Venezuela was my home, socialism destroyed it. Slowly, it will destroy America

[Straw Man]

Are you really an idiot, or do you just play one on the Internet?

Did you read what my post was in response to?

I don't give a fuck what you're responding to

I'm asking if you stealing federal funds and giving them to your family is what you think socialism is

Yes or No?

[loco]

I don't give a fuck what you're responding to

I'm asking if you stealing federal funds and giving them to your family is what you think socialism is

Yes or No?

Had you read what my post was in response to, you wouldn't be asking me that question.

It's not my job to fix stupid.

[mazrim]

It's amazing the amount of times that someone on here can continuously barrage a poster (Grasping at Loco) and still have a 100% success rate in making themselves look like the fool. That's talent...

[el numero uno]

The people who usually say socialism is so great usually live in a capitalist country with an excellent standard of living while those from the 'wonderful' socialist countries are trying to escape to a capitalist country.

Spot on.

[el numero uno]

As an educated latino who actually experienced this so called Socialism, I feel qualified to chime in.

- Chavez rose to power in 1999. A few years later he started calling his goverment "Socialism of the 21st century". This term became widely popular in South America, although confusing for anyone who actually knew something about the Soviet Union, Mao's China, Cuba, etc.

- This version of Socialism fits the description of what a Social Democracy is supposed to be: Private property is allowed, but the goverment has a huge role in the country's economy, and one of it's priorities is to make sure that wealth is redistributed. Social justice and equality are the main pilars.

- South America was in love with Socialism (most people don't use the appendage "of the 21st century".) Argentina with the Kirchners, Ecuador with Correa, Bolivia with Evo, and Brazil with Lula.

- Most of these countries have something in common: they're oil dependents (oil products accounts for 90% of the exports in Venezuela, keep this mind as is highly important).

- These Socialist rulers had something no previous goverments had: oil prices went from $20 to $100 and beyond in just a couple of years.



- This gigantic infusion of money lifted millions out of poverty. Social programs were booming, subsidies and goverment spending were out of this world. People were happy and supported their socialist leaders.

- Even with high oil prices, the systems were not sustainable. Also, the rich never had enough money to cover this increased spending, as the rulers once claimed.

- Oil prices started to fall. These goverments had no option but to increase taxes on the middle class, and to acquire debt. Most irresponsible ones chose to print money to cover their expenses (as you may know, this leads to inflation).

- The socialist dream is over. Nowadays, Ecuador, Argentina and Brazil said bye to the left (Ecuador actually didn't, but the president did). Bolivia still has Evo, although not as popular as before.

- Venezuela is an absolute chaos, it's GDP has decreased by 50% in the last years, and inflation reached 1 million per cent in 2018. Roughly, 15% of the population have left the country. People are starving, and Caracas has become one of the most dangerous cities of the world. The country was in total blackout for the last 6 days.

- A special mention for censorship and repression. Too many cases to mention here. You can Google them is you want.

Conclusion: this type of Socialism didn't work in South America.

[SOMEPARTS]

I read it

you said he stole public funds and kept most of it for himself and his family

Is that socialism?

That's what always happens in socialism. A very few in power with everything...much more concentrated than the "evil 1% capitalist pigs" that the left blames now. History much?

[Thin Lizzy]

As an educated latino who actually experienced this so called Socialism, I feel qualified to chime in.

- Chavez rose to power in 1999. A few years later he started calling his goverment "Socialism of the 21st century". This term became widely popular in South America, although confusing for anyone who actually knew something about the Soviet Union, Mao's China, Cuba, etc.

- This version of Socialism fits the description of what a Social Democracy is supposed to be: Private property is allowed, but the goverment has a huge role in the country's economy, and one of it's priorities is to make sure that wealth is redistributed. Social justice and equality are the main pilars.

- South America was in love with Socialism (most people don't use the appendage "of the 21st century".) Argentina with the Kirchners, Ecuador with Correa, Bolivia with Evo, and Brazil with Lula.

- Most of these countries have something in common: they're oil dependents (oil products accounts for 90% of the exports in Venezuela, keep this mind as is highly important).

- These Socialist rulers had something no previous goverments had: oil prices went from $20 to $100 and beyond in just a couple of years.



- This gigantic infusion of money lifted millions out of poverty. Social programs were booming, subsidies and goverment spending were out of this world. People were happy and supported their socialist leaders.

