Author Topic: Paul Dilette - Freak  (Read 24576 times)

escrima

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #175 on: August 26, 2020, 12:45:03 AM »
Boxers, wrestlers and MMA fighters do all kinds of exercises for stabilizers.  Farmer's walk, pushing sleds, lifting sand bags, plyometrics, calisthenics, etc, etc.  No fighter trains for strength exclusively on machines and most never use weight machines at all.
agree & Anyone who thinks otherwise has never trained for Real fighting
a boxer needs strong shoulders, traps to hold his Hands up. They use battle ropes now. My day a medicine Ball.
a cycist needs strong Abs, lower back. Planks for the core stabilizers. Hours in the saddle need muscle strength & endurance. Rotator cuff muscles are stabilizers, tendons & ligaments are also stabilizers better trained with free weights


pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #176 on: August 26, 2020, 03:07:54 AM »
I can't really explain it better than I did.

Often the discussion has to do not so much with agreement but with clarity. That we are talking about the same thing. When I read the various replies and comments regarding the affect of resistance coming from free weights versus machines I keep a couple of things in mind. Muscle function is relatively simple and do just one thing, and one thing only, they contract. They contract to initiate movement, the concentric phase, like pushing open a door; they contract to hold or maintain a position, the static or isometric phase, like carrying a shoebox waiting in line at a cashier; and lastly, to act as a brake or control, the eccentric or negative phase so you don't go tumbling down a flight of stairs.

Now, if I recall correctly from my classes in human physiology muscle contraction is initiated by one thing: when a signal, and impulse, travels through a nerve cell, a motor unit, to be more precise. Not going into agonizing detail a chemical reaction takes place and the relationship between the chains of proteins within the muscle cells changes leading to the contraction.

So these two are just indisputable basic facts. All a muscle fiber does is contract and how it contracts is always the same. So from a muscles perspective it doesn't matter what causes it to contract; be it from pushing a barbell over head or pushing a bar from a Universal station or Nautilus overhead press, or simply doing a front double bi in front of a mirror. The process is the same, exactly the same, and therefore the stimulus is the same. A signal and an impulse is sent and the muscle contracts.

Though this basic process is fairly simple and unchanging, the coordination of the various cascade of these contractions that initiate and perform various movements postures, and positions is quite complex. Anyone involved in any type of physical activity be it in athletics, mechanics, medicine, engineering... know that even a slight deviaton from a specific movement, a muscle contraction, can make the difference between success, failure, or even complete disaster.

Now from a bbing perspective, how a targeted muscle responds does depend on the stimulous involved, i.e., the specific movement and resistance applied to that targeted muscle. For example, say we are talking about the pull-ups versus the lat pull-down. These are virtually identical movements with the resistance in both movements starting from the top and the muscle contracting drawing the elbows down and slightly back depending on form. From the muscle's perspective the main factor is simply the resistance, the weight involved, it makes no difference whether it is the bar that is being pulled down toward your chest or your chest being pulled up to the bar. The muscle contraction is the same and to claim that the traditional pull-up is inherently more productive to muscle, to lat, hypertrophy than the lat pull-down simply does not comport with common sense. This is proven in the real world as many professional bbers never do pull-ups but have great backs. Certainly I have never seen Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman do traditional pull-ups and these two have some of the greatest back development of all time. Ronnie in particular use the lat pull-down as a mainstay and never pull-ups.

So, from a muscle point of view it doesn't matter where the resistance is coming from be it free weights, machines, bands, body weight... just the amount of resistance and intensity, the force of effort, applied.
 

pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #177 on: August 26, 2020, 03:12:28 AM »
Using the boxer example I think the one who lifted free weights would develop more punching power because of the work of the stabilizer muscles.  When you lift free weights it isn't just the resistance but also the balancing and the other muscles involved like the core to keep you up and holding that weight.  With machines like Nautilus that focus on 1 muscle only you are only strengthening that 1 muscle.

