Author Topic: Why Lee Haney is superior grand master of training compared to Dorian Yates  (Read 13937 times)

pellius

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Where did you find that definition of intensity?

Wouldn’t we all agree that to increase intensity you would need to either do:
(1) More work in same amount of time
(2) Same amount of work in less time

Work = force x distance

So it’s easy to see how to do more work:
(1) Heavier force moved the same distance
(2) Same force moved over a longer distance

In this instance force is the “weight” you’re lifting and distance is the number of “reps” you’re doing.

If you think about it, it’s no more difficult than that.

Both definitions are valid. That was another point that was counter-intuitive that Arthur Jones made. That given a specific training protocol, that if you do it in less time than you did it before then it was more intense. Someone protested that if a workout took 25 minutes but you did it in 20 it was a better more intense workout? Yes, it is, the same amount of work done in less time. Many conflate duration with intensity. Training long with training hard when they are in many ways mutually exclusive.

For our purposes here, not getting into overly scientific or technical jargon or theories, I define intensity for the sake of this discussion as the amount of effort one puts in performing a single set. If you can move a weight for 8 reps and can no longer do a 9th strick rep, then it should be obvious that the initial reps are easy and don't require a huge amount of effort. By the time you barely eke out that 8th rep you have increase intensity of effort much more when compared to the first rep. If you continue with further intensity variables: forced reps, negatives... then momentary intensity is further increased.

This one specific definition. The others: less rest, more work in the same time period, are other intensity variables. Of course, a major factor that is often overlooked and almost impossible to measure is cognitive effort. The will and drive to push yourself to your limit. Many believe that they are pushing themselves but your body is always going to try to convince you've done enough as it wants to avoid pain. You just think to yourself that you pushed that weight as much as you can and just couldn't get that 9th rep no matter what so you conclude that was maximum intensity. But if someone offered you a million dollars or Arthur Jones (as he was reputed to do) having a gun to your head, to get that one more rep you might suddenly find that there was indeed a little bit more left in you. That's where competition, a training partner, or a coach can play a role. Pushing you to a level you would not push yourself.

friedchickendinner

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Not true. Intensity is defined as momentary effort. If you pick a weight light enough to do 20 reps and despite your best effort you cannot do 21 reps that 20th rep is going to be your most intense reps. I assume you never tried the 20 rep squat protocol that was so popular many years back. You don't need heavy weights, or even any weight at all, to maximize intensity of effort. A sprinter going for a world record is pushing himself to the max and you can see how exhausted a sprinter is after less than 10 seconds of effort.

Thats not what Im talking about here and thats not what dorian was doing.

Nobody is talking about dorians balls to the wall training as just struggling with the last rep, and thats that.

I thought you know how dorian trained, go look up Blood N guts on youtube and then come back and tell me youre training as hard as he is.

friedchickendinner

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This is how Dorian trained and there is a reason this video is a classic

the reason is he trained harder and more brutal and more intense than all others and you cannot find a video of any other bodybuilder that trains like this.



So the point in this whole thread is that this type of training might not be IDEAL for others, in fact there are reasons hardly anyone trains like this - and maybe they shouldnt and maybe they cannot.


SF1900

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The greatest way to increase intensity in a weight training session is to slow down the movement. Nothing else creates for a more intense workout.
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friedchickendinner

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The greatest way to increase intensity in a weight training session is to slow down the movement. Nothing else creates for a more intense workout.

Yes the slow protocol famous for putting a lot of muslce on - nobody ever

SF1900

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His arms are fine. Remember, he still won the O with the torn bicep. He has not lost any function in his arms that hinders him in anyway giving his lifestyle.

He should have lost to Nasser. What a travesty.
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friedchickendinner

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If you think training itense doesnt require heavy weights lets do an experiment:

Monday: train as intense as possible without using heavy weights.

Friday: train as intense as possible with heavy weights.

Report back...


pellius

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Thats not what Im talking about here and thats not what dorian was doing.

Nobody is talking about dorians balls to the wall training as just struggling with the last rep, and thats that.

I thought you know how dorian trained, go look up Blood N guts on youtube and then come back and tell me youre training as hard as he is.

