F' it, ready to hop back on!

[theworm]

Plan:  400 test, 300 deca, all from a U.S. Pharmacy.   Maybe 1 mg arimidex EOD.

How long is too long on the above?  20 weeks then drop down to HRt levels?

Been off 5 months, feel pretty good, just hate being small.  No fun!  Feel selfish but the Arnold thread on G&O has me motivated.   Life is too short to be small.   I don't know why everyone isn't on, lol.  I look at my brother and law, 45 fat and out of shape, always tired, sleeps every time he sits down.  That's not what I want.  Prob the same health me running the above vs the sedentary fat person who eats bad and doesn't work out. 

[ritch]

double the doses on both compounds or don't bother. Deca less than 16 weeks is not even worth running. So 20 weeks looks good!

That deca dose is for joint relief, not bb'ing.

[theworm]

double the doses on both compounds or don't bother. Deca less than 16 weeks is not even worth running. So 20 weeks looks good!

That deca dose is for joint relief, not bb'ing.

Serious?  It's real stuff though.   Not trying to compete or anything...

[ritch]

Serious?  It's real stuff though.   Not trying to compete or anything...

first time cycle dose is 500mg test. If you've used gear before, 750mg won't make a difference and I was very hard headed for a long ass time before bumping it up.
So, that pretty much explains how I view 400mg.

The gear I use is real, yes, every turd says that but this is not from small rinky dink back room tub operation....

[heenok]

If that works no need for more gear. If you plateau just up the dose, 20 weeks is a long ass time you have all the time in the world to ramp up the dosages.

[ritch]

If that works no need for more gear. If you plateau just up the dose, 20 weeks is a long ass time you have all the time in the world to ramp up the dosages.

I'd rather start too high! Not like anyone is gonna get "too big", lol... Nor is 800mg test and 600mg deca that dangerous, so why not???

Or... Take the chance and waste a potential 8 weeks waiting to see if the deca works or not which probably won't at 300mg. Depends how advanced the person is. Maybe that will work if the person is a total newb? But you're gonna use 600mg anyway, enjoy the look/benefits of that dose on this cycle!

[Jizmo]

agree on the double up thing !
i think you know my stance towards deca for cycling and PCTing purposes but if youre dead set on it then go for it.
dont use too much adex. 1mg eod is too much for 400 test imo. should work well for 800 though.
dont eat like shit on that cycle, stay sensible and enjoy the ride

[WalterWhite]

Ask ten different people and you will get ten different answers because mileage always varies .  How has your body reacted to past cycles and what kind of shape are you in now?  See how it's going in six weeks and increase if your goals are not being met with a good diet and hard training. 

I agree with Jizmo regarding the adex and the diet.  Oh what US pharmacy has deca?

[ritch]

agree on the double up thing !
i think you know my stance towards deca for cycling and PCTing purposes but if youre dead set on it then go for it.
dont use too much adex. 1mg eod is too much for 400 test imo. should work well for 800 though.
dont eat like shit on that cycle, stay sensible and enjoy the ride

Another argument I have to have with you, lol... That is too much, was waiting on his final decision to correct that.

[Mranabolic]

Agree on the double up on doses with ricth and jizmo

Worm like ritch said , is not dangerous cycle .. Go
Double and enjoy brother

But .. Fuck doing pct on deca lol .. It never clears u just wasting money on pct meds

Even if want pct .. Run the test 8 week more than deca , then pct imo

But beter B/C trust me man , i used to pct , cruise is a lot beter , health and mental aspect my 2 cents

[theworm]

Agree on the double up on doses with ricth and jizmo

Worm like ritch said , is not dangerous cycle .. Go
Double and enjoy brother

But .. Fuck doing pct on deca lol .. It never clears u just wasting money on pct meds

Even if want pct .. Run the test 8 week more than deca , then pct imo

But beter B/C trust me man , i used to pct , cruise is a lot beter , health and mental aspect my 2 cents

My problem is that I would cruise on 300 min.  That can't be good long term

[Jizmo]

My problem is that I would cruise on 300 min.  That can't be good long term

http://www.ergo-log.com/testfewsides.html
ill just leave this here
basically the only real concern is that test lowers HDL. look at the last chart. it compares various dosages of testosterone and effects over 20 weeks. obviously thats not long term but the longest useful human study imo

[ritch]

My problem is that I would cruise on 300 min.  That can't be good long term

you cruise on 300 but wanna "blast" at 400?
Do you see how this makes no sense, lol?

