Author Topic: why  (Read 19361 times)

Deedee

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Re: why
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2006, 01:23:39 PM »
yes yes it is...

c'mere and lets practice somemore.. :)

k i let class go early and had be 2 becks...Toxic's turned into a lightweight  >:(

I am so out of here in about 6 minutes...

Don't get too trashed tonight, and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!  :)

SuperNatural

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Re: why
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2006, 01:30:34 PM »
The other is that The acceptance of Jesus into your life is the only prerequisite to going to heaven.

According to your "prerequisite" and Christianity's it certainly matters. 

And knowing God's final deciscion doesn't deal with "omnibenevolence"  Actually it is the exact opposite because an "all good" being could not condemn somone to eternal suffering.  I think you meant to say omniscient (all-knowing)

P.S.  I respect your faith.  And your tolerance towards others.  God bless

ToxicAvenger

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Re: why
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2006, 01:32:04 PM »
I am so out of here in about 6 minutes...

Don't get too trashed tonight, and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!  :)

i like soo have to wakre up at 4 am tomorrow to prep my sat lecture  ...i'm gonna have some scotch and go to bed soon...


6 mins..666...assasin...sh ould i worry?
carpe` vaginum!

a_joker10

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Re: why
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2006, 02:20:26 PM »
I might have been over stating the importance of Christianity in going to heaven. I don't know I don't know God's will.
I do believe that Jesus was sent down to show us the path to heaven. There might be others I don't know.
I will leave who will go to heaven up to God for he alone has judgement there.

God is Omnibenevolen. Omnipotent and Omniscience
God protects his flock. If you choose not be good, God will condemn you to protect his flock. God still loves you, but you are responsible for your own actions.
I think that to know God is impossible. To believe in God is not.

I believe that God is love. To ignore his love in what ever form or religion is part of human weakness.
Just as blaming God for what goes wrong in the world.

There are many denominations and religions that work with other faiths in the support of common goals and beliefs. Through understanding of all religions and faiths and the understanding io diversity I think it makes easier to believe in the love of God.

Peace be with you.

Z

SuperNatural

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Re: why
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2006, 02:25:41 PM »

God is Omnibenevolent. Omnipotent and Omniscience

Just as blaming God for what goes wrong in the world.


Peace be with you.



If God is omnipotent then could he not create a world that is free from "wrong."  If he can't then he is not omnipotent, and if he can then he is not "omnibenevolent," for an all-good being would eliminate all wrong by simple moral principle.

I'm not trying to disrespect your beliefs joker10.  I hope that my questions make you think about your very faith, and in turn strengthen every aspect of it. 

And also with you.

a_joker10

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Re: why
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2006, 02:38:48 PM »
God is omnipotent because he made a perfect universe.  God so loved Adam and Eve that he gave them free will.
The world was perfect however they allowed themselves to be tempted. Original Sin.
The Omnibenevolence is in the fact that instead off killing them after they were tempted he made them aware of themselves.
Z

OzmO

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Re: why
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2006, 02:44:02 PM »
Quote
1.) Why is Jesus always depicted as a white European when his race is not from that region?

2.) Why during the supposed time of Jesus no Jewish historian mentioned him?

3.) Why aren't there any Roman court records of his crucifixtion?

4.) Why is the only account of Jesus the New Testament, which the first books appeared at least 60 years after his death, written by people generations later who never knew him?

1.  Beucase the Roman Catholic church did that for political and racial reasons

2.  You have to remember, there was no internet, AP wire, newspapers, TV.  It would be real easy for news of any incident to be forgotten of not noticed at all.

3.  Just becuase they haven't found any records don;t mean they don;t exsist.  However,  one possible explanation from Barbara Thering's book "Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls"    Is that the Jesus was actually a decendant of the linie of David and the whole thing is really about a political stuggle to put the Line of David back on the Jewish throne removing Herod.  Jesus is refered to in the scrolls as "the sayer of smooth things" who was person who taught forgiveness, tolerence  and love.

4.  They were stories past down.  I don't think anyone thought to write them down right away becuase perhaps the deciples were still alive preaching his word.

ToxicAvenger

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Re: why
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2006, 02:58:23 PM »

I do believe that Jesus was sent down to show us the path to heaven.


but christians believe jesus is god..so god sent himself down?

hmmmm

sounds wishy washy lord of the ringish to me bro..
carpe` vaginum!