- Even with high oil prices, the systems were not sustainable. Also, the rich never had enough money to cover this increased spending, as the rulers once claimed.

- Oil prices started to fall. These goverments had no option but to increase taxes on the middle class, and to acquire debt. Most irresponsible ones chose to print money to cover their expenses (as you may know, this leads to inflation).

- The socialist dream is over. Nowadays, Ecuador, Argentina and Brazil said bye to the left (Ecuador actually didn't, but the president did). Bolivia still has Evo, although not as popular as before.

- Venezuela is an absolute chaos, it's GDP has decreased by 50% in the last years, and inflation reached 1 million per cent in 2018. Roughly, 15% of the population have left the country. People are starving, and Caracas has become one of the most dangerous cities of the world. The country was in total blackout for the last 6 days.

- A special mention for censorship and repression. Too many cases to mention here. You can Google them is you want.

Conclusion: this type of Socialism didn't work in South America.

Is Chile not the most capitalist country in SA?



https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-richest-countries-in-south-america.html

Chile is the richest country in South America by GDP per capita and Brazil is the wealthiest in terms of GDP

[el numero uno]

Is Chile not the most capitalist country in SA?



https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-richest-countries-in-south-america.html

Chile is the richest country in South America by GDP per capita and Brazil is the wealthiest in terms of GDP

Yes, you are correct.

However, they're not doing as good as most pro market individuals would have expected. It seems like they also heavily rely on the exportation of raw materials.

I think we can conclude Capitalism by itself is not enough to become rich. Still, whem choosing between an imperfect system, and a failed one, the decision should be obvious.

[loco]

Ah, the subject no one wants to pay attention to.

Did socialism ruin the Nordic countries?

National health care topples a Nordic government

March 14, 2019

https://blog.acton.org/archives/107193-national-health-care-topples-a-nordic-government.html

[Hypertrophy]

National health care topples a Nordic government

March 14, 2019

https://blog.acton.org/archives/107193-national-health-care-topples-a-nordic-government.html

Glad you posted that. Most of the left wingnuts think Finland or the Scandinavian countries are some kind of utopia. They are all just living off borrowed time. The population of Finland is about 5.5 million- about the size of Minnesota. It's a nothing country in terms of world politics. The Russians could roll in tomorrow and take it- Finnish riflemen are't going to make much of a dent in an armored division.

 I do business with a tech manufacturer in Helsinki and have been there quite a few times. They are one of the shining stars in Finland and 1 year ago they got bought by the Chinese, lol. Guaranteed the tech will leave Finland in the next year.

 No way is Finland a wonderland. Half the time everyone is drunk at first chance. The government put massive taxes on booze to try to stop the nationwide alcoholism problem but they can't stop people from going to Estonia by ferry every weekend and loading up on liquor.

Finland is a classic case of "running out of other people's money"

[IRON CROSS]

Glad you posted that. Most of the left wingnuts think Finland or the Scandinavian countries are some kind of utopia. They are all just living off borrowed time. The population of Finland is about 5.5 million- about the size of Minnesota. It's a nothing country in terms of world politics. The Russians could roll in tomorrow and take it- Finnish riflemen are't going to make much of a dent in an armored division

1945 Uncle Stalin took 15% of Finland 

[Hypertrophy]

1945 Uncle Stalin took 15% of Finland  

lol - and the Russians now just buy it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/31/world/europe/sakkiluoto-finland-russian-military.html

[IRON CROSS]

lol - and the Russians now just buy it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/31/world/europe/sakkiluoto-finland-russian-military.html

Long text ,Finland is cold & dark place.

[Slapper]

Russia?

Millions assassinated, Ukrainians annihilated, a country with immense natural resources and all they could achieve is total collapse in less than 40 years.

Yes, socialism works. MY ASS.

[Slapper]

Just wait.  Birth rates drop, thus not enough new working people to tax in order to pay for free crap, thus quality of free crap greatly drops, so borders open hoping educated hard working immigrants will fill the gap, but instead get uneducated free loading rapists, therefore Scandinavia turns into shiitte hole.  You just wait.  Math doesn't just stop working in Scandinavia.

Declining birthrates, ballooning debt, et cetera.

The buck stops when the bill's gotta be paid.

Only then do you find out that that which was sold to you as "free" wasn't free after all.

[Slapper]

Don’t believe anything the corporate media and our corporate-controlled government have to shove down our throats about Venezuela.  It is propaganda to justify yet another regime change war.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ii5MlQgGXyz

You know what's worse than the Maduros and Stalins of this world? The friendly media outlets that cover up their fuckups in the name of ideology.