So cruise the way you're supposed to if you wanna be health conscious. 150-200mg max...

[WalterWhite]

http://www.ergo-log.com/testfewsides.html
ill just leave this here
basically the only real concern is that test lowers HDL. look at the last chart. it compares various dosages of testosterone and effects over 20 weeks. obviously thats not long term but the longest useful human study imo

It effect the whole lipid profile and raises red blood cells - hemoglobin/hematocrit.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2583156

[Jizmo]

It effect the whole lipid profile and raises red blood cells - hemoglobin/hematocrit.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2583156

your study is on "bodybuilders using testosterone and anabolic steroids".
no specific amounts, no compounds, no length of use mentioned. thats a pretty useless study imo.

in the testosterone only study the only CONCERN was hdl.
the hematocrit increase was not dangerous, its specifically stated there.
LDL is also much less affected than HDL for most people. id say testosterone itself is very mild regarding LDL.
of course genetics always play a role and its a very individual thing. ive seen bloodwork of people having LDL in the 200s and triglycerides in the 300s or guys having elevated hematocrit from a single course of AAS. you never know how that looked beforehand though.

speaking for myself, my LDL is always low and ive been blasting pretty much nonstop for the past 2 years. triglycerides also low. blood sugar normal / even on the low side (id assume ApoA too, havent tested)
my hemoglobin and hematocrit have always been normal too. only number in the shitter is HDL.

[theworm]

your study is on "bodybuilders using testosterone and anabolic steroids".
no specific amounts, no compounds, no length of use mentioned. thats a pretty useless study imo.

in the testosterone only study the only CONCERN was hdl.
the hematocrit increase was not dangerous, its specifically stated there.
LDL is also much less affected than HDL for most people. id say testosterone itself is very mild regarding LDL.
of course genetics always play a role and its a very individual thing. ive seen bloodwork of people having LDL in the 200s and triglycerides in the 300s or guys having elevated hematocrit from a single course of AAS. you never know how that looked beforehand though.

speaking for myself, my LDL is always low and ive been blasting pretty much nonstop for the past 2 years. triglycerides also low. blood sugar normal / even on the low side (id assume ApoA too, havent tested)
my hemoglobin and hematocrit have always been normal too. only number in the shitter is HDL.

That's what I'm scare of ... Heart attack, stroke or prostate cancer

That's why I keep flip flopping on the who cycle vs stay on issue

[WalterWhite]

your study is on "bodybuilders using testosterone and anabolic steroids".
no specific amounts, no compounds, no length of use mentioned. thats a pretty useless study imo.

in the testosterone only study the only CONCERN was hdl.
the hematocrit increase was not dangerous, its specifically stated there.
LDL is also much less affected than HDL for most people. id say testosterone itself is very mild regarding LDL.
of course genetics always play a role and its a very individual thing. ive seen bloodwork of people having LDL in the 200s and triglycerides in the 300s or guys having elevated hematocrit from a single course of AAS. you never know how that looked beforehand though.

speaking for myself, my LDL is always low and ive been blasting pretty much nonstop for the past 2 years. triglycerides also low. blood sugar normal / even on the low side (id assume ApoA too, havent tested)
my hemoglobin and hematocrit have always been normal too. only number in the shitter is HDL.

That was a link to the summary not the full study. Interesting though that you would look at trending data as "useless".  Testosterone was used in the study along with oral steroids and they tried to take a look at bodybuilders specially. You love to make blanket statements that are directly contradicted by data. I have worked in cardiac surgery product sales/marketing a long time.

Oh I keep forgetting about your bro science Phd.

[Jizmo]

That was a link to the summary not the full study. Interesting though that you would look at trending data as "useless".  Testosterone was used in the study along with oral steroids and they tried to take a look at bodybuilders specially. You love to make blanket statements that are directly contradicted by data. I have worked in cardiac surgery product sales/marketing a long time.