Are you able to break this down into more specificity? Can you give a concrete example. Like how a bench press would give you more punching power than the hammer press. What specific stabilizer and core is activated that cannot be duplicate by a machine? And, as an aside, what machine, be it Nautilus, Hammer, Flex, Hoist... that only stresses ONE muscle.

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #178 on: August 26, 2020, 03:20:50 AM »
Often the discussion has to do not so much with agreement but with clarity. That we are talking about the same thing. When I read the various replies and comments regarding the affect of resistance coming from free weights versus machines I keep a couple of things in mind. Muscle function is relatively simple and do just one thing, and one thing only, they contract. They contract to initiate movement, the concentric phase, like pushing open a door; they contract to hold or maintain a position, the static or isometric phase, like carrying a shoebox waiting in line at a cashier; and lastly, to act as a brake or control, the eccentric or negative phase so you don't go tumbling down a flight of stairs.

Now, if I recall correctly from my classes in human physiology muscle contraction is initiated by one thing: when a signal, and impulse, travels through a nerve cell, a motor unit, to be more precise. Not going into agonizing detail a chemical reaction takes place and the relationship between the chains of proteins within the muscle cells changes leading to the contraction.

So these two are just indisputable basic facts. All a muscle fiber does is contract and how it contracts is always the same. So from a muscles perspective it doesn't matter what causes it to contract; be it from pushing a barbell over head or pushing a bar from a Universal station or Nautilus overhead press, or simply doing a front double bi in front of a mirror. The process is the same, exactly the same, and therefore the stimulus is the same. A signal and an impulse is sent and the muscle contracts.

Though this basic process is fairly simple and unchanging, the coordination of the various cascade of these contractions that initiate and perform various movements postures, and positions is quite complex. Anyone involved in any type of physical activity be it in athletics, mechanics, medicine, engineering... know that even a slight deviaton from a specific movement, a muscle contraction, can make the difference between success, failure, or even complete disaster.

Now from a bbing perspective, how a targeted muscle responds does depend on the stimulous involved, i.e., the specific movement and resistance applied to that targeted muscle. For example, say we are talking about the pull-ups versus the lat pull-down. These are virtually identical movements with the resistance in both movements starting from the top and the muscle contracting drawing the elbows down and slightly back depending on form. From the muscle's perspective the main factor is simply the resistance, the weight involved, it makes no difference whether it is the bar that is being pulled down toward your chest or your chest being pulled up to the bar. The muscle contraction is the same and to claim that the traditional pull-up is inherently more productive to muscle, to lat, hypertrophy than the lat pull-down simply does not comport with common sense. This is proven in the real world as many professional bbers never do pull-ups but have great backs. Certainly I have never seen Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman do traditional pull-ups and these two have some of the greatest back development of all time. Ronnie in particular use the lat pull-down as a mainstay and never pull-ups.

So, from a muscle point of view it doesn't matter where the resistance is coming from be it free weights, machines, bands, body weight... just the amount of resistance and intensity, the force of effort, applied.

you were sleeping
not surprising is the assisted pull up comes closest to a pull up
this indeed would make sense

https://juniperpublishers.com/jpfmts/pdf/JPFMTS.MS.ID.555669.pdf

pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #179 on: August 26, 2020, 03:34:46 AM »
Boxers, wrestlers and MMA fighters do all kinds of exercises for stabilizers.  Farmer's walk, pushing sleds, lifting sand bags, plyometrics, calisthenics, etc, etc.  No fighter trains for strength exclusively on machines and most never use weight machines at all.

Not a challenge but a genuine question, what MMA gym have you trained at that even casually broached the notion of stabilizing muscles? I've trained at various MMA gyms beginning at the R1 training center ran by former number one welterweight contender in the UFC, Frank Trigg and D1 wrestler Rico Chiapparelli, as well as several here in Hawaii.