We will NEVER get rid of the communism garbage until most media STOP writing positively about it. Until these motherfuckers, who in my opinion should be shot on the spot because the acquiescence they help create kills thousands of human beings, stop printing vile FALSE shit, communists are going to roam this world spreading false shit to populations that have no idea how big of a bus was parked up their ass until there are thousands of assassinations on the table, the currency is turned to shit, the main export has been decimated, thousands of human beings put in jail, et cetera; all the while the "leaders" spare no minute blaming "the west" or "corporations" or "the gringos" or "capitalism" for what is the OBVIOUS collapse of the communist system, AGAIN. For the fucking 54th time!!!!

That ANYYYYYYY American media outlet covers Maduro's excesses with any degree of positivity is irritating as fuck.

[Slapper]

[...]This version of Socialism fits the description of what a Social Democracy is supposed to be: Private property is allowed, but the goverment has a huge role in the country's economy, and one of it's priorities is to make sure that wealth is redistributed.[...]

This is not true. Private property isn't and wasn't "allowed," it is tolerated... for now. The reason I say this is because there are plenty of videos out there of Chavez  expropriating private property on national TV:

People were OK with it and were even jubilant about the process until it came to their towns and neighborhoods and then blocks and then... we all know what happens. Worth noting is that this is basically the reason that Stalin decided to kill 7 million Ukrainians back in the mid 30s, they opposed his expropriation and collectivization initiatives and they were killed (Holodomor). As simple as that.

As far as the second point goes... and, by the way, I'm not saying that me debating the points presented means I am insinuating that you are in agreement with them, I'm merely presenting my disagreement based on what I know; if you look at any of the socio-economic indicators for, for example, Cuba, you will quickly be able to see that Cuba is NOT a country in which wealth has been "redistributed". But this hasn't anything to do with the Castros or Maduros of this world and all to do with communism itself, a major flaw of communism: that 1) wealth MUST be redistributed even though wealth is a relative term (meaning wealth to me means health, love and good education for my kids while it may be a Ferrari, a mansion and a yacht for someone else) and 2) communists have always tried their utmost to separate the implementation of their version of communism from the results of that implementation. Meaning their intentions are ALWAYS good, even when thousands of people die in the process and the country in which his/her version of communism are implemented collapses into what is essentially a medieval society with cars.

It is now time that WE all call them out on this and whenever the Maduros or the Maduro's "ink bitches" (friendly media outlets) apologize for failed policies that kill thousands that we ALL call them out and say "NO! YOU DID intend on killing thousands of people!".

[el numero uno]

This is not true. Private property isn't and wasn't "allowed," it is tolerated... for now. The reason I say this is because there are plenty of videos out there of Chavez  expropriating private property on national TV:

People were OK with it and were even jubilant about the process until it came to their towns and neighborhoods and then blocks and then... we all know what happens. Worth noting is that this is basically the reason that Stalin decided to kill 7 million Ukrainians back in the mid 30s, they opposed his expropriation and collectivization initiatives and they were killed (Holodomor). As simple as that.

As far as the second point goes... and, by the way, I'm not saying that me debating the points presented means I am insinuating that you are in agreement with them, I'm merely presenting my disagreement based on what I know; if you look at any of the socio-economic indicators for, for example, Cuba, you will quickly be able to see that Cuba is NOT a country in which wealth has been "redistributed". But this hasn't anything to do with the Castros or Maduros of this world and all to do with communism itself, a major flaw of communism: that 1) wealth MUST be redistributed even though wealth is a relative term (meaning wealth to me means health, love and good education for my kids while it may be a Ferrari, a mansion and a yacht for someone else) and 2) communists have always tried their utmost to separate the implementation of their version of communism from the results of that implementation. Meaning their intentions are ALWAYS good, even when thousands of people die in the process and the country in which his/her version of communism are implemented collapses into what is essentially a medieval society with cars.

It is now time that WE all call them out on this and whenever the Maduros or the Maduro's "ink bitches" (friendly media outlets) apologize for failed policies that kill thousands that we ALL call them out and say "NO! YOU DID intend on killing thousands of people!".

Keep in mind that I'm talking about Socialism of the 21st century as a whole, not just Venezuela.

