Author Topic: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit  (Read 22341 times)

Vince B

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2018, 12:44:13 PM »
In 2018 I think it is long overdue to collect and discard ALL barbells and dumbbells into a metal recycling dump!

wes

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2018, 01:05:06 PM »
In 2018 I think it is long overdue to collect and discard ALL barbells and dumbbells into a metal recycling dump!
After you pry them from my cold dead hands!!  LOL  :)

tres_taco_combo

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2018, 01:20:12 PM »
the interesting thing about training

training with free weights is more fun anyways too. bringing the heat with the weights in more enjoyable then cable crossovers.

i will say this... it is hard to bring the heat all the time so long breaks off, Heavy Duty training is the only way to do it long term.

I love to train heavy/low volume.


Henda

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2018, 02:30:41 PM »
In 2018 I think it is long overdue to collect and discard ALL barbells and dumbbells into a metal recycling dump!

That’s exactly where your supinatior should have been 20+ years ago

Coach is Back!

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2018, 02:39:21 PM »
In 2018 I think it is long overdue to collect and discard ALL barbells and dumbbells into a metal recycling dump!

Back for another beating? You're like the strawman of the G&O.

IRON CROSS

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #80 on: December 22, 2018, 02:57:02 PM »

 With machines so much is dependant on the design. There are a lot of crappy machines out there.


"Famed" BaaZills Biceps Suppinator is 1 of them  8)

WalterWhite

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #81 on: December 22, 2018, 03:38:06 PM »
Thanks WW........those top two pics are from Central City Gym in my hometown of Springfield Mass.

The middle pic is one I put online from my personal collection.

Great times with ball busting workouts and lots of big name contest winners when Spfld. was a veritable hotbed of bodybuilding and powerlifting as well as having 3 World Armwrestiling Champions.

Was there a Golds downtown? I remember training at one gym in Springfield in he late 80's then a warehouse gym opened in Ludlow. The guy who won teenage nationals worked the desk in Ludlow and I could swear Vic or some other guy who really popped was working at Golds.

pellius

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #82 on: December 22, 2018, 04:02:21 PM »
1)  "All a muscle does is contract":  Yes but the stabilizer muscles don't contract in a machine.  Example: Doing military presses with free weights works not only the shoulders but every upper body muscle including the whole core.  Even legs are used in holding up the body and extra weight.

2) Financial incentive for Jones is totally relevant.  Jones spent thousands of hours building his machines to sell to gyms.  Do you think he's going to tell people "my machines aren't as effective as free weights but they are a pretty blue color so pay me thousands for each one."  Also, Jones results were never replicated by anyone else.  Again, no powerlifter, olympic weight lifter, NFL, NHL or track and field power athlete works exclusively with machines only but there are thousands who use just free weights.

3) Jones was a genius in marketing but not in science.  Having a cam that puts stress on the muscle for the full range and eliminating gravity sounds great but has no effect on real athletes.  Athletes compete on a mat or field that has gravity and their muscles have to move in all directions including circular motions.  Most of Jones's presentations were to medical doctors who knew nothing about working muscles or engineering so he could say anything he wanted and it sounded good to them.  He also insulted their intelligence probably because he had an inferiority complex over being the only non doctor in his family and the least educated.

4)  As I said before take 2 people (preferably twins), put one on a free weights only routine and the other on a Nautilus only workout routine and who is going to be bigger, stronger and more athletic in the long run?  It's not even close.  The workout routine Jones's advocated doing full body and no rest between exercises is terrible as well but that's a whole different matter.

The first point, which I referred to earlier in response to another post you made I will address later as it is more involved.

I made it clear that financial success was and is a measure of success of a product or idea. I just wanted to dispute the notion that Jones was motivated primarily by profit. He was already rich and has been involved in a variety of projects throughout his life. Weider was also motivated by profit, and I believe more so than Jones, in promoting his line of equipment, i.e., free weights.

And there are examples of many who use Jones' training principles. Viator, Mentzer, and Yates being the most famous. Of course, nobody follows any program exactly as prescribed but puts there own tweaks into it. Even Jones incorporated the barbell squat in Casey Viator's routine during the Colorado experiment.

And you're right that no great athletes have been produced using machines only but that would be because no athletes trains exclusively on machines only, just like no athletes train exclusively with free weights. Even during the 70s they still had leg curl, leg extension machines, cable rows/pulldowns, seated/standing calf machines, leg press...

Jones was not a marketing genius. Everyone in the iron game knows who Joe Weider is and I have not met anybody under the age of forty that has ever heard of Jones and his development of the Nautilus Machines. He was a very difficult person to deal with and I think this hindered him from becoming even more successful and well know.