Hawaii's MMA community is a pretty tight knit group and you see the same people at tournaments and events and get to know one another over the years and discuss various issues as it pertains to MMA. I once had a somewhat lengthy conversation with Darin Yap, Max Holloway's strength and conditioning coach, and though we seemed to cover all aspects of strength and conditioning, as Max is known for having superb conditioning, never did the notion of stabilizing muscle ever come up in the conversation. Some of the tradition methods you mentioned was used: pushing sleds, rope pumps, calisthenics and all of it's varieties, but it was always for the purpose of muscle conditioning and endurance, a quality far more important than brute strength where there are weight classes. There was no mention of any exercise that focused on stabilizing muscles as the whole concept just is even considered or recognized.

This idea of stabilizing muscles and your "core" are relatively new ideas and was never considered or a factor in bbing, even up to the 1990s, considered the era where bbing peaked. And I doubt Cus D'Amato while training Tyson and putting through his paces of various calisthenics and drills had even the slightest idea what a stabilizing muscle was.

pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #180 on: August 26, 2020, 03:36:54 AM »
Sure, but there's really no such thing as a stabilizer muscle. I would say a farmer walk or pushing a sled is more conditioning work. Some powerlifters do those too, they call it GPP training, general physical preparedness, general endurance. What would be a stabilizer involved in pushing a sled that can't be trained with a machine? Pushing a sled is calves, quads... pulling is like a leg extension for quads and so on. Farmers walk might involve lots of obliques, but you could do side bends on a smith machine as well. So an athlete could train on machine more for pure strength and do those other things for endurance, not so much for a particular "stabilizer", which I haven't really seen defined anywhere. Any muscle on the body could be a stabilizer, if you do a machine press your quads and glutes could be stabilizing your body during the exercise  -  but here's the thing, the advantage with machines is in fact that you don't need as much stabilizing. Why is it an advantage? Because this will increase the output of the target muscle! Say a seated leg curl, the hams can be hit harder due to you being locked in so the stimulus for the hamstring will be higher = faster, better results.


https://www.instagram.com/p/CDyrldFDxDj/?igshid=1csz8w8hmyxxr

Edit: didn't see Pellius's post as I was writing mine at the same time, he said much the same things. :D

That's fine. It was very gratifying to read. The vast majority have bought into this whole made-up concept of stabilizing muscles and the "core" which no one can seem to adequately explain or define.

pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #181 on: August 26, 2020, 03:45:53 AM »
you were sleeping
not surprising is the assisted pull up comes closest to a pull up
this indeed would make sense

https://juniperpublishers.com/jpfmts/pdf/JPFMTS.MS.ID.555669.pdf

As the discussion goes into more depth and analysis you become increasing more and more irrelevant. Still seeking approval and acceptance from strangers on a message board that universally considers you a clown

What it must like to be your age and having achieved nothing in life. Just a cowardly little man hiding behind a computer screen to make up for being bullied in real life.

It's funny reading the way you write. You sound like a third grader. Did you even graduate high school? Everything about makes you seem so uneducated and low brow. Well, you did grow up in a third world country. I bet you're amazing working in the rice paddy fields.

IroNat

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #182 on: August 26, 2020, 03:46:44 AM »
Bodybuilding is a specialized form of training and machines are just as good or better.  However, I'm not referring to bodybuilding.  It all comes down to having to balance the weight during the movement.  The muscles involved learn to balance the body and weight together.  Since most machines (not all) used for pressing have a fixed plane of motion (like a Zinkin universal) you don't have to balance the weight. A standing barbell curl requires balance.  A seated dumbbell curl does not.  So it's not just free weight vs. machine.  It's also how an exercise is performed.

pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #183 on: August 26, 2020, 03:48:52 AM »
agree & Anyone who thinks otherwise has never trained for Real fighting
a boxer needs strong shoulders, traps to hold his Hands up. They use battle ropes now. My day a medicine Ball.
a cycist needs strong Abs, lower back. Planks for the core stabilizers. Hours in the saddle need muscle strength & endurance. Rotator cuff muscles are stabilizers, tendons & ligaments are also stabilizers better trained with free weights


LOL @ "planks". "Training" ligaments.