What are you talking about? We weren't talking about Dorian. What differentiated Dorian from his peers was his training intensity. He used as heavy a resistance he could handle with good/decent form (not always). What's your point? You can still train intensely using lighter weights and more reps. Ask Coach about the 50 reps training he did back in the old days at Bill Pearl's gym. It's momentary intensity. Putting the maximum amount of effort at that point in time. Just like with a sprinter going for a world record.

You sprint for 100 yards as fast as you can and tell me that was not an intense experience.

Whether or not I train as hard as Dorian is irrelevant.

pellius

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If you think training itense doesnt require heavy weights lets do an experiment:

Monday: train as intense as possible without using heavy weights.

Friday: train as intense as possible with heavy weights.

Report back...

I've done both. I once started did a leg routine where after warmups I did one balls to the wall set on the Hack Squat with a spotter so I was able to do forced reps, partials, and negatives. The weight was light enough so that I was able to do 28 reps. I could not do thirty. When I got off the machine and tried to walk my legs gave out and I collapse to the floor. I felt sick and nauseated. After about fifteen minutes it was clear I would not be able to continue with the workout. I drove home, had no appetite, and just laid down and went to sleep. That was the hardest set I ever did using a weight that was half the amount I usually use for Hacks.

pellius

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This is how Dorian trained and there is a reason this video is a classic

the reason is he trained harder and more brutal and more intense than all others and you cannot find a video of any other bodybuilder that trains like this.



So the point in this whole thread is that this type of training might not be IDEAL for others, in fact there are reasons hardly anyone trains like this - and maybe they shouldnt and maybe they cannot.

I guess you haven't seen any of Tom Platz's videos.

There are many that have done a set with more intensity than Dorian. For example, look at Dorian doing his one work set on the pullover. He does five reps on his own and three forced reps after that. When Casey Viator came to Hawaii in 1979 while he was still working with Arthur Jones to promote the Nautilus Line. After the seminar he showed us an example of the type of training he did with Jones. On the pullover, using the stack, he did 7 full-range reps. He went so far back that when he did the first rep I thought he dislocated his shoulder. He then drove his elbows all the way back without leaning forward like Dorian does but with his chest out which allowed his elbow to go back further and paused at full contraction. After the 7th rep he did four forced reps with his spotter helping him just enough to move the weight. It took forever to do these forced reps. After that he did three negative reps. His partner assisted him in the concentric portion and Casey slowly lowered the weight stack until by the time he did the third negative he could no longer safely control the eccentric portion. There was some grimacing and grunting but not to the extent that Dorian would do.

escrima

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I guess you haven't seen any of Tom Platz's videos.

There are many that have done a set with more intensity than Dorian. For example, look at Dorian doing his one work set on the pullover. He does five reps on his own and three forced reps after that. When Casey Viator came to Hawaii in 1979 while he was still working with Arthur Jones to promote the Nautilus Line. After the seminar he showed us an example of the type of training he did with Jones. On the pullover, using the stack, he did 7 full-range reps. He went so far back that when he did the first rep I thought he dislocated his shoulder. He then drove his elbows all the way back without leaning forward like Dorian does but with his chest out which allowed his elbow to go back further and paused at full contraction. After the 7th rep he did four forced reps with his spotter helping him just enough to move the weight. It took forever to do these forced reps. After that he did three negative reps. His partner assisted him in the concentric portion and Casey slowly lowered the weight stack until by the time he did the third negative he could no longer safely control the eccentric portion. There was some grimacing and grunting but not to the extent that Dorian would do.
so let´s get this right you are saying a Multi MrO like Dorian did not train as intensive as Casey Viator? Maybe you should have been Mr O? but no you are just a know it all smart ass on a bodybuilding forum. can´t be arsed to read all your BS. I bet you believe the Colorado experiment too.  ::)

friedchickendinner

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What are you talking about? We weren't talking about Dorian.

Oh my bad I thought ME starting a thread about DORIAN was supposed to be about DORIAN thats why I started it.

Carry on.

escrima

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Oh my bad I thought ME starting a thread about DORIAN was supposed to be about DORIAN thats why I started it.

Carry on.
He takes over any thread on everything. He knows everything better.

friedchickendinner

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If you think youre training hard and

a) have no big amount of muscle mass to show for it (for example big arms, big chest, big back)

and

b) have no big number of lifts to show for it (for example impressive bench, impressive squat etc)

then chances are you are not training hard

there is no point in claiming to train hard and intense if it doesnt lead to any noticable result either in muscle mass or power.

