Billy Scott Interview: Part 3 Continued...
MB: Do you think that Ken Shamrock was a good representation of catch-wrestling?
BS: I think that he was. Sure, them, Funaki, and a lot of those guys were good with the submission wrestling. There were things that were taught a little bit different with them, but again, that goes back to your coach, and how you were taught.
MB: What do you think of Erik Paulson?
BS: I think that he’s awesome. I think that he’s brilliant, to be honest with you.
MB: He was a fascinating character to me, because he was in Shooto before the first UFC, and he actually got his start, I think, in Jeet Kun Do, or Tae Kwon Do, so he had a striking base, but then he started training with Rickson Gracie, and then he goes to Shooto, and learns from Sayama, so he has all this different knowledge, from all these different places.
BS: And he puts it into perspective, I think he does really good with it. There has been so many times, where I just go through stuff, and there’s Paulson. So, yes, he has a great background in everything. I’ve never met him, so he could be an awesome guy, but technique wise, he’s great.
MB: What are your thoughts on Dan Severn? Did you get to hang out with him in your UWFI days?
BS: Yes, Dan and I are friends. I’ve brought him over here for seminars, and he’s a really great guy. To me he’s a great wrestler and a great guy.
MB: And from what I’ve seen of him, he seems like a good teacher.
BS: Yes, he is good, from all that he’s done over the years. Also, as a big guy he knows how to do the big guy stuff, too. He knows how to ride, and put his weight on you, and how to wear you out, and he doesn’t get in a hurry, and that comes with experience. Once he gets a good position, he is going to try and keep it and wear the other guy out. He was a great teacher too. So was Steve Nelson.
MB: What was Lou Thez like? Did you ever get to meet him?
BS: I met Lou Thez a few times, mainly on a plane. I didn’t really get to talk to him much, though. He would speak at some of the UWFI events, and his belt was over there for a while. I saw Danny Hodge more than I saw Lou Thez.
MB: What was Billy Robinson’s opinion of Karl Gotch, and Lou Thez?
BS: He always spoke well of both of them, but Robinson was someone that would tell you up to a point, how he felt about you, but at the same time he wasn’t someone that would speak ill of someone that he didn’t like. From what I recall though, he always spoke well of Thez, and Gotch.
MB: Did he ever speak in terms of something like, “Hey, one-time Gotch showed me this move right here,” or “I learned this from so and so?”
BS: No, not really, he just mentioned things like how he lived together with Gotch at one point, or how he got his eye injury. I never got met Gotch, I would have liked to.
MB: Like I mentioned earlier, you remind me a lot of Fujiwara, because I just watched an interview that was put out recently, where Fujiwara just talked about his relationship with Karl Gotch, and how he was like a 2nd father to him. It didn’t start that way, but over time, they built that kind of relationship.
BS: Yeah, that’s what I had with Coach Robinson.
Billy Robinson and Karl Gotch, taken from a match in 1971. 
MB: You were one of the very few people to have worked with both Kiyoshi Tamura, and Kazushi Sakaraba. Which person impressed you more in a pro wrestling sense, and who impressed you more in a MMA sense?
BS: To me, as individuals, Tamura was the quickest as far as getting positions, and stuff like that, and to a point I would put him above Sakuraba, as far as quickness, but either way, it was going to be good.
MB: Did Sakuraba’s future MMA success surprise you? Were you surprised when he started beating all the Gracies?
BS: No. I worked with him, and did some stuff with him, and I knew that he was special. Sometimes you just know when you have a guy that’s special. A lot of guys are special, but sometimes, like Coach Robinson used to tell me and Gene, “You guys are ten years ahead of your time,” so what that meant to me was that you can be good now, but four or five years later, times can change, so you just never know. Sakuraba made a hell of a career out of himself, and Tamura has done the same to, to an extent, but maybe not to those from the outside looking in.
MB: For people that really know MMA, they know that Tamura is amazing, but he doesn’t have that name recognition with casual fans, but he beat Renzo Gracie, and he beat Pat Militech, and those are big wins! I guess to me, and this is just my opinion, I think that Tamura was probably more well-rounded in MMA, Sakuraba really had the number of other grapplers. He beat Carlos Newton, several Gracies, but he always seemed to have a problem with strikers.
BS: To be honest with you, the majority of the time, standup seemed to be the weakness of the Japanese. It was their kryptonite, but grappling was like 2nd nature to them.
MB: Well, let’s ask you this. It’s 1996, and you have to have a full-blown vale tudo match with either Sakuraba, or Tamura, who do you choose? Which one do you think you would have a better chance against?
BS: Pick a stick of dynamite, either one. *Laughs*
MB: *Laughs* Fair enough. How did Kingdom come about? Who started it?
BS: Actually, my contract was still in effect when the UWFI ended, so they told me not to worry, that they were still going to pay me, and they told me that they were going to open up another league, so I continued to train, and when I came back I fought Larry Parker, who was doing quite a few things at the time as well.
MB: Yes, and later on, he became a bit of a journeyman in MMA. Ok, at this point are you weighing your options, I mean Kingdom is rising up, but Tamura has gone to Rings by this point, and he’s having success there, and you have the UFC going on. By this time, were you interested in trying the UFC?
