Author Topic: Dorian Yates kicks Ronnie's ass Hulkster is a punk Bitch and fuck any truce  (Read 3503196 times)

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12600 on: November 08, 2006, 05:53:18 PM »
This like the other is from 1997 !! even with the torn tricep this is just insane !!

suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12601 on: November 08, 2006, 06:00:09 PM »
Also, Sucky just because they weigh the same does not mean their muscles are the same size.  Once again, the body is composed of 60% water.

  And this is relatively stable as far as muscles goes. So we have a scenario where actin and myosin weight the same, and most water lost by bodybuilders during dehydration is subcutaneous. This mean that density is more likely a visual ropoert which depends of some other factor rather than intra-muscular physiological composition.

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On top of that, in top level bodybuilders you have 3-4% fat.  Then, take into consideration what the bones, tendons, ligaments and organs weight.  Because these are all variable, it is impossible to state that Ronnie and Dorian had an equivalent amount of muscle.

  But I never did! ;) I've stated that Dorian has more muscles than the 1999 Coleman, because he was drier. He was drier because he had less subcutaneous water, not necessarily less water inside the muscle. It is you who stated that Ronnie's lats could be as wide and thick as Dorian's at the same bodyweight, despite the fact that Ronnie had clearly bigger quads. In this case, the only possibility for Ronnie having lats as wide and thick as Dorian's would for Dorian to have heavier muscles than Ronnie.

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That is akin to saying a 257 pound lard ass has as much muscle.  Fact, we do not know either of their bodyfat percentages as I know of no reliable bodyfat measurements that were taken; we are assuming.  Second, who is to say that their bones, organs, connective tissue and organs weighed the same' it is literaly impossible.  Then, how much water is really being held on by both bodybuilders.  We assume that Dorian is drier as he looks so, but do we really know?  Thus, I can very easily say that the idea that if I took an equal volume of muscle (say a cube biopsy) from any bodypart of your choosing and weighed them they would not be identical.  There will always be some variability.  SInce fat and water and glycogen stores from one individual to the next differ, the density will differ.  That is it; that is my point.  If you don't believe it, go to any physiological lab in the country that does muscle biopsies an see for yourself.  Question, if actin and myosis is universal and that is all muscle is composed of, would the same truth apply amongst various species.

  The problem with this argument is that there are more variables than the ones you've mentioned. Nothing of this rules out my contention that the difference in density is purely visual and not weight-per-area. Like I said, less subcutaneous water is one possible explanation; the texture and color of their skins could also explain the difference in density as erely a visual rather than physical propoerty. But let's assume you're right to some degree. Would that validate your hypothesis? No. Why? Because it could still be explained as being partially the result of the factors I've mentioned. Regardless, even if your calims were true, it still wouldn't be able to demonstrate that it explains their lats being of equivalent size at the same bodyweight. Furthermore, Dorian's taper was a sgood as Ronnie's from the back, this despite the obvious fact that Dorian's waist is thicker, so odds are that I'm correct about Dorian's lats being wider. ;)

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NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12602 on: November 08, 2006, 06:11:46 PM »
Look at this back & calves  :o

IceCold

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12603 on: November 08, 2006, 06:21:08 PM »
it hasnt even been a week since i last posted and this thread is over 500 pages.

i think my last post was like 460 or so.


like i've said since the very beginning, it isnt so much a question of dorian beating ronnie, but it was proving to hulkster and pumpster that yates is not overated, deserved his scores, and could possibly beat ronnie.

there have been numerous pics and videos to support this.

even people who once thought ronnie would dominate dorian (like probecito) took an unbiased view and actually saw the truth - that dorian could in fact beat ronnie.

numerous quotes have been posted from guys who actually competed against dorian AND ronnie (this does not include you pumpster) and have said how great dorian was, but those quotes were ignored, like every other valid point regarding dorian.
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suckmymuscle

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12604 on: November 08, 2006, 06:23:10 PM »
Sucky, you fail to consider that a muscle is not only myosin, actin and water.  BTW, water in the solid state is less dense than liquid water.  That is fact.  Look at the thread.  
Water molecules spread out when frozen.  Look at any physics book.  I don't want to argue man.  I am correct.

  It is irrelevant whether water or ice is heavier in the same space. Why? Because it doesen't disprove my analogy! My contention is that water varies in physical density in different states, and I am correct regardless of which state is heavier. Furthermore, you still have not demontrated that it's possible for muscles to weight more in a smaller area, because:

 - Most of the water lost due to Sodium restriction is extra-muscular. The body has a very smalle threshold toleration for losing intra-muscular water. Look at Dillet, who once froze onstage due to using to musch lasix. Since this never happened to either Dorian or Ronnie, I'm assuming that their amount of intra-muscular water didn't vary much.