HEAVY WEIGHT MATTERS

joswift

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If you think youre training hard and

a) have no big amount of muscle mass to show for it (for example big arms, big chest, big back)

and

b) have no big number of lifts to show for it (for example impressive bench, impressive squat etc)

then chances are you are not training hard

there is no point in claiming to train hard and intense if it doesnt lead to any noticable result either in muscle mass or power.

HEAVY WEIGHT MATTERS

any anaerobic exercise is intense..

friedchickendinner

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So is sex with big woman


Atlas pump

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He tore his arms to shreds, which forced him to retire early.  His arms today measure 13", and have basically zero muscle.  His yoga/bike thing is a cope, because his muscles and joints are destroyed.

A former pro with 13s?

His arms are about 14.5 stud

Yeee

Humble Narcissist

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If you think youre training hard and

a) have no big amount of muscle mass to show for it (for example big arms, big chest, big back)

and

b) have no big number of lifts to show for it (for example impressive bench, impressive squat etc)

then chances are you are not training hard

there is no point in claiming to train hard and intense if it doesnt lead to any noticable result either in muscle mass or power.

HEAVY WEIGHT MATTERS
No it's because of bad genetics for muscle building.

LurkerNoMore

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Oh my bad I thought ME starting a thread about DORIAN was supposed to be about DORIAN thats why I started it.

Carry on.

LOL

Jizmonkey

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 Hopefully in the near future we can use clones for experimenting with different muscle building techniques. For science.  ;)
 

pellius

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so let´s get this right you are saying a Multi MrO like Dorian did not train as intensive as Casey Viator? Maybe you should have been Mr O? but no you are just a know it all smart ass on a bodybuilding forum. can´t be arsed to read all your BS. I bet you believe the Colorado experiment too.  ::)

No, I said that Casey's set on the Nautilus Pullover during the seminar I attended was more intense than Dorian's final work set on the exact same machine. Yelling and screaming doesn't necessarily mean you are training harder than someone who is not making as much noise. It is objectively verifiable that Casey's set was more intense. Dorian stopped after 3 forced reps with less than strict form and full range of motion. Casey not only did his set more strictly and used such a full range stretching back so far that it looked like his arms were going to be torn off his body. In addition, he took the set much further than Dorian did doing four, much harder forced reps (helped just barely enough to move the weight), in addition, he did three negatives until he could barely control that last eccentric portion of the rep.

This has nothing to do with me being smart, a know it all, or B.S., it's simply reporting a fact that I personally witnessed. This seems to bother you which obviously comes from an emotional reaction to my comments as you are unable to offer any rational counter-argument other than to say I should have been a Mr. O. There are many factors that determine the amount of muscular development one can attain. Casey may have consistently trained his lats/back harder than Dorian but that obviously wasn't enough to exceed Dorian's back development. Just like I am sure many have trained their legs just as hard as Platz but never came close to his leg development. Again, nothing with being smart or a know it all. Just making an objective observation that I would think would be obvious to anyone but seems to have escaped you. No need to cry and have a fit about it.

pellius

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Oh my bad I thought ME starting a thread about DORIAN was supposed to be about DORIAN thats why I started it.

Carry on.

You are correct. This one is my bad.

pellius

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He takes over any thread on everything. He knows everything better.

It's sad that you take personal offense at bringing up points and observations that you obviously never knew about or even considered. Instead of debating issues or pointing out any flaws or fallacies you just pout like a child and attack my character. Perhaps you should be more of a critical thinker, or just a thinker in general, instead of just passively accepting various bro-science theories and principles based usually on feelings.


pellius

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any anaerobic exercise is intense..

You seem to be the only clear and critical thinker on this thread.

pellius

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If you think youre training hard and

a) have no big amount of muscle mass to show for it (for example big arms, big chest, big back)

and

b) have no big number of lifts to show for it (for example impressive bench, impressive squat etc)

then chances are you are not training hard

there is no point in claiming to train hard and intense if it doesnt lead to any noticable result either in muscle mass or power.

HEAVY WEIGHT MATTERS

Probably the most ignorant post on this thread.