Roman Gladiators were REAL ALPHA MALES

[Alfurinn]

"Although this book focuses on gay male culture, it is also important to make a distinction between the conceptualized ideal bodies of men and those of women. The female body ideal was created through the objectification of women-by men-and has fairly been protested by many cultural critics, feminists and writers. Although, nowadays, women objectify the male body in the same way men have objectified the female body for millenia, they have been doing this on a significat scale only since the onset of women's movement: the past thirty years account for only 1 percent of the period under discussion. The critical difference is that women did not create the male body ideal, because it was already there; it was created, cultivated and celebrated by men for 2,500 years before women would have a say in the matter. More to the point, because homosexuality was widespread practice by the culture of the Greek gymnasium as the Greek body ideal evolved, and because men who had sex with men were the ones who conceptualized and refined the ideal, by and large the Greek ideal can be defined as a homosexual concept."

[Sizwe]

the roman empire lasted a very time only going in to decline after it embraced Christianity

The sacking of Rome by the Visigoths in 410AD was a turning point for the Roman Empire, but blaming Christianity for this was refuted in 426AD by St Augustine of Hippo in his book 'The City of God'.
This book is also considered one of the corner stones of Western thought, you can read it here to learn more.. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1201.htm

[B_B_C]

The sacking of Rome by the Visigoths in 410AD was a turning point for the Roman Empire, but blaming Christianity for this was refuted in 426AD by St Augustine of Hippo in his book 'The City of God'.
This book is also considered one of the corner stones of Western thought, you can read it here to learn more.. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1201.htm

saying that the Roman Empire declined after embracing Christianity is not allocating blame
One might reasonably expect a prince of the church to defend the church
The roman empire continued, albeit not headquartered in Rome, till the 15th Century

[Sizwe]

saying that the Roman Empire declined after embracing Christianity is not allocating blame

Oh ok, it just seemed like you were implying that it declined because of Christianity.

[6 Reps]

"Although this book focuses on gay male culture, it is also important to make a distinction between the conceptualized ideal bodies of men and those of women. The female body ideal was created through the objectification of women-by men-and has fairly been protested by many cultural critics, feminists and writers. Although, nowadays, women objectify the male body in the same way men have objectified the female body for millenia, they have been doing this on a significat scale only since the onset of women's movement: the past thirty years account for only 1 percent of the period under discussion. The critical difference is that women did not create the male body ideal, because it was already there; it was created, cultivated and celebrated by men for 2,500 years before women would have a say in the matter. More to the point, because homosexuality was widespread practice by the culture of the Greek gymnasium as the Greek body ideal evolved, and because men who had sex with men were the ones who conceptualized and refined the ideal, by and large the Greek ideal can be defined as a homosexual concept."

What book is this from?

[drkaje]

"Although this book focuses on gay male culture, it is also important to make a distinction between the conceptualized ideal bodies of men and those of women. The female body ideal was created through the objectification of women-by men-and has fairly been protested by many cultural critics, feminists and writers. Although, nowadays, women objectify the male body in the same way men have objectified the female body for millenia, they have been doing this on a significat scale only since the onset of women's movement: the past thirty years account for only 1 percent of the period under discussion. The critical difference is that women did not create the male body ideal, because it was already there; it was created, cultivated and celebrated by men for 2,500 years before women would have a say in the matter. More to the point, because homosexuality was widespread practice by the culture of the Greek gymnasium as the Greek body ideal evolved, and because men who had sex with men were the ones who conceptualized and refined the ideal, by and large the Greek ideal can be defined as a homosexual concept."

Makes a ton of sense.

That being said: Wouldn't evolution* have created a male physical ideal in women's minds? Something along the lines of functional fitness with some minimal fat stores for leaner times. Bigger, stronger, men would have been better able to protect women from dinosaurs, marauders, hunting, and have been more capable of physical labor depending upon whatever region's agricultural needs dictated.

Someone who was morbidly obese or too skinny wouldn't have had any ability to make women feel safe enough to have children.

All things being equal; a taller, fit, guy will get more pussy. Height is a positive trait in men. Regardless or how advanced we've become, characteristics that would have increased chances of survival and/or reduced infant mortality seem hard-wired into our mate selection process.

* I mean evolution in terms of how environment shapes needs, real or perceived.

[_aj_]

Makes a ton of sense.

That being said: Wouldn't evolution* have created a male physical ideal in women's minds? Something along the lines of functional fitness with some minimal fat stores for leaner times. Bigger, stronger, men would have been better able to protect women from dinosaurs, marauders, hunting, and have been more capable of physical labor depending upon whatever region's agricultural needs dictated.

Someone who was morbidly obese or too skinny wouldn't have had any ability to make women feel safe enough to have children.