 - Actin and myosin are substances with absolute weights.

 - Water has an absolute weight.

 - There is little variation between Type I and Type II muscle fibers as far as glycogen capacity storage, because the major difference is that the type II synthesize Adenosine Triphosphate quicker.

 - Regardless, all bodybuilders have stored glycogen inside their muscles anyway, due to the carbing up. And since there is a limit ot the amount of glycogen that each muscle fiber can store and sinc ethe number of muscle fibers in a given area is stable, then there's no difference in glycogen levels.

 - Glycogen is stored with three molecules of water for every one of glycogen, which immediately disproves your claims that Dorian's muscles weighted more because they had less water inside. This is impossible. ;)

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 Thus, if we assume that Dorian is the leanest bodybuilder ever' he would by definition be the most dense.  Man, I am supporting your assertion that his density is unparalled.  Why the argument.


  No, you're not, and this is what you don't understand! ::) When I said that Dorian was the densest bodybuilder ever, I was refering especifically to it being a purely visual property. It is you who has been claiming that Dorian's muscles were physically denser than Ronnie's, thus allowing Ronnie to have bigger quads and equivalent lats to Dorian at the similar bodyweight. I, conversely, have maintained that, since Ronnie's quads were clearly bigger and they weighted the same while Dorian looked drier, then that this would mean that the equivalent weight was explained by Dorian's lats being both thicker and wider - his bigger calves couldn't possibly explain the difference. Furthermore, I supplied further evidence for my assertions by stating that Dorian's taper was as good as Ronnie's from the back, this despite the fact that Dorian's waist is obviously thicker. Let it go...no one cares. ;)

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NeoSeminole

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12605 on: November 08, 2006, 06:27:44 PM »
I am pretty much done with this thread.

now you understand why I haven't been posting much lately. The amount of bullshit ND, Sucky, and now Pobrecito spew from their mouths is ridiculous.

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12606 on: November 08, 2006, 06:34:28 PM »
now you understand why I haven't been posting much lately. The amount of bullshit ND, Sucky, and now Pobrecito spew from their mouths is ridiculous.

Oh please I state my case , with facts , pictures and a detailed reason why & how I can to my point of veiw ,and I did all this without resorting to calling Ronnie names , dismissing him as the most overrated bodybuilder of all time , denying his greatness , posting the worse pics to the best pics !

I've always maintained that at their respective best NEITHER would dominate the other it would be a close contest and Dorian would win in the end and I stand by it , you've guys have gone to absurd lenghts to mock Yates dismiss all of his clear advantages and to deny his greatness , again Ronnie Coleman has a deep rooted respect for Dorian Yates ( for a reason ) its just a shame his fans dont , but I suspect you're not so much as fans of Ronnie but are fans of Yates bashing and in the end its all for not , because Dorian had a strangle hold on bodybuilding and history crushes your biased assesments.

IceCold

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12607 on: November 08, 2006, 06:55:47 PM »
Oh please I state my case , with facts , pictures and a detailed reason why & how I can to my point of veiw ,and I did all this without resorting to calling Ronnie names , dismissing him as the most overrated bodybuilder of all time , denying his greatness , posting the worse pics to the best pics !

I've always maintained that at their respective best NEITHER would dominate the other it would be a close contest and Dorian would win in the end and I stand by it , you've guys have gone to absurd lenghts to mock Yates dismiss all of his clear advantages and to deny his greatness , again Ronnie Coleman has a deep rooted respect for Dorian Yates ( for a reason ) its just a shame his fans dont , but I suspect you're not so much as fans of Ronnie but are fans of Yates bashing and in the end its all for not , because Dorian had a strangle hold on bodybuilding and history crushes your biased assesments.


couldnt have said it any better.
R.I.P. DIMEBAG DARRELL ABBOTT (1966-2004)

IceCold

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12608 on: November 08, 2006, 06:56:45 PM »
for hulkster and pumpster


COMING NEXT MONTH IN FLEX

ASK MR. OLYMPIA

WITH JAY CUTLER



haha.

owned.