He was an extraordinary engineer and extremely intelligent. All the modern machines now being used are based on his basic designs: using cams for variable resistance, full range of motion, muscle isolation.

Now there is one point that you brought up that I can't really dispute but believe simply by faith and intuition. I believe, and it makes sense, that a muscle is better trained throughout its full range, ideally with a resistance that matches it's strength curve. A Nautilus curl seems to me intuitively superior to the barbell or dumbbell curl because of it's variable full range resistance. But does it really matter? Great arms have been built using just barbells and dumbbells. It is impossible to measure any difference in athletic performance when comparing both types of training but I would suspect it really wouldn't make much of a real world difference.

The best practical advantage I can make for the use of machines over free weights for the recreational fitness fanatic is that it is easier and safer. I want someone to be involved in weight training and fitness for their entire lives. Making it more enjoyable will make this more likely. I mean, even I, who has been training for over 45 years straight, sometimes avoid an exercise I was going to do because I didn't want to unload, load, and reload those plates. I just want to stick a pin in and get to it. Sorry, but I'm almost 60 years old now.

robcguns

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #83 on: December 22, 2018, 04:07:55 PM »
In 2018 I think it is long overdue to collect and discard ALL barbells and dumbbells into a metal recycling dump!

Barbells and dumbbells are all anyone ever needs.Some machines are good if injured or tired but nothing beats raw iron imo.

chaos

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #84 on: December 22, 2018, 05:32:57 PM »
In 2018 I think it is long overdue to collect and discard ALL barbells and dumbbells into a metal recycling dump!
Serious question, have you ever been tested for any age related mental impairments?
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

IRON CROSS

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #85 on: December 22, 2018, 09:06:56 PM »
In 2018 I think it is long overdue to collect and discard ALL barbells and dumbbells into a metal recycling dump!


Booz is talking  ::)

Royalty

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #86 on: December 22, 2018, 09:36:30 PM »
In 2018 I think it is long overdue to collect and discard ALL barbells and dumbbells into a metal recycling dump!

That is possibly the most feminine sounding statement in the history of weightlifting

IRON CROSS

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #87 on: December 23, 2018, 01:09:12 AM »
That is possibly the most feminine sounding statement in the history of weightlifting


 ;D ;D ;D

pellius

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #88 on: December 23, 2018, 01:19:16 AM »
Serious question, have you ever been tested for any age related mental impairments?

Yes, and yes... wait -- are you talking to me?

pellius

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #89 on: December 23, 2018, 01:46:58 AM »
Arthur Jones never bad mouthed free weights. He attempted to improve upon it. The vast majority of his writings was not in promoting his Nautilus equipment but to promote his style of training. High intensity, relatively low frequency, and low duration. This could all be achieved with barbells and dumbells.

"It was obvious to me that the barbell and dumbbell were almost miracles compared to all other forms of exercise -- calisthenics and the stuff they had us doing in school. These were worse than worthless."

"A Nautilus machine is nothing more or less than an improved barbell, a logical barbell, a rational barbell."

-- Arthur Jones

Bevo

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #90 on: December 23, 2018, 02:49:17 AM »
Thanks WW........those top two pics are from Central City Gym in my hometown of Springfield Mass.

The middle pic is one I put online from my personal collection.

Great times with ball busting workouts and lots of big name contest winners when Spfld. was a veritable hotbed of bodybuilding and powerlifting as well as having 3 World Armwrestiling Champions.

For fapping material?

Mr.1derful

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #91 on: December 23, 2018, 03:12:03 AM »
That is possibly the most feminine sounding statement in the history of weightlifting

It has to be the soy talking.

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #92 on: December 23, 2018, 04:06:50 AM »
In 2018 I think it is long overdue to collect and discard ALL barbells and dumbbells into a metal recycling dump!
Yes, they would be much better off with your bicep machine. ::)

oldtimer1

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #93 on: December 23, 2018, 07:51:02 AM »
Arthur Jones was a frail little man most of his life. Tired of seeing a picture of him for a very brief time in his life where he had some muscle. He was under 150lbs most of his life. He couldn't run around a block without getting tired when he was past 40 I bet.

 Many of his machines were outstanding. Just a couple of notes. He didn't invent the cam for variable resistance on an exercise machine. The guy's name escapes me but when it comes to me I will alter this post. He didn't invent pre exhaust. Kennedy was the first to write of it. He didn't come up with the idea for selectorized plates for his Nautilus. It was Bill Pearl who told him to put it on his machines like the ones on Universal machines.

 One thing for sure the body does not work in isolation of body parts. It works as a systemic unit.  Doing a clean and jerk is far more beneficial to your body for increasing athletic attributes like speed, power and strength than training muscles in attempted isolation. The problem with Nautilus is everything is exercising seated and in isolation.  When you do something as simple as a barbell curl your calves are tensing and adjusting to keep your balance. Your thighs are firing for the same reason. Your back is working to keep you upright and stabilized along with other muscles. Yes, your bicep is getting worked.

