London - White van runs over pedestrians near London Bridge

[jude2]

The libs say getting rid of guns will help

[NelsonMuntz]

The libs say getting rid of guns will help

yep and what is so funny about those anti-gun politicians, celebs and other rich super rich and protected by security otypes is all their bodyguards and security are armed to the teeth themselves

easy for some washington/ottawa/uk slob politician and uber celeb to bitch about love, tolerance and anti weapons for the public when anyone who gets within 5 feet of these fuckers could realistically get shot or kicked into a coma for doing so

[mazrim]

Not again. Conker always takes a beating from ND when it comes to gun issues.

[jude2]

yep and what is so funny about those anti-gun politicians, celebs and other rich super rich and protected by security otypes is all their bodyguards and security are armed to the teeth themselves

easy for some washington/ottawa/uk slob politician and uber celeb to bitch about love, tolerance and anti weapons for the public when anyone who gets within 5 feet of these fuckers could realistically get shot or kicked into a coma for doing so

Exactly.

[Skylge]

Trump was right about CNN....

http://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/06/04/did-cnn-stage-this-muslim-protest-against-terror-in-london-watch/

Gets even worse here in Holland, public broadcasting TV censored words of British PM: "islamic" was removed and "this is for allah" (shouted by terrorists) was also censored

They don't want the Dutch public to know such things

Official stance by Dutch politicians is that all terrorist attacks are incidents and have nothing to do with fascist religion. Go figure....

Trump is blunt, but I think he is right on many things. At least he does something, our politicians only talk and never act

[SuperTed]

I was in London Bridge only 2 hours before the attack occurred. These attacks really seem to be escalating now. I can see it getting worse over the years.

[Waller]

Hahaha he even took his pint.

[Thin Lizzy]

why did you choose to just highlight new york?

well across the nation going on murders where the race is recorded it would appear whites kill more people in total than blacks. yep blacks are largely over represented but this BS that people trying say here that homicide is just really restricted to black ghettos is rubbish

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers

It's the same in every city. Moreover, the formal statistics largely under represent the crimes committed by blacks as witnesses in Ghettos very rarely come out and finger suspects because "Snitches get stitches." It's not even debatable that ghettos are the epicenter of violence in the United States. Your link is yet another effort by the mainstream media to try to get us to not see what's in front of our own eyes. It's the same thing with radical Islam. We are all supposed to buy into the idea that an elderly white woman is just as likely to commit a terrorist act as a young Muslim male.

[bigmc]

i think there's some truth to this but not in the way you think.

i think the security services are likely suppressing suicide notes/messages that are being left behind. these terrorists when they commit these crimes usually want to leave some kind of documentation behind as to why they did it etc

like the 7/7 bombers did citing the invasion of afghanistan. but i cannot remember the last time following any of these attacks in any country that any suicide note was reported. because they're all likely to say we did this because your government is killing muslims in foreign lands etc

the authorities don't want us hearing that. they would rather tell us they did it because "they hate our freedom and way of life" blah blah blah

you are a real low life

seriously

[Conker]

Not again. Conker always takes a beating from ND when it comes to gun issues.

you people really are a different kind of stupid.

we're not debating something that's hypothetical here. the figures are there in black and white.

the US has very little gun control and has proportionally around 5 x more murders than the UK with strict gun controls. the vast majority of murders in the US are committed with guns. and it's the same story all across europe and rest of developed world.

guns are great for protection if only the good guys have them. but in a society where guns are so easily available invariably all the bad guys have them too. so you end up back at the same level playing field you were at with no guns, just with any confrontation having much higher stakes.

as is said take the other night for instance, had that been in the states it's pretty much a certainty those 3 guys would have had guns. chances are the death toll would have been 10 x or more higher.

[Conker]

you are a real low life

seriously

go and get some toilets cleaned you little sh1t rat

[bigmc]

go and get some toilets cleaned you little sh1t rat

why dont you fuck off to the middle east you short fat cu nt

you are complete and utter scum

[Conker]

why dont you fuck off to the middle east you short fat cu nt

you are complete and utter scum

you calling me "fat"   

go suck your mother's underneath you little sh1t hound

[Shizzo]

I still do not get how the majority of British police only carry around a baton. The only time guys with guns show up, are after people have been killed.

Then they all stand around, with full body armor, and automatic weapons "as a show of force". Wouldn't that be more useful BEFOREHAND? I think we can all safely say that it has come to the point that the police over in the UK should be given a fighting chance.