BS: No, because around the time of the Larry Parker fight, I was close to 30 years of age, and around 30-31, I began thinking about longevity, and this is what I had been doing for my whole life, so why stop now? Also, I had always wanted to open up a gym, and I knew that I had to find something that I could do. So, I started a job around the year 2000, and that gave me medical insurance, and then I opened up a gym in 2007. So I go to work at my main job, and then I come here, and I get to deal with my students and teach what Coach Robinson taught me, and I can make a difference in their lives.
MB: Did the UFC ever reach out to you, or make any offers?
BS: No, they never reached out to me.
MB: What about the pro-wrestling side? Did New Japan ever say that they would like to do something with you?
BS: Not New Japan, but there was another group that reached out to me, that I did something for, but I can’t remember the name of it…
MB: Do you mean U-Dream?
BS: Yes, U-Dream.
MB: I have that event, but it seemed like it was only a one-time thing.
BS: Yeah, one event, that was it.
MB: Yeah, you were there, and Enson Inoue was there, but I guess it was a one-and-done kind of deal.
BS: Yes, and after you do something like that, you realize that you are beginning to get up in age, even though I was only 30-31, I knew that I had to start thinking about myself, because I knew that if I kept trying to do this for several more years down the road, that I could get injured. At this point, I just started looking at things differently. Now if I was 21 years old, or 23, or 24, then I would have loved it.
MB: I don’t know if regret is the right word, but do you ever look back and wish that you didn’t come on as soon as you did? Do you wish that you were able to get into MMA more into the late 90s or early 00s?
BS: It’s like anything else. You talk to boxers that used to box in the 80s or 70s, and you show them MMA now, and they’re like, “Holy Shit, I wished we had that then!” Of course, you say that, until you actually get in there, and start getting hit! *Laughs* Then you’re like, “What the hell did I just get myself into?”
MB: Until your orbital bone is broken? *Laughs*
BS: *Laughs* Yeah, like “Maybe, I should have thought this through!” You know what, though? Out of this whole thing, in my experience of getting in front of over 50,000 people, and to be able to experience walking out to that, or to experience meeting the people that I’ve met, and to be able have the best coach, that I could have ever had in my life, and not just about wrestling, but about life… It was awesome.
MB: Yes,and hopefully, and maybe you already have, but you’ll get someone in your life down the road that you can mentor, because depending on the circumstances, you can really….. I don’t want to say something cliché like you could save someone’s life, but maybe if you have someone that is going the wrong way, you can help give them something, like discipline, or by being a father figure in their life.
BS: Yes, I’ll tell you right now, that I’ve been here 13 years, and over those years I’ve gotten to meet with so many different kinds of people, and I’ve even had therapists send me people that have issues with their anger, and they go through a program with me, and if I can do something to change, or help them, then that is really rewarding.
MB: Absolutely. Now, what was the philosophy behind Kingdom? To me, when I look at Kingdom, I see the shoot-style taken to its extreme, and probably pushing that concept as far as it could go, without getting into full-blown vale tudo. Did any of you guys prefer to be shooting at this time… *pauses* I guess what I’m trying to say, is that Kingdom was still mostly worked right? There was still a lot of pre-determined outcomes?
BS: If anything was pre-determined, I didn’t know about it. As far as I know, it was a straight shoot.
MB: Ok. Let me put it this way. Funaki left Fujiwara because he wanted to shoot. And towards the end of his run in the PWFG, they were going hard, and for lack of a better word, I would say doing what I like to call a ¾ shoot, where they are sparring, and not everything is choreographed, but there is still a pre-determined finish, and they still chose who they were going to put over.
BS: Anything that has to do with money, and I don’t care what it is, if it’s baseball or basketball, or whatever, if it has to do with big money, there is going to be some kind of fix, or setup, at some time or another.
MB: Sure, even pro wrestling, going back to the 20s, was real, until they figured out that they could make more money by controlling the outcomes. But Funaki started Pancrase, because he wanted to be in an environment where he could shoot, and Shamrock was the same way, he thought that what they were doing in the PWFG was fun, but he really wanted to test himself, and other guys like Takahashi, and Fuke, and some of those other guys, also left. It seemed like they wanted to prove themselves. Did anyone in any of these other promotions, that you know of, feel the same way? Did you guys ever feel like you really wanted to just go out there and go 100%?
BS: Let me put it like this. You had Tamura, and Sakuraba, and Nakano, and when they trained, they TRAINED. Let me put it like this, when we went to Israel, they brought a female Judo player, who I think was a gold medalist (possibly Yael Arad?) We were at a TV Show where they were interviewing us, and when they interviewed her, she said that she really doubted some that some of the throws, or some of the things that we were doing could be done, and when they asked me what I thought of that, I told them, that even though she was very talented, that anyone can do different things at different times, and just because she can’t do it, doesn’t mean that others can’t do it. But there were things that were set up, and there were fixed fights…
MB: I’m not saying “worked” in a derogatory way at all. To me, part of this project is trying to see how this all started and how it morphed into where it is now. A good example would be RINGS. When it first started, with a few exceptions, it was mostly worked, until about 95, and then from 95 forward, they would have at least one, and sometimes more, shoots on every card and then by the time 98-99 rolls around it’s a whole new promotion, but there was that entire weird evolution where it went from one thing to another.