ToxicAvenger

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Re: why
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2006, 03:00:01 PM »
God is omnipotent because he made a perfect universe.  God so loved Adam and Eve that he gave them free will.
The world was perfect however they allowed themselves to be tempted. Original Sin.
The Omnibenevolence is in the fact that instead off killing them after they were tempted he made them aware of themselves.

enter the tsunami
enter aids
enter starvrvation

oh wait..you've lived in the US all your life so have never seen a 10 yr old  girl with sores on her face beg for a piece of bread in 110 degree sun..or suck cock behing a bush..

I HAVE ..SO f**k GOD..OR BETTER MAKE HIM WALK A MILE IN THAT GIRLS SHOES

you've never seen a father amputate his eldest son and middle daughters limbs so they can beg more effenciently(people give more to amputees) just so the youngest son can  go to school

  I HAVE ...SO f**k GOD..OR BETTER MAKE HIM WALK A MILE IN THAT FATHERS SHOES


carpe` vaginum!

a_joker10

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Re: why
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2006, 03:17:47 PM »
God gave us the power to solve these problems.
Medicine, prosperity etc.
The problem isn't with God it is with human greed.
I see homeless people everyday. I live in a cold place. If you live on the streets in the winter you die. So in order to prevent this our system of government provides some level of care to the poor.

It isn't God's fault that the rich take from the poor. In every major religion God frowns upon this.

People constantly blame God for the problems of man. But man can fix this. We can support the less fortunate, we can provide safety to those in need.

Next time you think of the UN remember Somailia, Sudan, Rwanda, Ethiopia,Chad, Congo, Mozambique.
It is the global conscience that is not helping these places. It is the world.
It is too easy to blame God, the U.S, or any one nation.
But it is a global problem not God's.
The liberals don't want to help because it might seam like imperialism or some other crazy notion.
The conservatives don't want to help because they should be able to help themselves.
I believe both sides are wrong.

I am Canadian by the way.
Z

SuperNatural

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Re: why
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2006, 03:30:48 PM »
God is omnipotent because he made a perfect universe.  God so loved Adam and Eve that he gave them free will.
The world was perfect however they allowed themselves to be tempted. Original Sin.
The Omnibenevolence is in the fact that instead off killing them after they were tempted he made them aware of themselves.

Althouh Toxic put it in a very interesting (and truthful) way, he is very much correct.

You see the problem of evil is so incredibly challenging for the classical conception of God.  Let us take the example of free will.  So God is omniscient (all-knowing), therefore he sees the future devestation that will take place on this world.  Bombs will be dropped, people will starve and people will be tortured in his holy name.  Say I was going to have sex with some girl.  And upon my intercourse I had a sudden preminition of omniscience.  I see the future and realize that my future son will grow to be a serial rapist/murder.  He may show me love and sometimes worship me, but in general this kid will do the world harm... horrible harm.  Would it be morally acceptible for me to create this child?

Now throw the fact that I am omnipotent in to this equation.  I can have sex and ensure that my son is purely good (after all, I can do everything).  I can also ensure he has "free will" as did Adam and Eve, but the only difference is I created my son purely good and therefore all that he may do is purely good and yet it is still very "free" in action.

Some may say, "God allows evil into the world to ensure we appreciate what is good."  The problem here is with God's omnipotence.  If God can do everything then he can make us so we appreciate what is good without the suffering of others.

Now a preacher may preach forever about how suffering is punishment for sin, but like Toxic has pointed out, he has never held a little kid stricken with smallpox in his arms, listening to the kid cry because he knows that his life is soon to come to a very painful and sad end.

ToxicAvenger

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Re: why
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2006, 03:35:07 PM »
God gave us the power to solve these problems.
Medicine, prosperity etc.



really so we can solve tidal waves (tsunamis) and volcanoes and horricanes.....   ::)


Quote
The problem isn't with God it is with human greed.
I see homeless people everyday. I live in a cold place.


well its that asshole that created human greed right?

i mean GOD MADE THE DEVIL

so  HE MADE GREED ALSO.


btw.. a certain % of a muslims incom is mandatorily suppoed to go to the poor...this one i'm sure of...

too bad 99% muslims dont practice it..
carpe` vaginum!

a_joker10

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Re: why
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2006, 03:45:03 PM »
Free will is an important concept. It means that we are free to do what we want without God interfering. If God interfered there is no free will.
That is why the concept of Judgement is important. Without Judgement there can be no mercy. Without mercy there is no Omnibenevolence.