All things being equal; a taller, fit, guy will get more pussy. Height is a positive trait in men. Regardless or how advanced we've become, characteristics that would have increased chances of survival and/or reduced infant mortality seem hard-wired into our mate selection process.

* I mean evolution in terms of how environment shapes needs, real or perceived.

Dinosaurs?

[6 Reps]

Makes a ton of sense.

That being said: Wouldn't evolution* have created a male physical ideal in women's minds? Something along the lines of functional fitness with some minimal fat stores for leaner times. Bigger, stronger, men would have been better able to protect women from dinosaurs, marauders, hunting, and have been more capable of physical labor depending upon whatever region's agricultural needs dictated.

Someone who was morbidly obese or too skinny wouldn't have had any ability to make women feel safe enough to have children.

All things being equal; a taller, fit, guy will get more pussy. Height is a positive trait in men. Regardless or how advanced we've become, characteristics that would have increased chances of survival and/or reduced infant mortality seem hard-wired into our mate selection process.

* I mean evolution in terms of how environment shapes needs, real or perceived.

Can't we make a similar argument for why men like women with big tits?  That big tits mean more milk for the newborn offspring? And a shapely woman would symbolize good health and fitness, again an ability to quickly flee or fend off foe?

[drkaje]

Can't we make a similar argument for why men like women with big tits?  That big tits mean more milk for the newborn offspring? And a shapely woman would symbolize good health and fitness, again an ability to quickly flee or fend off foe?

I have my own bro-science based theory on how women gain power over men with tits vs ass: Guys overly nurtured (by their moms) seek tits. Men with abandonment issues love ass.

[Alfurinn]

What book is this from?

"There is enough evidence in the art and literature of Classical Greece to substantiate that not only was the Greek gymnasium a male-centered institution, but a homosexual-centered one. During the Golden Age of Greece (around the fifth century BC), the high point of Greek culture and influence, the Greek gymnasium became prominent. The culture of the Greek gymnasium, where Greek athletes were born, the Olympic games were set in motion, and the male body ideal was conceptualized, can be best described as one that was largely made up by men who were sexually and romantically interested in and involved with other men".

Muscle Boys: Gay Gym Culture by Erick Alvarez.

[Alfurinn]

Key quote: "largely," but not exclusively [viz. the distinction between homosexuality and homoeroticism (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=607838.25)].

Obviously, because they were not restricting the entrance to people according to their sexual orientation, but still, heterosexual men were not substantially involved in the conceptualization of the ideal male body and that's natural because the male body is not the object of their attraction and interest as it is for men who like men so they were not spending their time with men's bodies in their minds. Instead, the conceptualisation of the ideal female body is the work of heterosexual men for the most part.

That's why the Greek ideal is considered a homosexual concept and one of the earliest expessions of what today is called "gay (sub)culture".

As matter of fact, one of the reasons why modern bodybuilding leant towards excessively muscular bodies has to do with its link to male homosexuality.

[HTexan]

[Rudee]

Can't we make a similar argument for why men like women with big tits?  That big tits mean more milk for the newborn offspring? And a shapely woman would symbolize good health and fitness, again an ability to quickly flee or fend off foe?

Just like woman like a man with strong buttocks and thighs.  Because strong buttocks and thighs implies thrusting power, for which a man can better spread his seed.

[Alfurinn]

Good points. Do you think that perhaps the author's hypothesis underestimates an internalized gaze of female desire (eros) in the Greek (gay) conceptualization of the ideal male body?

I don't think Greek culture at the time really cared much about what women had to say about the male body. If you look at the iconography of the time the male body was heavily depicted from the homoerotic perspective which was not exclusively about naked bodies but also about display of athleticism, strength, etc which are also aspects of male homoeroticism or what is considered sexually appealing in male same-sex attraction both as spectarors and as participants (practitioners and dedicated athletes)

[HTexan]

Women were believe to below men. Plus they didn't have the modern culture of "OMG he fucked a guy!!! Let's burn him at the stake!!".

Samurai fucked guys too. Spartans did as well.  Most old warrior cultures fucked men.

[Fortress]

Guys fucking and sucking guys is g ay.

HTH

[drkaje]

Guys fucking and sucking guys is g ay.

HTH

Only if you want it to be. 

[Skeletor]

Only if you want it to be. 

[Tha Grim Lifter]

Sticking your ass out isn't gay unless there's a cock in it.

and even then that's not gay unless you want it to be.

[johnnynoname]

I don't know why the world has so much against homosexuality


I mean---nothing is more beautiful than when two women make out

[drkaje]

I don't know why the world has so much against homosexuality


I mean---nothing is more beautiful than when two women make out

Unless they're ugly, fat, or both.

[HTexan]

Unless they're ugly, fat, or both.

This

Yeah I agree, 2 guys fucking in their own home, doesn't effect me one bit.
With all the fucked up shit going on in the world, I can't believe simple minded people focus on this.