BS: Well it’s like this. When they started doing fights around here, I had amateur fighters, and we would go to different venues, and the regulations are a lot better today then it was then, as back then sometimes you would show up to an amateur fight, and the other guy would have no training at all, and was probably going to get hurt, but they wanted to have tournaments, they wanted to structure it in a way that pleased the crowd.
MB: I remember reading, that one time the Dynamite Kid, when Sayama was talking about his shooting concept with him, told him that no in in their right mind was going to pay just to see them shoot, and roll around on the floor, and from what I understand, Funaki, and Shamrock were told the same thing, that no one would pay to see people shoot.
BS: Do you remember when that one guy came down? *Pauses and things* I think he was a WWF world champion…
MB: Bob Backlund?
BS: Yes, Bob Backlund. Do you remember when he came down, and faced Takada?
MB: And the fight lasted a minute? Yes, that was horrible.
BS: Yeah, it was horrible.
MB: They almost rioted, didn’t they? Didn’t Yamazaki have to go out, and calm them down?
BS: Yes, it was. They had to send out Yamazaki to kill it. I think that might have been one of my first times over there. I remember it happening, and it goes to show that they expected more, and they got less, just like when Takada and Gracie were fighting, you expect more, but you got less.
MB: Sure, but at the same time, I suppose they got more with Sakuraba, because no one could have expected him to become a superstar Gracie-killer.
BS: No, but he would do crazy stuff like cartwheels, or stuff just because he could.
MB: Yes, he was very creative.
BS: Yes, very creative. He would do things, and you would be like, “Why the hell did he do that?” Like just chopping somebody. *Motions with a double karate chop* Just clowning around.
MB: What are your thoughts on current MMA? Do you like it, or do you watch it?
BS: I watch it sometimes, but I don’t buy the PPVs. Sometimes I see fighters, or fights that I’m really impressed with, but I don’t pay to see it. I like Bellator better than the UFC.
MB: Do you think that Japanese MMA could ever be big again?
BS: I think it could, but when the UFC bought out Pride, it would have made more sense for the UFC to keep Pride around the Japanese equivalent to the UFC , and have them build up their fighters throughout the year, and at the end of the year have the champions from the UFC and Pride face each other. That would make money.
MB: Sure! Of course, there was the Yakuza scandals… Were you aware of the Yakuza in your UWFI days?
BS: Yeah, you could see them. Definitely. Anytime you were at a big event, or anytime there was money involved, you could see them. Or you would be at a venue, and they would say that it’s sold out, but it’s only ¾ full, and you wonder where everybody is at, and then you go outside, or go somewhere to get something to drink, and they are out there scalping tickets, so yeah, it was a big thing over there.
MB: Ok, so when Kingdom was trying to get off the ground, they had a brief partnership with the UFC, for the first UFC Japan event, and from what I understand Hiromitsu Kanehara was supposed to be in the tournament that night, but was injured in training, so they substituted him with Sakuraba. Did you know about any of this, or did they approach you, and ask if you were interested in being part of this?
BS: No, I didn’t know about any of that. I knew that Sakuraba had a fight over there, against Conan , right?
MB: Yes, he fought Conan (referring to Marcus “Conan” Silveira) in one of the strangest occurrences in MMA history, because as he was fighting Conan, Conan was really laying some hard punches into him, and honestly to me it looked like he was going to put Sakuraba away. As Sakuraba was getting wailed on, he dropped for a low single leg, like he always did, and the referee John McCarthy thought he was knocked out, and he called the fight. Then Tank Abbott wound up breaking his hand on Yoji Anjo’s face, so he couldn’t continue either, so it was just a big mess, so they wound up putting Sakuraba back in there against Conan again, and this time he armbars Conan, no problem.
BS: That was pretty much how he got started wasn’t it?
MB: Yes, although it wasn’t his first MMA fight. His first MMA fight was against Kimo Leopoldo, at a Shootboxing event, of all things, and Kimo pretty much dominated him, but that isn’t taking anything away from Sakuraba, as Kimo was huge, and roided.
BS: And that’s another thing, is you have people say that was his first shoot. It may have been his first shoot in the UFC, but there have been many a shoot between those guys over the years.
MB: Yeah, losing to Kimo, who outweighed him by a ton, is no shame, but yes, UFC Japan was his first claim to broader MMA fame.
BS: Oh yeah. I remember seeing that, and I thought it was awesome. He was given an opportunity, and he made the best of it.
MB: Well, thank you for your time. It was an absolute pleasure!
If any of you out there would like to learn from someone that was a direct disciple of catch-wrestling legend Billy Robinson, then please go check out his gym, located in Smith’s Grove KY at 126 N Main St, Smith’s Grove KY.
He can also be reached for seminars at (270) 392-6759
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