We have the means to survive natural distasters. Like building better buildings researching better medicine. But a natural disaster is part of this world. Our world is no longer perfect. We should figure out how to solve it and move on. This is the world we inherited and we must make it work.

I think that free will is the greatest of God's gifts.
Z

SuperNatural

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Re: why
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2006, 03:55:00 PM »
Free will is an important concept. It means that we are free to do what we want without God interfering. If God interfered there is no free will.

Wow!  God created us.  I'm not sure if you know the complete philosophical concepts of free will vs. Determinsim, but an omnipotent and omniscient cause for an effect would certainly be considered "interfering."

And the whole concept of free will in the Bible is very debatable.  Can you find in the Bible where free will is spoken of?  I'm not going to get into such an enormous argument for or against free will, but you won't find it in the Bible.  The concept was postulated many years later by the Catholic church.

SuperNatural

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Re: why
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2006, 04:01:27 PM »
P.S.  Take some time to truly understand omnibenevolence (all-good) omnipotence (all-powerful) and omniscient (all-knowing)  By understanding these important concepts you can better comprehend your faith in God. 

Take these questions for example:  Can God make things which he cannot subsequently control? 

Can God make rules which bind himself?

Really think about how these questions provide a paradox to God's omnipotence.

a_joker10

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Re: why
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2006, 04:14:58 PM »
Free will as a concept is based on the fact that.
Adam and Eve were not under the mind control of the seperant when they were tempted.
They were tempted the took the forbidden fruit and the rest is history.

If free will didn't exist then why would God choose them to eat the fruit?

The concept of God's plan is determinism. But we have the freedom to do what we want I would call that free will.

I will and thank you.
Z

FREAKgeek

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Re: why
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2006, 04:23:46 PM »
Quit sabotaging my thread Toxic, u fucking junkie.

FREAKgeek

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Re: why
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2006, 04:42:01 PM »
1.  Beucase the Roman Catholic church did that for political and racial reasons

2.  You have to remember, there was no internet, AP wire, newspapers, TV.  It would be real easy for news of any incident to be forgotten of not noticed at all.

3.  Just becuase they haven't found any records don;t mean they don;t exsist.  However,  one possible explanation from Barbara Thering's book "Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls"    Is that the Jesus was actually a decendant of the linie of David and the whole thing is really about a political stuggle to put the Line of David back on the Jewish throne removing Herod.  Jesus is refered to in the scrolls as "the sayer of smooth things" who was person who taught forgiveness, tolerence  and love.

4.  They were stories past down.  I don't think anyone thought to write them down right away becuase perhaps the deciples were still alive preaching his word.

1.) There are plenty of denominations outside the Catholic Church that depicts a European Jesus. I can't think of one that doesn't.

2.) You have got to be kidding me. Jesus's ministry composed of curing countless people of all types of illnesses, raised people from the dead, "driving demons out", etc. He turned water to wine, walked on water, fed 5000 people with a loaf of bread and some fish. He preached to thousands audibly on hillsides, angered old school thought to the point of getting stoned to death, etc.. HE CLAIMED TO BE THE SON OF GOD and you're telling me this would be hardly noticed? This wouldn't be escalating news and gossip? It's laughable how there isn't a shred, not a single account written about this anywhere else that confirms the Bible.

3.) can't comment on 3, don't know where you're comming from here.

4.) Funny how "stories past down" are worded with such volume of detail as if it were yesterday. I am having a real hard time believing that such dialog can be passed with such accuracy, with multiple points of view and narration.  It reeks of a made up story.

FREAKgeek

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Re: why
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2006, 04:48:32 PM »
Free will is an important concept. It means that we are free to do what we want without God interfering. If God interfered there is no free will.


Then why do Christians pray to God? Isn't praying to God asking for God's interference?

SuperNatural

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Re: why
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2006, 05:30:54 PM »

If free will didn't exist then why would God choose them to eat the fruit?