Oh I keep forgetting about your bro science Phd.

i dont look at trending data as useless.
i look at the study you posted as useless simply because there are major basic parameters missing which are necessary to make a point.
which AAS were used? dosages? length of application? 24/7 control or any recreational drugs involved etc? bodybuilders use a lot of shit and many of them are pathological liars. so as long as the study was not conducted under 24/7 hour supervision its even more biased. they dont even give exact numbers / values (well, that could be the abstract).

without this kind of information provided the study you posted is worthless regarding our discussion (the negative effects of supraphysiological dosages of testosterone on healthy individuals).

the outcome of your study is "steroids cause problems".
well, we all know that already.

the one parameter that is most heavily influenced by using supraphysiological dosages of TESTOSTERONE is HDL.
and for most people this will be the only value of concern in the dosages mentioned (initially we were talking about cruise dosages. so lets be generous and say up to 500mg here).
i dont know how much they used in the study you posted. the study does not give out any information on that.
if they used 2 grams of testosterone and 100mg dbol a day then well, no surprise that HDL was not the only bad number.

your study simply misses our discussion.

to add some personal flavor like you also did, i keep forgetting about the couple pacemakers you sold. they surely make you an expert on cardiovascular diseases  

[WalterWhite]

You have reading comprehension issues due to the superfluous noise in your head caused by taking too much t3. Its prosthetic heart valves not pacemakers (although there is great money in selling them too.). Was also involved in gene and cell therapy studies involving
HIF-1alpha expression post myocardial infarction and harvesting genes post infarction for implantation to the damages myocardium.

It is well suited to the discussion just based on your assertions. For example "in some single cases HDLC was barely detectable (2-7 mg.dl-1)"  Who cares what the dosing is (I can't seem to copy and post the whole study) when you know its potential effects. Every person is different so you may be able to take a gram of test and have little movement in your lipid profile and hematocrit and I might have the opposite result. We all metabolize drugs differently.

I will leave this discussion simply saying that everyone should get regular bloodwork, take baby aspirin, keep bp in check and do regular blood donations. I think you would agree with this.

[Jizmo]

You have reading comprehension issues due to the superfluous noise in your head caused by taking too much t3.

no way, i actually decreased my t3 dosage this morning, my head is clear as never before 

I will leave this discussion simply saying that everyone should get regular bloodwork, take baby aspirin, keep bp in check and do regular blood donations. I think you would agree with this.

fully agree on everything... except ( for the blood donations (since hematocrit numbers return to their previous state within 8 weeks; i also read a theory that there is a rebound of hematocrit after donating blood so that youd end up in a vicious circle by donating regularly).
it might not be necessary for some, but it certainly does no harm, so yeah if you got the option of donating blood then go for it.

[WalterWhite]

no way, i actually decreased my t3 dosage this morning, my head is clear as never before  ;Dfully agree on everything... except ( for the blood donations (since hematocrit numbers return to their previous state within 8 weeks; i also read a theory that there is a rebound of hematocrit after donating blood so that youd end up in a vicious circle by donating regularly).
it might not be necessary for some, but it certainly does no harm, so yeah if you got the option of donating blood then go for it.

Pushing ten gallons now but I just view it from the perspective of helping people.  No rebound at all thankfully but interesting hypothesis.

[Jizmo]

thats quite a lot ! and of course the helping people aspect is admirable.

my father has always been regularly donating blood (hes going towards 60) and i believe it helps his BP...
he is overweight and has extremely bad eating habits/lifestyle (heavy smoker, occasional drinker). his BP is a bit high but not as high as youd expect it to be...
maybe "normal" guys benefit even more, since RBCs probably increase faster with heavy training. i dont know.

since my RBCs or hematocrit never really increased i havent wrapped my mind around donating regularly.
i hate it when they draw blood for bloodwork already, i would probably pass out if they drew a pint of blood from me

[WalterWhite]

thats quite a lot ! and of course the helping people aspect is admirable.

my father has always been regularly donating blood (hes going towards 60) and i believe it helps his BP...
he is overweight and has extremely bad eating habits/lifestyle (heavy smoker, occasional drinker). his BP is a bit high but not as high as youd expect it to be...
maybe "normal" guys benefit even more, since RBCs probably increase faster with heavy training. i dont know.

since my RBCs or hematocrit never really increased i havent wrapped my mind around donating regularly.
i hate it when they draw blood for bloodwork already, i would probably pass out if they drew a pint of blood from me

I've gotten used to it over the years and honestly began after seeing someone bleed out in the OR. Every eight weeks is not bad but when I donate double reds like last time I feel kind of crappy for awhile. Usually I only do that a couple times a year.