insulin for the first time..

[pellius]

Jeff King.  No GH, no insulin, no peptides, and no cycles you need a Phd to understand.

With all the options why chose one that could kill you? 

Because we weren't born like Jeff King. Few had the options that Jeff had vis-a-vis bodybuilding.

I remember when he first got some fame after winning the America. Just mind boggling. Then he seemed to just disappear. I don't think he ever competed in the IFBB so that might have hurt his publicity.

Just such a gifted bodybuilder.

[pellius]

Totally agree with this. Not to say that means you shouldn't take normal precautions but the constant talk of abscesses/infections isn't as common as one would be led to believe.

Yes, chances are if you got an infection it's because of unsterile gear, usually water based ug. Remember as a kid wiping out on your bike and ripping the skin off your elbow on the filthy sidewalk germ infested side walk or stepping on broken glass on the road. I remember as a boy stepping on rusted nail at a construction site. It went right through my slippers and right in my heel. Just limped home, washed it off and put a band aid on it. That nail has been sitting there forever picking up germs, push the germs on my slipper from walking on the ground stepping on dog shit, and right into my dirty unwashed heels.

This is not to be confused with a STERILE abcess. I had a friend that just kept injecting into his traps. He injected EVERDAY, never giving a chance for the oil to dissipate. He thought he had developed traps but when I touched it it felt like a water balloon. Spongy. I told him it wasn't muscle but just oil. I ended up draining over 60cc of fluid out of each of his traps.

[WalterWhite]

Because we weren't born like Jeff King. Few had the options that Jeff had vis-a-vis bodybuilding.

I remember when he first got some fame after winning the America. Just mind boggling. Then he seemed to just disappear. I don't think he ever competed in the IFBB so that might have hurt his publicity.

Just such a gifed bodybuilder.

Not sure what you mean as far as options.  I knew him and trained with him a few times when I lived in Western MA. He knew it was time for him to move on from the bb politics and finish his education. He became a doctor in physical therapy and has worked in the western MA area where he went to college undergrad. He trained balls to the wall with heavy compound movements and his diet was always spot on and ahead of its time.

There is a interview with him somewhere where he discussed how complex the chemistry has become in modern bb.

He is featured in this article and is well respected in his field.

http://healthcarenews.com/a-leap-of-progress-sportsmetrics-helps-female-athletes-jump-higher-not-harder/

[pellius]

Not sure what you mean as far as options.  I knew him and trained with him a few times when I lived in Western MA. He knew it was time for him to move on from the bb politics and finish his education. He became a doctor in physical therapy and has worked in the western MA area where he went to college undergrad. He trained balls to the wall with heavy compound movements and his diet was always spot on and ahead of its time.

There is a interview with him somewhere where he discussed how complex the chemistry has become in modern bb.

He is featured in this article and is well respected in his field.

http://healthcarenews.com/a-leap-of-progress-sportsmetrics-helps-female-athletes-jump-higher-not-harder/

What I meant by the options he had that the rest of us didn't is his genetic gifts. There are many out there that train balls to the wall and will never carry the amount of lean muscle he has. There are some not as genetically gifted that can be as advanced or more so in term of lean muscle mass with the use of high dosages of AAS, hgh and insulin. I don't think someone like, say, Jay Cutler was as genetically gifted as Jeff, but through the use and abuse of hormones he was able to exceed that amount of muscle mass Jeff carried. Whether or not one think that's an improvement is a subjective evaluation.

Can't believe that's a picture of Jeff. Even when a bber leaves the sport and stops training and shrinks considerably I can still see it's the same person. Not so with  this picture which I am assuming is Jeff because you posted it.

Still good for him. He found a rewarding career and I assume he is healthy, happy and fulfilled. People here should always keep in mind that you can achieve these things in life without having big muscles.

I'll check out the link now. (Should have first before posting.)