R.I.P. DIMEBAG DARRELL ABBOTT (1966-2004)

pobrecito

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12609 on: November 08, 2006, 07:14:59 PM »
CAMP COLEMAN DEFEATED!!!! Everyone finally realized that Yates would beat Coleman!

carvedoutofwood

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12610 on: November 08, 2006, 07:20:04 PM »
for hulkster and pumpster


COMING NEXT MONTH IN FLEX

ASK MR. OLYMPIA

WITH JAY CUTLER



haha.

owned.



after ronnies column it will still say 8X mr. o..... and next to dorian it'll still say 6X mr olympia
until next year...

pumpster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12611 on: November 08, 2006, 07:21:12 PM »
Quote
for hulkster and pumpster


COMING NEXT MONTH IN FLEX

ASK MR. OLYMPIA

WITH JAY CUTLER



haha.

owned.

Monster over-use of owned. hahahaahahahaha

pumpster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12612 on: November 08, 2006, 07:22:36 PM »
Quote
Quote from: NeoSeminole on Today at 09:27:44 PM
now you understand why I haven't been posting much lately. The amount of bullshit ND, Sucky, and now Pobrecito spew from their mouths is ridiculous.

Absolutely; their posts are so divorced from reality that they're boring. It's Revenge of the Nerds revisited.

carvedoutofwood

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12613 on: November 08, 2006, 07:26:34 PM »
yes i know i posted this in the other thread also.... and its probably a repost but this MV is good
&mode=related&search=

Matt C

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12614 on: November 08, 2006, 07:54:48 PM »
His calves aren't anywhere NEAR 20" when he's 250lbs maybe 300lbs but no way at 250lbs.

ND - my calves are a little under 16" and it's safe to say Ronnie's calves were far bigger, even at 250.  In 1999, his calves were huge.  Also, I think his best ever showing was 2003.
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Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12615 on: November 08, 2006, 08:21:45 PM »
what is so dumb is that all the ND/suckymyasshole/probecito bullshit reached a peak AFTER these amazing pics came into the light ::):

all they can do now is start posting old pics again to try and do damage control:

 ::)
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pumpster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12616 on: November 08, 2006, 08:25:50 PM »
Quote
Quote from: NarcissisticDeity on Today at 07:59:52 PM
His calves aren't anywhere NEAR 20" when he's 250lbs maybe 300lbs but no way at 250lbs.

ND - my calves are a little under 16" and it's safe to say Ronnie's calves were far bigger, even at 250.  In 1999, his calves were huge.  Also, I think his best ever showing was 2003.

ND & cronies have resorted to fiction as a last resort. Lame.

carvedoutofwood

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12617 on: November 08, 2006, 08:27:29 PM »
while FLEX and CC are making out over there... even ronnie cant get over how good he looks

carvedoutofwood

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12618 on: November 08, 2006, 08:28:49 PM »
ND & cronies have resorted to fiction as a last resort. Lame.

ronnies calves looked great in 99... dorian great? hell no... close, probably not.... but good for any pro...

NeoSeminole

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12619 on: November 08, 2006, 08:35:03 PM »
ND - my calves are a little under 16" and it's safe to say Ronnie's calves were far bigger, even at 250.  In 1999, his calves were huge.  Also, I think his best ever showing was 2003.

Ronnie's calves in 03 were almost the same size as Dorian's.


carvedoutofwood

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12620 on: November 08, 2006, 08:38:53 PM »
Ronnie's calves in 03 compared to Dorian's.



wow that picture really says it all...

nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12621 on: November 08, 2006, 08:41:53 PM »
  It is irrelevant whether water or ice is heavier in the same space. Why? Because it doesen't disprove my analogy! My contention is that water varies in physical density in different states, and I am correct regardless of which state is heavier. Furthermore, you still have not demontrated that it's possible for muscles to weight more in a smaller area, because:

 - Most of the water lost due to Sodium restriction is extra-muscular. The body has a very smalle threshold toleration for losing intra-muscular water. Look at Dillet, who once froze onstage due to using to musch lasix. Since this never happened to either Dorian or Ronnie, I'm assuming that their amount of intra-muscular water didn't vary much.

 - Actin and myosin are substances with absolute weights.

 - Water has an absolute weight.

 - There is little variation between Type I and Type II muscle fibers as far as glycogen capacity storage, because the major difference is that the type II synthesize Adenosine Triphosphate quicker.

 - Regardless, all bodybuilders have stored glycogen inside their muscles anyway, due to the carbing up. And since there is a limit ot the amount of glycogen that each muscle fiber can store and sinc ethe number of muscle fibers in a given area is stable, then there's no difference in glycogen levels.