[bigmc]

you calling me "fat"   

go suck your mother's underneath you little sh1t hound

you are a morbidly obese juiced up midget with a huge chip on your shoulder

its not anyone's fault but yours that you are a total failure

if you dont like our government go and live in a third world shit hole and see how that works out stumpy

thats not going to happen though is it

because as much as you complain about the police and the state

you were straight on the phone like a chicken when Gee was on his way down

[Conker]

you are a morbidly obese juiced up midget with a huge chip on your shoulder

its not anyone's fault but yours that you are a total failure

if you dont like our government go and live in a third world shit hole and see how that works out stumpy

thats not going to happen though is it

because as much as you complain about the police and the state

you were straight on the phone like a chicken when Gee was on his way down

ok fatboy i challenge you to post a pic from any time in your life where you're leaner than I am in my avi.

why should i fk off to a 3rd world country? i actually have assets and own sht in this country. why don't you fk off to a 3rd world country you basically live like a 3rd worlder cleaning toilets anyway.

anyway i'm done talking to you. you are literally the worst poster on here. you have absolutely nothing of any value to offer any discussion .

[Shizzo]

ok fatboy i challenge you to post a pic from any time in your life where you're leaner than I am in my avi.

why should i fk off to a 3rd world country? i actually have assets and own sht in this country. why don't you fk off to a 3rd world country you basically live like a 3rd worlder cleaning toilets anyway.

anyway i'm done talking to you. you are literally the worst poster on here. you have absolutely nothing of any value to offer any discussion .

[Meta-physical]

i think there's some truth to this but not in the way you think.

i think the security services are likely suppressing suicide notes/messages that are being left behind. these terrorists when they commit these crimes usually want to leave some kind of documentation behind as to why they did it etc

like the 7/7 bombers did citing the invasion of afghanistan. but i cannot remember the last time following any of these attacks in any country that any suicide note was reported. because they're all likely to say we did this because your government is killing muslims in foreign lands etc

the authorities don't want us hearing that. they would rather tell us they did it because "they hate our freedom and way of life" blah blah blah

Dear Conker,

There is extensive literature on this and their grievances are pretty well understood. Many academics have devoted years to interviewing individuals involved in various Islamist and Jihadist groups and have documented their research. Scott Atran, Jason Burke, and Thomas Hegghammer have all written important works that you should read. I'd also recommend reading Dr William Polk, the former Harvard Professor and veteran foreign policy expert who has provided invaluable insight into the Middle East/Central Asia and U.S foreign policy (he's highly critical of it but that's only one part of the picture). We also have the former Islamist Maajid Nawaz doing fantastic work to elucidate the ideological factors involved in motivating individuals to commit the atrocities we are witnessing. I don't disagree with you on the failings of recent interventions and the need to examine our own role in creating the conditions for the spread of terrorism, but pointing the finger solely at the West and our security services is erroneous and in bad taste.

[bigmc]

ok fatboy i challenge you to post a pic from any time in your life where you're leaner than I am in my avi.

why should i fk off to a 3rd world country? i actually have assets and own sht in this country. why don't you fk off to a 3rd world country you basically live like a 3rd worlder cleaning toilets anyway.

anyway i'm done talking to you. you are literally the worst poster on here. you have absolutely nothing of any value to offer any discussion .

is the bald midget in your avi you 

no wonder you are  angry

and owning a transit van is hardly assets

go out and get a real job stumpy

[Thin Lizzy]

Dear Conker,

There is extensive literature on this and their grievances are pretty well understood. Many academics have devoted years to interviewing individuals involved in various Islamist and Jihadist groups and have documented their research. Scott Atran, Jason Burke, and Thomas Hegghammer have all written important works that you should read. I'd also recommend reading Dr William Polk, the former Harvard Professor and veteran foreign policy expert who has provided invaluable insight into the Middle East/Central Asia and U.S foreign policy (he's highly critical of it but that's only one part of the picture). We also have the former Islamist Maajid Nawaz doing fantastic work to elucidate the ideological factors involved in motivating individuals to commit the atrocities we are witnessing. I don't disagree with you on the failings of recent interventions and the need to examine our own role in creating the conditions for the spread of terrorism, but pointing the finger solely at the West and our security services is erroneous and in bad taste.

It's all part of a leftist narrative that the West "Whitey" is the source of all evil in the world. However when you look at some of the world's poorest countries, the west has very little involvement:

[Twaddle]

Hahaha he even took his pint.

Dude is like:  "Stay calm and pint on!"   

[Thin Lizzy]

Dude is like:  "Stay calm and pint on!"   

I can respect this. Back in my drinking days, I used to pride myself on my ability to hold onto a bottle or glass regardless of how hard somebody bumped into me.