You really are a clueless joke. A special class of stupid.

pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #184 on: August 26, 2020, 04:01:34 AM »
Bodybuilding is a specialized form of training and machines are just as good or better.  However, I'm not referring to bodybuilding.  It all comes down to having to balance the weight during the movement.  Since most machines (not all) used for pressing have a fixed plane of motion (like a Zinkin universal) you don't have to balance the weight. A standing barbell curl requires balance.  A seated dumbbell curl does not.  So it's not just free weight vs. machine.  It's also how an exercise is performed.

Yes, I understand. But this gets back to the point that Van B and I made, why does having to balance a weight make it a better exercise? It certainly does take away from the targeted muscle group. I admit it is harder because it is an acquired skill but what use is that skill other than to preform that specific movement. Taking the example of squating on a Swiss ball. This certain requires far more balance than the barbell squat but does that mean it is more productive in increasing lower body strength? All it does is improve your ability to squat on a Swiss ball which has zero practical application.

One does reach a point where doing a particular free weight movement, be it the bench press or squat, where after months and years of performing that particular movement that the notion of skill, the balancing/stabilizing of the muscles no longer becomes a factor because of the coordination skills develop over the years. You've trained your body to get into the proper groove that's ingrained in you. I am reminded of this whenever I see someone first starting to do bench press. To me the bench press is such a simply movement and I perform it the same way effortlessly. No real conscious effort is require to smoothly bring that bar up and down. But when I see a neophyte it's almost astounding if not comical seeing the difficulty they have doing this movement. The way the bring the bar to low then too hight and are unable to push at an even pressure so the bar starts tilting this way and that.

escrima

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #185 on: August 26, 2020, 04:03:45 AM »
LOL @ "planks". "Training" ligaments.

You really are a clueless joke. A special class of stupid.

no you are full of shit
all talk & no action
a fraud

Global Stabilizer Muscles and their function

http://www.marchellerdc.com/pro_resources/Articles/DC_65_globalStabilizers.pdf


Rambone

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #186 on: August 26, 2020, 06:31:17 AM »
LOL @ "planks". "Training" ligaments.

You really are a clueless joke. A special class of stupid.

What’s wrong with planks?

escrima

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #187 on: August 26, 2020, 06:47:19 AM »
What’s wrong with planks?
nothing..TUT
i used the example of a cyclist because i have a good friend who is a professional cyclist
i know his training plan

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #188 on: August 26, 2020, 09:38:07 AM »
Not a challenge but a genuine question, what MMA gym have you trained at that even casually broached the notion of stabilizing muscles? I've trained at various MMA gyms beginning at the R1 training center ran by former number one welterweight contender in the UFC, Frank Trigg and D1 wrestler Rico Chiapparelli, as well as several here in Hawaii.

Hawaii's MMA community is a pretty tight knit group and you see the same people at tournaments and events and get to know one another over the years and discuss various issues as it pertains to MMA. I once had a somewhat lengthy conversation with Darin Yap, Max Holloway's strength and conditioning coach, and though we seemed to cover all aspects of strength and conditioning, as Max is known for having superb conditioning, never did the notion of stabilizing muscle ever come up in the conversation. Some of the tradition methods you mentioned was used: pushing sleds, rope pumps, calisthenics and all of it's varieties, but it was always for the purpose of muscle conditioning and endurance, a quality far more important than brute strength where there are weight classes. There was no mention of any exercise that focused on stabilizing muscles as the whole concept just is even considered or recognized.

This idea of stabilizing muscles and your "core" are relatively new ideas and was never considered or a factor in bbing, even up to the 1990s, considered the era where bbing peaked. And I doubt Cus D'Amato while training Tyson and putting through his paces of various calisthenics and drills had even the slightest idea what a stabilizing muscle was.
They might not use the term stabilizers but almost every exercise you do in a boxing or MMA gym works multiple muscles or even the whole body at once.  I have never seen a Nautilus machine used by any fighter.  Do they have Nautilus machines in your MMA gym?