 I also disagree with Jones saying body weight exercises are worthless.  You turn the most built steroid guy into a mess quick with 20 minute body weight exercise session.

tres_taco_combo

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #94 on: December 23, 2018, 08:00:51 AM »


 I also disagree with Jones saying body weight exercises are worthless.  You turn the most built steroid guy into a mess quick with 20 minute body weight exercise session.

most big bbers cannot do many dips, pull ups, quality push ups. - that is for sure

tres_taco_combo

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #95 on: December 23, 2018, 08:03:52 AM »
nautilus leg extension machine is single best equipment machines imho

powerhouse gym in Joliet, IL had one back in the 1990s I miss that gym

Van_Bilderass

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #96 on: December 23, 2018, 10:09:18 AM »

 One thing for sure the body does not work in isolation of body parts. It works as a systemic unit.  Doing a clean and jerk is far more beneficial to your body for increasing athletic attributes like speed, power and strength than training muscles in attempted isolation. The problem with Nautilus is everything is exercising seated and in isolation.  When you do something as simple as a barbell curl your calves are tensing and adjusting to keep your balance. Your thighs are firing for the same reason. Your back is working to keep you upright and stabilized along with other muscles. Yes, your bicep is getting worked.

 I also disagree with Jones saying body weight exercises are worthless.  You turn the most built steroid guy into a mess quick with 20 minute body weight exercise session.

What if practising your chosen sport is enough to coordinate the movements etc? I.e. you lift weights only to get muscles stronger period. I know some coaches do not believe in mimicking the athletes chosen sport during weight lifting, even with regard to exercise duration, you train low reps even if the athlete's sport is pretty endurance based

I'd like The Coache's thoughts on this. Should weightlifting movements mimic the sport's movements to have good transfer?

pellius

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #97 on: December 23, 2018, 10:19:53 AM »
most big bbers cannot do many dips, pull ups, quality push ups. - that is for sure

What? Maybe not pullups because they're so heavy but you routinely see bbers do dips, not only weighing 250 llbs and more but also with dbs and chains hanging from their body.

They don't bother doing pushups because it's so easy, unless it's to warm up or pump up.

The Scott

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #98 on: December 23, 2018, 10:20:48 AM »
I had a football coach in college once tell me that all else (e.g., ability) being equal, the stronger athlete will win. Of course this is probably more in line with individual sporting events and not team based ones but he was probably right.  I used DBs and cables to train shoulders and arms this morning.  

I prefer to train H.I.T. but my reality right now is I cannot deal with heavier weights and so have decreased weight and increased reps accordingly.

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Re: Kevin speaks the truth why todays guys look like shit
« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2018, 11:03:33 AM »
What if practising your chosen sport is enough to coordinate the movements etc? I.e. you lift weights only to get muscles stronger period. I know some coaches do not believe in mimicking the athletes chosen sport during weight lifting, even with regard to exercise duration, you train low reps even if the athlete's sport is pretty endurance based

I'd like The Coache's thoughts on this. Should weightlifting movements mimic the sport's movements to have good transfer?

I think I said in this thread that O-lifts are overrated for sport, there are other more efficient ways to get an athlete just as if not more explosive. The only reason why I teach and implement o-lifts in my own schools program is for time constraints but if done properly, you get more bang for your buck when I have 45-50 athletes in my weight room and then all I program is what I would say are the two most important lifts, Power Clean and Clean Pulls.

I don't do 1RM's because I'm looking for more efficiency while trying to perfect technique. I never go beyond 5 reps staying with in the atp/cp energy system.

As to your point about practicing your chosen sport for movement, you're dead on. You CANNOT mimic a sport-specific movement in a weight room. A strength and conditioning mentor of mine said it perfectly, "The weight room is the facilitator to movement"

Our job is to get the athlete stronger in all areas (joints, stabilizers, flexibility, etc) that allows the athlete to move better, with power on the field with limited to no injuries. As far as speed (I personally think I have one of the best speed programs in the country per position) my philosophy has always been speed starts in the weight room, the technique is perfected on the field (movement)

We move, in general, multi-joint and never in isolation. When I, for example, program a bicep curl, it's usually in the way of a hammer curl, not for aesthetics but rather to help keep the elbows healthy. I won't back squat a QB with a regular straight bar because I want to protect his external rotation so we either us a yoke or front squat with a cross grip instead of a clean grip to protect his wrists. I always pair a pre-hab exercise with a main lift...

ex: 1A) Back Squat
      1B) TKE (Terminal knee extension)

Like I said (and you) you can't duplicate a sport movement in the weight room.