[Meta-physical]

It's all part of a leftist narrative that the West "Whitey" is the source of all evil in the world. However when you look at some of the world's poorest countries, the west has very little involvement:

Well, there certainly is that narrative being parroted by many online who haven't actually researched anything, but with regard to the West's involvement in various developing countries - they have a history of significant involvement through the selling of arms to regimes they support; conditional lending by the Bretton Woods Institutions who implemented Structural Adjustment Programmes in order to liberalise and privatise trade (which led to crippling debts and an increase in poverty); and the emergence of powerful transnational corporations sourcing materials from various local companies based in developing countries for the purpose of keeping costs down by supporting low workers wages, taking advantage of the increased competition there, avoiding import tariffs, ensuring local markets remain accessible and side-stepping rules and regulations that guarantee basic workers rights.

Of course, those are just the facts but there are many debates within the field of International Development about the extent to which the people in these countries might actually benefit from this in various ways. As for GDP per capita: bear in mind that it shows low-income, middle-income, and high-income countries and is useful to identify the nature of consumption within them, but it doesn't really reveal much beyond that.

[Conker]

Dear Conker,

There is extensive literature on this and their grievances are pretty well understood. Many academics have devoted years to interviewing individuals involved in various Islamist and Jihadist groups and have documented their research. Scott Atran, Jason Burke, and Thomas Hegghammer have all written important works that you should read. I'd also recommend reading Dr William Polk, the former Harvard Professor and veteran foreign policy expert who has provided invaluable insight into the Middle East/Central Asia and U.S foreign policy (he's highly critical of it but that's only one part of the picture). We also have the former Islamist Maajid Nawaz doing fantastic work to elucidate the ideological factors involved in motivating individuals to commit the atrocities we are witnessing. I don't disagree with you on the failings of recent interventions and the need to examine our own role in creating the conditions for the spread of terrorism, but pointing the finger solely at the West and our security services is erroneous and in bad taste.

i'm not really pointing the finger at our security services at all. for the most part in the UK they are doing an excellent job. The former head of MI5 actually predicted at the time that invading iraq would substantially increase the terrorist threat in the UK, you're creating "straw man" positions for me. i also never said the west is "solely" responsible, but i believe our "interventions" have been the biggest driver of the terrorism we are experiencing now.

ISIS grew out of the invasion of iraq (to quote Obama). and we invaded iraq on a false premise. ISIS or ISIS inspired attacks are by far the biggest threat we now face from terrorism. So even if we go on that alone(and we caused more problems than that),  if our actions led to the rise and current influence of ISIS. not really sure how anyone could deny "we" (those responsible for ordering these wars in our name) are not chiefly responsible for what is going now.

one question. do you believe our invasion of iraq is primarily responsible for iraq being in civil war now?

[Meta-physical]

i'm not really pointing the finger at our security services at all. for the most part in the UK they are doing an excellent job. The former head of MI5 actually predicted at the time that invading iraq would substantially increase the terrorist threat in the UK, you're creating "straw man" positions for me. i also never said the west is "solely" responsible, but i believe our "interventions" have been the biggest driver of the terrorism we are experiencing now.

ISIS grew out of the invasion of iraq (to quote Obama). and we invaded iraq on a false premise. ISIS or ISIS inspired attacks are by far the biggest threat we now face from terrorism. So even if we go on that alone(and we caused more problems than that),  if our actions led to the rise and current influence of ISIS. not really sure how anyone could deny "we" (those responsible for ordering these wars in our name) are not chiefly responsible for what is going now.

No, I understand, and it's not my intention to attack straw men - I agree with a lot of what you are saying with regard to foreign policy; I was referring to your comment that the security services were suppressing information. The information and facts are there to be read. Various heads of special forces and intelligence services have vehemently condemned the short-sighted actions of our interventions, too. I don't think you're an Islamist apologist - you've stated quite clearly that you condemn terrorism - I'm just merely suggesting that there's a lot of works out there that you may like to read as it will enhance your understanding. I think you're being attacked here largely because people are talking past one-another, and it does read as though you are skipping over the ideological factors involved which are not related to the West. Obviously it's going to be hard to have reasonable dialogue right now when emotions here are so high. I've been really angered the past week with what's happened in Manchester and London, so I'm sure others are feeling the same and that's likely why these threads are so highly charged. It's also worth noting that in the Manchester bombing thread, you weren't the one who said that 'you literally didn't care'. Two others did and those comments seemed to have been entirely glossed over.

With regard to your Iraq question: Yes, I do. I fought in a few of these conflicts when I was younger, but I always argued that Iraq would be a disaster and I took part in the marches against it before it happened. The author that I mentioned, William Polk, wrote a brilliant book on the failings of that intervention titled Understanding Iraq. The Chilcot report also vindicated the views of all of those who opposed the war on the grounds that it would lead to severe consequences unless a feasible political solution was implemented.