Brooks Kubik's book Dinosaur Training: Lost Secrets of Strength and Development covers stabilizer muscles for athletes extensively.

http://www.brookskubik.com/

pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #189 on: August 26, 2020, 04:24:06 PM »
no you are full of shit
all talk & no action
a fraud

Global Stabilizer Muscles and their function

http://www.marchellerdc.com/pro_resources/Articles/DC_65_globalStabilizers.pdf

I've posted pics of where I live, the shape I'm in, where I work, and accepted your challenge you made to me except I am the one who has to come to you.

You have never backed up anything you have ever said. You hide behind a computer too afraid to even show your face.

Once again: Pellius > Escrima by every measure. Prove me wrong. Just one example.

pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #190 on: August 26, 2020, 04:50:15 PM »
They might not use the term stabilizers but almost every exercise you do in a boxing or MMA gym works multiple muscles or even the whole body at once.  I have never seen a Nautilus machine used by any fighter.  Do they have Nautilus machines in your MMA gym?

Brooks Kubik's book Dinosaur Training: Lost Secrets of Strength and Development covers stabilizer muscles for athletes extensively.

http://www.brookskubik.com/

Yes, pretty much every exercise you do requires other muscle to "stabilize" your body, but so what? You need your calves to do standing shoulder presses. You need your calves just to stand. Does that make it an effective calf exercise?

If you want to work your "core" to any appreciable degree which I am told is compose of the abs, obliques, and lower back then you do sit-ups, leg raises, side bends, and deadlifts and not do ballet movement carrying 2 lb dumbbells or holding yourself in unnatural positions until your trainer finishes texting his boy friend.

When doing a bench press even while lying down an inherently stable position you have to use so many other muscles to maintain that position while actually benching, starting from your feet, legs, glutes, lower back... pretty much your whole body acts as a stabilizer. With, say, the Hammer chest press you are pretty much supported all over and even the most uncoordinated person can do this. Now I know you think I am making your point but consider that you took the bench on a bench press and cut it half so that now you have 50% less surface area to rest your back. This would require even more stabilization. Stabilzation in the exact same way as the regular bench except now it is even more exaggerated. Would that be an improvement? Would a boxer be able to punch harder now? Now that he's made an exercise much harder and unstable?
He certainly would improve his skill in benching in an unstable environment but would this transfer to real world functional ability. It certain would compromise his ability to strengthen the targeted muscle group because so many other muscles and the skill required to do the movement would compromise his ability to maximize the load or resistance on the targeted muscle. Just like no matter how good you get at Swiss Ball squatting you will never be able to use nearly the weight that you could use doing a regular squat and therefore never provide the stimulus or over load for muscle hypertrophy. But it will make you great at squatting on a Swiss Ball.

Again, all these arguments is assuming that the purpose to increase the size, strength, and functional ability of a targeted muscle whether that muscle is used to show off to schmoes, punch someone in the face, or throw a baseball over 90mph.

pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #191 on: August 26, 2020, 05:01:43 PM »
They might not use the term stabilizers but almost every exercise you do in a boxing or MMA gym works multiple muscles or even the whole body at once.  I have never seen a Nautilus machine used by any fighter.  Do they have Nautilus machines in your MMA gym?

Brooks Kubik's book Dinosaur Training: Lost Secrets of Strength and Development covers stabilizer muscles for athletes extensively.

http://www.brookskubik.com/

In regard to the type of equipment we have in the various MMA gyms it's very little. It's an MMA gym and not a place for muscle building. We do have some machines such as the hammer underhand pull-down, a leg curl machine, Smith Machine but probably the most important, at least by my perspective, is the Nautilus neck machine. No machine has ever been created that can duplicate another example of Arthur Jones genius and hit the neck from all possible angles: side to side, front to back, back to front, twisting left and twisting right.
A strong neck is a must for wrestler and grapplers. You can't find them anywhere these days because most people train for looks and function and can't be bothered with neck work.


pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #192 on: August 26, 2020, 08:31:43 PM »
What’s wrong with planks?