Yes, Chávez's aggressiveness against private property was disgusting, and Maduro is not different. Other countries however, weren't as bad as Venezuela when it comes to private property. I'm not saying they were good overall, I'm saying that they usually didn't attack private property.

Venezuelans are to blame for the collapse of their country. They supported Chávez goverment for way too long. It's culture is fucked up, it's about being "sabido", that's it, taking advantage of other people is seem as something to be proud of.

--------------------------

Since you mention Cuba.

Cuba's numbers are not reliable at all. They lie about the statistics of pretty much everything. Some experts have claimed that Cuba's GDP is actually half of what the goverment claims it is. This makes a lot of sense. Cuba's regime claims a GDP higher than most south american countries, yet anecdotically, Cuba's poverty rate seems to be way higher than most SA countries.

[Slapper]

Keep in mind that I'm talking about Socialism of the 21st century as a whole, not just Venezuela.

I honest to God do not know what the difference is. Socialism is a democracy-compatible form of communism that ALWAYS ends up in a revolutionary process. It just hasn't happened yet because socialists always do a terrible job economically so they always get voted out of office before they get to the revolutionary part. Socialism was conceived for the same reason the New Testament was conceived: to keep out the nasty shit that would make a person NOT want to become that which The Book wants you to become.

Yes, Chávez's aggressiveness against private property was disgusting, and Maduro is not different. Other countries however, weren't as bad as Venezuela when it comes to private property. I'm not saying they were good overall, I'm saying that they usually didn't attack private property.

That's not true at all. I know of NOT A SINGLE communist country that hasn't expropriated a large part of people's savings, be it in the form of property, saved money, outlandish tax rates or hyperinflation. You see, people get fixated on one thing (houses) and they can't wrap their head around that those in power can easily and slowly take all you have without you even noticing it is being taken. In the case of socialist/communist countries, if straight-out expropriations are out of the question, then they usually take the form of exorbitant tax rates on the richest citizens or the government may chose to print money out of thin air and hyper inflate the currency to the point that you have to add a 0 to the currency every day. Either way THE PEOPLE of the country end up suffering, rich and poor. Of course, the Master Communist Plan is never accomplished because the rich classes, seeing the tsunami of bullshit coming in their direction, grab their money and leave, leaving all fiscal inertia on the shoulders of the middle and lower classes, which quickly collapse because once the outlandish tax rates come out of the genie bottle, they ain't going back in the bottle until total parity communist pseudo-goal is met, which is NEVER. So, effectively, you have outlandish tax rates being implemented to a gradually shrinking middle class which eventually realizes the huge mistake that communism represents and starts moving their hard-earned money out, further worsening the hyper inflationary pressure that usually follows the all-free policies these communist MORONS implement. THIS is precisely what is taking place in Venezuela right now.

Venezuelans are to blame for the collapse of their country. They supported Chávez government for way too long. It's culture is fucked up, it's about being "sabido", that's it, taking advantage of other people is seem as something to be proud of.

Absolutely. It's Venezuelans' fault. People have to understand that if you vote for socialism/communist YOU WILL LOSE IT ALL. EVERYTHING.  

Since you mention Cuba.

Cuba's numbers are not reliable at all. They lie about the statistics of pretty much everything. Some experts have claimed that Cuba's GDP is actually half of what the goverment claims it is. This makes a lot of sense. Cuba's regime claims a GDP higher than most south american countries, yet anecdotically, Cuba's poverty rate seems to be way higher than most SA countries.

I agree. Cuba's numbers are cooked. That is another nasty "side effect" of communism: the lack of credible independent information. Cuba is literally a shit hole. Mothers forcing their daughters into prostitution so that they end up meeting someone from a capitalist country and leave the shithole behind.

I, for the life of me, DO NOT even begin to comprehend how communism or socialism are even allowed, much less implemented. It's like implementing a feudal system. We already know it doesn't work so... why try it?  

[el numero uno]

I honest to God do not know what the difference is. Socialism is a democracy-compatible form of communism that ALWAYS ends up in a revolutionary process. It just hasn't happened yet because socialists always do a terrible job economically so they always get voted out of office before they get to the revolutionary part. Socialism was conceived for the same reason the New Testament was conceived: to keep out the nasty shit that would make a person NOT want to become that which The Book wants you to become.

