later or chronicle the aftermath.....we miss the potential and the reality of so much goodness that often arises out of tragedy. I don’t enjoy being put to the fire, but I can assure you that Jesus Christ is best way through it! His grace, mercy and justice is simply unfathomable.
You seem like a nice person but your ideology is disgusting. You seem like a intelligent person but how you can turn a blind eye to this bullshit is beyond me but that's why they call it apologetics.
You seem like a decent, intelligent man as well. If you needed help I’d help you or your family. If was stranded and needed help I believe you'd help me or my family.
Apologetics does not turn a blind eye on anything. It adds the all important context, explains ideas, helps give theological guidance, but most importantly it gives the reason for having the hope we do in Christ.
It’s why I have 1 Peter 3:15 is under my avatar…..that’s the foundation of apologetics in scripture.
1 Peter 3:15
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;