[Jizmo]

Do you feel right away effects of slin ? It's my 3 or 4 day I'm up to 12iu and 10iu per day. Haven't got any sign of hypo. Today I used 12iu preworkout and drank protein and oats right after, then 15min later I drank over the 1hour workout 70gr of dextrose and post workout protein and oats. I have never feel tiredness or no special pump. Is it me who have high tolerance or pen not working(hardly doubt it. Always in the fridge).

just wait half an hour before drinking your shake after you shot your slin and youll feel it lol
well, DONT DO THAT ffs  

it takes about 30 minutes until insulin starts lowering your blood sugar. that does NOT mean it doesnt work right away though.
i dont know if this is true but i ASSUME if you inject slin and dont eat, your body releases all stored liver glycogen in order to keep blood sugar stable.
this is a safety mechanism, because insulin is draining sugar from your blood all the time - if its not there then your body has to get it from somewhere in order to keep you from fainting.
 i mean thats essentially what liver glycogen is for, its an energy reserve. kind of a buffer for dropping blood sugar. if you eat right after ur injection then your liver glycogen stores stay full, because well, your blood sugar raises because of your meal.
now with a liver full of glycogen you always have a buffer even during your workout. youre very unlikely to go hypo if you ingest carbs after a slin shot because the liver holds around 100g of carbs or so.

now if you do that on a keto diet where your liver glycogen is completely depleted you will go hypo INSANELY FAST during workouts.

ive also experimented with letting the insulin kick in before eating and starting my workout. i basically waited 30-40min after my injection and then took my shake. during that time i assume the insulin completely emptied my liver glycogen. even with the VERY SAME intra workout nutrition as usually i was on the verge of hypo ALL THE TIME during my workout, because the liver glycogen as a buffer was just not there anymore. very uncomfortable.
this does not happen if you simply start ingesting carbs right away with the slin shot.

[pellius]

Insulin does work pretty quick but how quick you feel it depends on how what type of slin you use and how much. After injecting insulin and it gets into your system your blood sugar starts to lower but you don't feel it until it starts to get pretty low. Normal fasting blood  sugar levels are around 70-90 mg/dl. Most are around 80 mg/dl. So after you take insulin even when it drops to 60 you won't really feel it. Of course as it gets lower symptoms will come on gradually. That's why insulin is relatively safe if you know what you are doing and know what the symptoms are. 100 of millions of people use insulin safely everyday. You get a lot of warning signs and you have to take a lot of slin for it to be fatal or cause brain damage. You take 10ius on an empty stomach you may pass out but there is more than enough sugar stored in your liver and muscles to not present a danger. In fact, I would recommend that you take say 8iu of Humulin R and wait for about a half hour so you have an idea of the symptoms as it GRADUALLY comes on. Have a friend there, have your glucose tabs and some gatorade with 40 grams of sugar in it. Down that drink and you will feel the symptoms disappear almost immediately. Sugar, even sucrose, is essentially predigested carbs and goes into the blood stream without having to go through the whole digestive process.

Why do this? Why did I do this as an experiment on myself (I don't use insulin)? It's because the symptoms do come on so gradually that people often ignore it. That's when you get into trouble and pass out. You want to know and be very familiar with the symptoms when you are going hypo. Best to do it in a controlled environment rather than find yourself driving or away from any sugar source and have hypo hit.

[Jizmo]

there are a couple mistakes in there^

muscle glycogen does not help at all if you inject insulin. your body cant just suck the glycogen out of your muscles to avoid hypo. only liver glycogen helps

its also impossible to ignore the signs of hypo.

below a blood glucose of 60 your body goes into fight or flight mode HARD. its IMPOSSIBLE to ignore that. you start to sweat, adrenaline gets pumped out like crazy, heart rate increases. vision gets blurry. you wont be able to think straight anymore.
if blood sugar drops too low (50 or even 40) most people get very disoriented. you wont even be able to solve the simplest math questions anymore and youll be completely dizzy and irritated until you get some sugar in.
if you can still find your fridge.
completely serious here. its a vicious circle, once your BS drops too low youre much more likely to fuck up. so dont let it drop low to begin with.
ive let my BS drop down below 50 before, testwise. VERY uncomfortable experience. feels like youre on drugs.

[WOOO]

Why take the risk?

Honest question.

[Jizmo]

Why take the risk?

Honest question.

because i trust myself in terms of not being a retard

there only is a risk if you are beyond dumb.

[WOOO]

because i trust myself in terms of not being a retard

there only is a risk if you are beyond dumb.

Not really what I'm asking... What's the point of temporary gains for long term health risks and in the case of insulin potential immediate risks...

I was also very confident in my intellect in my youth. Age has tempered that confidence (arrogance) leading me to avoid some behaviours that I previously accepted as safe enough...