 - Glycogen is stored with three molecules of water for every one of glycogen, which immediately disproves your claims that Dorian's muscles weighted more because they had less water inside. This is impossible. ;)
 

  No, you're not, and this is what you don't understand! ::) When I said that Dorian was the densest bodybuilder ever, I was refering especifically to it being a purely visual property. It is you who has been claiming that Dorian's muscles were physically denser than Ronnie's, thus allowing Ronnie to have bigger quads and equivalent lats to Dorian at the similar bodyweight. I, conversely, have maintained that, since Ronnie's quads were clearly bigger and they weighted the same while Dorian looked drier, then that this would mean that the equivalent weight was explained by Dorian's lats being both thicker and wider - his bigger calves couldn't possibly explain the difference. Furthermore, I supplied further evidence for my assertions by stating that Dorian's taper was as good as Ronnie's from the back, this despite the fact that Dorian's waist is obviously thicker. Let it go...no one cares. ;)

SUCKMYMUSCLE


 

Sucky, you have completely misunderstood my post.  You are acting like muscle is simply the protein matrix of the body.  By your assertion then, there would be no different grades of beef.  Think about it, muscles (we call it beef) are differentiated by the amount of marbling in them.  That is why you have choice, lean, prime, etc.  That is why a filet mignon is leaner than a ribeye.  However, if you look at that piece of meat, it came from the cross section of a muscle.  Thus, you are wrong my friend.  If indeed actin and myosin (and thus myofibrils) along with water were the only determinants of muscle and thus density; you may have a point.  However, as I have repeatedly pointed out and you have refused to acknowledge is that unless Dorian and Ronnie had equivalent fat and water content; their muscle composition would be different.  Thus, if one had a percentage more bodyfat and held onto more water, the density of the muscle per cubic inch would be different.  The bit about glycogen and water is ridiculous.  Do you think that if Dorian carb depleted and had very little glycogen stores his muscles would be less dense.  Think about it, the densest substance in the muscle tissue is the actin and myosin containing myofibrils.  If you had less water and glycogen in your muscle stores, cubic inch vs cubic inch the depleted muscle would be more dense.  It may not appear larger but that is my point.  If it were more voluminous, i.e. it held onto water and glycogen, it would be less dense.  Moreover, how can you possibly claim per cubic inch each bodybuilder holds onto the same amount of glycogen.  Does my liver hold as much glycogen as a world class runner after carbing up.  I doubt it.  Also, you keep on talking about losing subQ water, without realizing that it is physically impossible to only lose subQ water.  You also lose intravascular volume and by definition intracellular volume.  Take a person and deprive them of water for 10 days.  They will lose water from every conceivable reserve.  Thus, your contention that every bodybuilder will have equal density does not fly.  There are too many variables.  Moreover, although it may one hundredth of a percentage point, thh density of a cross section of muscle from one bodybuilder to another can and will be different.  It is absurd to think differently.  BTW, water expands when it is frozen and that is why its volume to mass ratio is less.  It makes pertinent sense to use water in this analogy, because if a muscle is the same size initially from bodybuilder A to B; you can change bodybuilder's A muscle density by carb loading and not using diuretics.  The muscle expands in size; that is a given.  In that case, the volume has increased and the mass by not as great a degree (glycogen and water are less dense than myofibril tissue).  The density is thus less.  Therefore, the analogy of water expanding is very pertinent.  Just my two cents.  It means little and in the realm of bodybuilding who gives a rat's ass.  In physiology however, you are wrong my friend. 

NeoSeminole

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12622 on: November 08, 2006, 08:42:25 PM »
wow that picture really says it all...

this is why arguing with ND and Sucky is pointless. Ronnie in 03 blows Dorian away. The same reason Dorian beat Shawn Ray in 94 is the same reason 03 Ronnie would beat Dorian.

Hulkster

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12623 on: November 08, 2006, 08:43:49 PM »
ronnies calves looked great in 99... dorian great? hell no... close, probably not.... but good for any pro...

Personally, I even think dorian's CALVES are a bit overrated.

why could I say such a thing you ask?

because they never had this kind of amazing diamamond shape, like those found on say, Jay Cutler.

I don't fall for hype. I fall for facts and evidence. Dorian's calves were not as razor sharp looking as they should be for the "greatest calves of all time"

Like most of dorian's bodyparts, they were huge but lacked great, razor sharp diamond shape, that is desirable on calves::



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nicorulez

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Re: Hulkster I'm calling for a Truce
« Reply #12624 on: November 08, 2006, 08:45:54 PM »
Here is a link that talks about skeletal muscle density and how it is affected based on what it is preserved in.  Interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16154420&dopt=Abstract