Why would God create the fruit if he knew they would eat it?  He is omniscient and omnipotent after all.

a_joker10

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Re: why
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2006, 06:21:16 PM »

The easy answer is God  has a plan that I don't understand and cannot comprehend. That defeats free will and relies on Determinism.
An other answer is that God is not O3.

I think he lets us do what we want out of love, like a parent. Omnibenevolent means that God would do no evil.
Also without evil how can one comprehend good.

God is all 3 but what moderates each of 3 is the other.

Just like your arguement it is circular, but that is what I believe.

Z

SuperNatural

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Re: why
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2006, 07:26:53 PM »
That is cool Joker10.  God Bless you man

OzmO

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Re: why
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2006, 07:32:17 PM »
Quote
1.) There are plenty of denominations outside the Catholic Church that depicts a European Jesus. I can't think of one that doesn't.

2.) You have got to be kidding me. Jesus's ministry composed of curing countless people of all types of illnesses, raised people from the dead, "driving demons out", etc. He turned water to wine, walked on water, fed 5000 people with a loaf of bread and some fish. He preached to thousands audibly on hillsides, angered old school thought to the point of getting stoned to death, etc.. HE CLAIMED TO BE THE SON OF GOD and you're telling me this would be hardly noticed? This wouldn't be escalating news and gossip? It's laughable how there isn't a shred, not a single account written about this anywhere else that confirms the Bible.

3.) can't comment on 3, don't know where you're comming from here.

4.) Funny how "stories past down" are worded with such volume of detail as if it were yesterday. I am having a real hard time believing that such dialog can be passed with such accuracy, with multiple points of view and narration.  It reeks of a made up story.

I was just giving some possible explanations...

Here's what i think, sorry if it pisses anyone off.

1.  Beucase the Roman Catholic church did that for political and racial reasons.  Until the 1500's i believe, it was only the roman catholic church.  Not until Martin Luther seperated from the church did other denominations start popping up.  (Lutheren Church)  By then the white Jesus was accepted becuase all the paintings from the chruch made him white with blue eyes. 

2.  Beucase the story of Jesus as we know it was really a political struggle between the house of david and house of herod.   Read the new testiment with that pardigm and it will make some sense.  The house of David was trying to get back into power.  Becuase of this a historian wouldn't write about it in the religous sense.  If you view the new testiment as a historical record you have to accept the idea that it's one sided.

3.  I don't think he was crucified by romans.  I think it was a purely Jewish doing with Roman support for fear that if the house of David came into power it could start a revolution.  And the house of Herod wasn;t willing to give up their power.

4.  Jesus had a message.  In a time of savageness, suffering and Killing.  Jesus preached tolerence, fogiveness, and love as the path to heaven.  Whether he died ont he cross or not there was a story of a ressurection.  As you said, rumor and gossip, ran rapid through the people.  This message and the story of his ressurection  gained a following.  At some point someone decided to write the stories down and there it may have got exaggerated.  Remember most of these gospels were written 40 to 60 years later.  Also at that time the gnostic gospels were written.  Then 250 years after that, when christianity was a very large movment it was adopted by Constantinople at the concil of Nicia.  And the story was really perverted  to allow those in power to control the masses.

Now, with pure respect to other people's faith.  And the fact that i really don't truely know what really happened, I tend not to try and ram my theory down people's throats too much.

ToxicAvenger

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Re: why
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2006, 11:00:04 PM »
Quit sabotaging my thread Toxic, u fucking junkie.

you mean quit askingya tough questions..



ok .fine..i will..

religious people are easily ratteled.

cheers.
carpe` vaginum!

Johnny Apollo

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Re: why
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2006, 12:42:16 AM »
He's Jewish.
Now tell me what most jews look like.
The jews I have seen are fairly light skinned.

The image of Jesus has changed over 2000 years. But it doen't matter because christianity has nothing to do with the physical image of Jesus and all to do with his message.

By the way what does Muhammad look like.


Jews look everywhere from extremly dark to blonde hair and blue eyed.

Jesus was from a part of the world where everyone is extremly dark skinned. There's actually a lot of information about what jesus would of looked like.


This is an artists construction from skulls found in the same area and same time jesus lived.



He would of been about 5'1,105lbs.