[pellius]

there are a couple mistakes in there^

muscle glycogen does not help at all if you inject insulin. your body cant just suck the glycogen out of your muscles to avoid hypo. only liver glycogen helps

its also impossible to ignore the signs of hypo.

below a blood glucose of 60 your body goes into fight or flight mode HARD. its IMPOSSIBLE to ignore that. you start to sweat, adrenaline gets pumped out like crazy, heart rate increases. vision gets blurry. you wont be able to think straight anymore.
if blood sugar drops too low (50 or even 40) most people get very disoriented. you wont even be able to solve the simplest math questions anymore and youll be completely dizzy and irritated until you get some sugar in.
if you can still find your fridge.
completely serious here. its a vicious circle, once your BS drops too low youre much more likely to fuck up. so dont let it drop low to begin with.
ive let my BS drop down below 50 before, testwise. VERY uncomfortable experience. feels like youre on drugs.

It is possible to ignore it and it does happen. I have this guy at work who passes out several times during the course of a year because of low blood sugar. He gets so involved in his work that he just seems unaware of it. We actually have a drawer where we keep those glucose gel packs which we have used before. Also, my aunt is a diabetic and though she is more aware she has had episodes. People get so involved in things that by the time they realize they are going hypo it's starting to effect their motor abilities and thinking process. Most people who have experience know what to do and get it taken care of before they pass out but imagine if you are driving and wait until you actually get disorientated.

But symptom will become very hard to ignore if you are aware of the fact that you are a diabetic or have exo insulin in your system. And you are right about not being able to release sugar from the muscles. I don't know what I was thinking. I was going hypo...  

[Jizmo]

But symptom will become very hard to ignore if you are aware of the fact that you are a diabetic or have exo insulin in your system. And you are right about not being able to release sugar from the muscles. I don't know what I was thinking. I was going hypo...  

damn, yeah i didnt really think about diabetics. they gotta inject insulin several times a day. for them its probably such a habitual thing that they might forget it.
if u use insulin pre workout you gotta prepare your shake and your intra nutrition beforehand anyway, if you forget that you just injected insulin then yeah thats kinda stupid =D i do know some guys who would fall into that category though lol. AAS users are often pretty out of it mentally and a couple guys i know would probably fuck it up.

[WalterWhite]

What I meant by the options he had that the rest of us didn't is his genetic gifts. There are many out there that train balls to the wall and will never carry the amount of lean muscle he has. There are some not as genetically gifted that can be as advanced or more so in term of lean muscle mass with the use of high dosages of AAS, hgh and insulin. I don't think someone like, say, Jay Cutler was as genetically gifted as Jeff, but through the use and abuse of hormones he was able to exceed that amount of muscle mass Jeff carried. Whether or not one think that's an improvement is a subjective evaluation.

Can't believe that's a picture of Jeff. Even when a bber leaves the sport and stops training and shrinks considerably I can still see it's the same person. Not so with  this picture which I am assuming is Jeff because you posted it.

Still good for him. He found a rewarding career and I assume he is healthy, happy and fulfilled. People here should always keep in mind that you can achieve these things in life without having big muscles.

I'll check out the link now. (Should have first before posting.)

Yes thats Jeff and I still see him and his thick neck haha!  You have to consider he competed in his teens and 20's and is now in his 50's. He also looks down 40lbs is my guess based on his lean face.  I think he looks great.

Looks like an older and thinner version..at least to me.

[ritch]

Not really what I'm asking... What's the point of temporary gains for long term health risks and in the case of insulin potential immediate risks...

I was also very confident in my intellect in my youth. Age has tempered that confidence (arrogance) leading me to avoid some behaviours that I previously accepted as safe enough...

The gains of everything you take are not permanent, slin no different...

[pellius]

The gains of everything you take are not permanent, slin no different...

Right. Everything in life is temporary -- even life itself.

And there's a difference between use and abuse. The vast majority of people live longer and healthier lives due to insulin. There is a doctor, not mainstream, who recommends insulin use even in non diabetics to keep blood sugar on the low side to minimize glycation (A1c) which is what is killing you and something everyone has to some extent. This is why the only thing thus far that has been proven to extend life is calorie restriction. Low calories means low blood sugar means less glycation. Exo insulin helps your body keep blood sugar on the low normal side (70mg/dl). It makes a difference in the long run.

[ritch]

Right. Everything in life is temporary -- even life itself.

And there's a difference between use and abuse. The vast majority of people live longer and healthier lives due to insulin. There is a doctor, not mainstream, who recommends insulin use even in non diabetics to keep blood sugar on the low side to minimize glycation (A1c) which is what is killing you and something everyone has to some extent. This is why the only thing thus far that has been proven to extend life is calorie restriction. Low calories means low blood sugar means less glycation. Exo insulin helps your body keep blood sugar on the low normal side (70mg/dl). It makes a difference in the long run.