That's not true at all. I know of NOT A SINGLE communist country that hasn't expropriated a large part of people's savings, be it in the form of property, saved money, outlandish tax rates or hyperinflation. You see, people get fixated on one thing (houses) and they can't wrap their head around that those in power can easily and slowly take all you have without you even noticing it is being taken. In the case of socialist/communist countries, if straight-out expropriations are out of the question, then they usually take the form of exorbitant tax rates on the richest citizens or the government may chose to print money out of thin air and hyper inflate the currency to the point that you have to add a 0 to the currency every day. Either way THE PEOPLE of the country end up suffering, rich and poor. Of course, the Master Communist Plan is never accomplished because the rich classes, seeing the tsunami of bullshit coming in their direction, grab their money and leave, leaving all fiscal inertia on the shoulders of the middle and lower classes, which quickly collapse because once the outlandish tax rates come out of the genie bottle, they ain't going back in the bottle until total parity communist pseudo-goal is met, which is NEVER. So, effectively, you have outlandish tax rates being implemented to a gradually shrinking middle class which eventually realizes the huge mistake that communism represents and starts moving their hard-earned money out, further worsening the hyper inflationary pressure that usually follows the all-free policies these communist MORONS implement. THIS is precisely what is taking place in Venezuela right now.

We're having a communication breakdown here.

Let me put it this way...

Socialism of the 21st century = Venezuela with Chavez and Maduro + Argentina with the Kirchners + Ecuador with Rafael Correa + Bolivia with Evo Morales + Brazil with Lula da Silva.

Wikipedia agrees with me on this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_of_the_21st_century

[oldtimer1]

Tired of liberals pointing to Scandinavian countries as a socialist success. No, they are not truly socialist but close enough for liberal's yearnings. One thing for sure all the "free" stuff they hand out has a price tag. A price tag of a 50% being gone from your pay check. 20% at the cash register. $6 a gallon gas.  A severe penalty if you aspire to make money having a successful business or a high level college degree like a mechanic engineer in severe pay check taxes brackets.

What they have now is a severe decline in birth rate as they invite unknown Muslims to come in and live for free in apartments with free monthly money, free cell phones, free utility assistance, free food buying assistance and free health care that goes up with each kid they have and they are having a lot.

On a side note the "free" health care in England and Canada is horrific. Think you can get a bicep tear or a rotator cuff operation promptly?  No, it will be refused or the wait will take in some cases years. People of means in those countries come to America for their operations knowing socialized medicine is crap.

[falco]

The biggest problem is the moronic dictator. Former Chavez driver. A goon.

[Slapper]

We're having a communication breakdown here.

Let me put it this way...

Socialism of the 21st century = Venezuela with Chavez and Maduro + Argentina with the Kirchners + Ecuador with Rafael Correa + Bolivia with Evo Morales + Brazil with Lula da Silva.

Wikipedia agrees with me on this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_of_the_21st_century

I'm not disagreeing with you dude, we're in agreement. The only part where my opinion takes on (sort of) a different direction is in the socialist vs. communist tag. What I am saying is that a socialist is the same thing as a communist. The only difference being the fact that socialists initially apply a light version of communism (in stages) to the population and, once they effectively take over, deploy all the communistic tools known to man. They do this because they know that no one in their right mind would vote as communist into office with the intent on applying a communist regime.

What I am also saying is that there isn't a single case in which the socialist model ended up becoming communistic because socialism ALWAYS fucks up the economy so bad that their candidates get voted out of office before they go full communist (production in the hands of the workers, massive expropriation initiatives, abolition of all private property, et cetera) on people.

[Randomum]

Socialism/Communism is a plague that must be stopped.

But our country is also in danger because of all of this deficit spending which both Obama, and Trump are hugely responsible for. Undertaking new programs like the wall, which i support will push this even higher at completion. I hope hyperinflation doesn't affect us, but how long have we artificially kept inflation down.....

[Griffith]

Socialism/Communism is a plague that must be stopped.

But our country is also in danger because of all of this deficit spending which both Obama, and Trump are hugely responsible for. Undertaking new programs like the wall, which i support will push this even higher at completion. I hope hyperinflation doesn't affect us, but how long have we artificially kept inflation down.....

As long as the US dollar remains the main currency used for global business and oil, then they can keep printing more money and have higher debt with far lower repercussions than a regular country. However, they will have to start reining this in as it can't continue forever, especially if the US dollar becomes less used internationally.

China and Russia are both working to try and replace the US dollar, especially for purchases of oil, which would hurt the US. And for what it's worth, much of the Third World will join them as most have no love for the West. China is already spreading its influence across Africa.