Can you tell me how planks has helped you in anyway? Did your abs become more developed? Did your squat or bench increase? Were you able to run faster? If you stopped doing planks would you even notice?

Do you think there's been any improvement at all in physiques or athletic performance due to planks?

AbrahamG

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #193 on: August 27, 2020, 12:15:45 AM »
Can you tell me how planks has helped you in anyway? Did your abs become more developed? Did your squat or bench increase? Were you able to run faster? If you stopped doing planks would you even notice?

Do you think there's been any improvement at all in physiques or athletic performance due to planks?

I feel they are horse shit.

escrima

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #194 on: August 27, 2020, 12:25:51 AM »
I've posted pics of where I live, the shape I'm in, where I work, and accepted your challenge you made to me except I am the one who has to come to you.

You have never backed up anything you have ever said. You hide behind a computer too afraid to even show your face.

Once again: Pellius > Escrima by every measure. Prove me wrong. Just one example.

You are going round in circles   
a weasel chasing its tail
you were run off the other thread
you accepted no challenge made
you are no fighter but a broken down old man
trying to stay relevant to a younger audience
your decline on this board is painful to watch

pellius

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #195 on: August 27, 2020, 12:35:58 AM »
I feel they are horse shit.

Here is the world record holder for holding the plank position. 8 hours, 15 minutes, 15 seconds. His regular routing is 3-4 hours in the plank position per day. Imagine that? 3-4 hours just doing a plank. Doesn't anybody think his great condition would be any less if he dropped the plank entirely and just do his regular very intense daily routine. I would think the quality of his life would increase markedly unless he truly enjoys just holding an awkward position for 3-4 hours everyday. And why the plank position? Why not turn around and balance yourself with just your hands and feet and hold that for hours on end?

Unless you are a professional athlete, exercise and physical fitness should be use to enhance the quality of your life not be your life. I guess if you are low IQ and can't think of anything else to do to enjoy life then I guess it's OK. Me, I'd rather spend those 4 hours on the beach enjoying the sun and surf.
 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/23/us/new-planking-world-record-trnd/index.html#:~:text=But%20George%20Hood%2C%20who%20set,confirmed%20was%20the%20new%20record.

escrima

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #196 on: August 27, 2020, 01:16:14 AM »
another great exercise



escrima

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #197 on: August 27, 2020, 01:19:27 AM »
Here is the world record holder for holding the plank position. 8 hours, 15 minutes, 15 seconds. His regular routing is 3-4 hours in the plank position per day. Imagine that? 3-4 hours just doing a plank. Doesn't anybody think his great condition would be any less if he dropped the plank entirely and just do his regular very intense daily routine. I would think the quality of his life would increase markedly unless he truly enjoys just holding an awkward position for 3-4 hours everyday. And why the plank position? Why not turn around and balance yourself with just your hands and feet and hold that for hours on end?

Unless you are a professional athlete, exercise and physical fitness should be use to enhance the quality of your life not be your life. I guess if you are low IQ and can't think of anything else to do to enjoy life then I guess it's OK. Me, I'd rather spend those 4 hours on the beach enjoying the sun and surf.
 


https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/23/us/new-planking-world-record-trnd/index.html#:~:text=But%20George%20Hood%2C%20who%20set,confirmed%20was%20the%20new%20record.

some of us have to work a real job
this just proves you are a bum
you spend all day at the beach & trolling on a bodybuilding site(s)
probably not just this site

johnny1

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #198 on: August 27, 2020, 03:26:06 AM »
One of the iconic bodybuilding photos of the freak in his prime

johnny1

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Re: Paul Dilette - Freak
« Reply #199 on: August 27, 2020, 03:27:28 AM »
 8)