Yup! Palumbo once said something along those lines.

[Jizmo]

were abusers though  
injecting big amounts of exo insulin and then raising your blood sugar with dextrose/"crap carbs" to match the insulin dose will certainly not be beneficial towards longevity  

[WOOO]

were abusers though  
injecting big amounts of exo insulin and then raising your blood sugar with dextrose/"crap carbs" to match the insulin dose will certainly not be beneficial towards longevity  

As long as you're going in eyes open.... No objections from me.

[ritch]

were abusers though  
injecting big amounts of exo insulin and then raising your blood sugar with dextrose/"crap carbs" to match the insulin dose will certainly not be beneficial towards longevity  

speaking of crap carbs... Was it Chad Nichols who guys eating that pie crust around their slin shots?

[Jizmo]

speaking of crap carbs... Was it Chad Nichols who guys eating that pie crust around their slin shots?

wasnt it pie filling? custard or something. yeah why not, its the same as sugar basically. maybe even has more glucose, all artificial anyway.
probably a good way to cover 20iu upwards. extremely dense in carbs, like jam or any other sugary spread.
you could easily down a pound of jam within minutes. that would be 200g carbs easily. good for the guys who eat like birds, but id rather stick to my candy

[ritch]

wasnt it pie filling? custard or something. yeah why not, its the same as sugar basically. maybe even has more glucose, all artificial anyway.
probably a good way to cover 20iu upwards. extremely dense in carbs, like jam or any other sugary spread.
you could easily down a pound of jam within minutes. that would be 200g carbs easily. good for the guys who eat like birds, but id rather stick to my candy

Was pie something, a gimmick of sorts to distinguish himself from the others I think. All this slin talk has me tempted to start back up but it just does not make me stronger or much bigger for all the extra food needed as I already need a stupid amount of carbs to grow (over 600 or forget it and 600 is a low estimate)

[lilhawk1]

Nichols used pie filling.  Like its some big friggin secret.

[Jizmo]

Was pie something, a gimmick of sorts to distinguish himself from the others I think. All this slin talk has me tempted to start back up but it just does not make me stronger or much bigger for all the extra food needed as I already need a stupid amount of carbs to grow (over 600 or forget it and 600 is a low estimate)

i gain a shitton of additional weight / intra muscular glycogen by adding slin and simply switching a portion of my carbs into the intra workout window.
i actually can keep calories low as FUCK when im on slin and theres still no way around gaining weight
on my last bulk i only ate 200 or 300 kcals a day extra versus my cutting calories and i gained weight like crazy just because of slin, nutrient timing and MK677...

i dont think you need to increase kcals AT ALL with slin... at least not as long as your insulin sensitivity is off the charts (create that environment during your cuts)

[ritch]

i gain a shitton of additional weight / intra muscular glycogen by adding slin and simply switching a portion of my carbs into the intra workout window.
i actually can keep calories low as FUCK when im on slin and theres still no way around gaining weight
on my last bulk i only ate 200 or 300 kcals a day extra versus my cutting calories and i gained weight like crazy just because of slin, nutrient timing and MK677...

i dont think you need to increase kcals AT ALL with slin... at least not as long as your insulin sensitivity is off the charts (create that environment during your cuts)

my insulin sensitivity has to be naturally high as I look fairly lean on 400 grams of carbs per day, lol! Or am I mistaking being an ecto for high insulin sensitivity?

[Jizmo]

well first of all you have to differentiate between fat tissue and muscle tissue:
low insulin sensitivity in fat tissue = good
low insulin sensitivity in muscle tissue = bad
id guess for most people its either all good or all bad though, not sure if you can independently increase one over the other (even though metformin is said to do this and some other GDAs too)

if you can eat a ton of carbs and not gain weight/fat i'd be inclined to think your overall insulin sensitivity is pretty bad
of course there are numerous other hormones involved in that so its not all black and white

look at juan morel. pretty cool that he can contest prep on thousands of calories of oreos and ice cream, but his insulin sensitivity must be utter shit.
otherwise he would spill over quickly and get fat.
if his muscular insulin sensitivity was good he could just eat 500g carbs, fill out all his muscle glycogen and then he would spill over into fat tissue.
but he requires thousands of grams of carbs to fill out. his muscular insulin sensitivity must be shit - but since he doesnt get fat his fat tissue insulin senstivity is probably shit too (which is good).
comprende?