hot dogs

[MidniteRambo]

  It seems awfully picky to talk about a little fructose! If that is all you consume, then that is bad. If you are worried about a little ketchup your meals must be pretty boring. If you are getting into contest condition, one thing, but just training and even staying lean, man give yourself a break 2 teaspoons of ketchup aint gonna kill your metabolism or even add  a pound onto you. Then again I live in Chicago and the beef here kicks ass so it is nice to dip it in a little sauce every now and then. Stockyards!!!!

hey, enjoy yourself.... this debate is about ready to drive me to drink (which isn't all that helful to testosterone OR metabolism)

[Mick33]

 

[The BEAST]

My goodness the whole ketchup thing AGAIN...

From experience my ex-boyfriend LOVES ketchup-would go through more then 1/4 cup with a hamburger.  If we ever went out and he had to use those little packets he would get pissed because he needed like 20 of them.  He looks AMAZING-very "manly" even though he isn't dieting he hovers at about 6% or less, always has a 6-pack.  He has been eating ketchup this way since he was a wee little boy and he somehow turned into a big 190 lb (natural) muscled man.  Having a little (or more then a little) ketchup is ok and won't turned you into a woman.  Like someone else mentioned if you are contest dieting you may want to think about it but getting so crazy over ketchup seems silly.  I think the hot dog is the bigger offender and yes he ate those on occasion as well.

[MidniteRambo]

My goodness the whole ketchup thing AGAIN...

From experience my ex-boyfriend LOVES ketchup-would go through more then 1/4 cup with a hamburger.  If we ever went out and he had to use those little packets he would get pissed because he needed like 20 of them.  He looks AMAZING-very "manly" even though he isn't dieting he hovers at about 6% or less, always has a 6-pack.  He has been eating ketchup this way since he was a wee little boy and he somehow turned into a big 190 lb (natural) muscled man.  Having a little (or more then a little) ketchup is ok and won't turned you into a woman.  Like someone else mentioned if you are contest dieting you may want to think about it but getting so crazy over ketchup seems silly.  I think the hot dog is the bigger offender and yes he ate those on occasion as well.

well I think the above CONCLUSIVE anecdotal evidence has ended the debate.

[buffbodz]

In RI they have these joints called New York Systems.  The wieners are cut from these 4' ropes into about 4" dogs.  Grilled and smothered with meatsuce, onions, mustard and celery salt.  You have 1 you taste it for days.  From what I gather you can only get these things in RI.  I can only imagine what kind of meat these things, gaggers, as they are affectionally called by the locals.  None of the other 49 states sell em.  That right their speaks volumes.  Anybody ever had the pleasure?

[The BEAST]

well I think the above CONCLUSIVE anecdotal evidence has ended the debate.

LMFAS...I thought this would help end the debate

[Princess L]

Repeat

There are more important things to obsess about.  Read the studies.  The cumulative effect you're referring to is through transdermal administration.  If that's not the case, provide evidence to the contrary.

Oh, and just what ingredient in a bottle of Heinz is a paraben?

OK, "Princess" why don't you represent that instead of a single muscle and fitness article you have read each and every one of these articles (studies demonstrating an estrogen-mimic effect of parabens)

You’re the one who repeatedly brings up the Muscle & Fitness article.  I just reprinted it for everyone to read.

and feel qualified to now advise posters that ingestion of parabens is completely safe and not better avoided

None of the studies you cited, nor any others have indicated there is ANY issue with parabens and condiment usage.  These studies have concluded the cumulative effects are transdermal – THROUGH THE SKIN.

Blair, R. M., Fang, H., Branham, W. S., Hass, B. S., Dial, S. L., Moland, C. L., Tong, W., SHi, L., Perkins, R., and Sheehan, D. M. (2000). The estrogen receptor relative binding affinities of 188 natural and xenochemicals: structural diversity of ligands. Toxicological Sciences 54, 138-153.

Byford, J. R., Shaw, L. E., Drew, M. G., Pope, G. S., Sauer, M. J., and Darbre, P. D. (2002). Oestrognic activity of parabens in MCF7 human breast cancer cells. Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology 80, 49-60.

Darbre, P. D., Byford, J. R., Shaw, L. E., Hall, S., Coldham, N. G., Pope, G. S., and Sauer, M. J. (2003). Oestrogenic activity of benzylparaben. Journal of Applied Toxicology 23, 43-51.

Darbre, P. D., Byford, J. R., Shaw, L. E., Horton, R. A., Pope, G. S., and Sauer, M. (2002). Oestrogenic activity of isobutylparaben In vitro and In vivo. Journal of Applied Toxicology 22, 219-226.

Inui, M., Tetsuya, A., Takenaka, S., Inui, H., Nakazawa, M., Ueda, M., Watanabe, H., Mori, C., Iguchi, T., and Miyatake, K. (2003). Effects o f UV screens and preservatives on vitellogenin and choriogenin production in male medaka (Oryzias latipes). Toxicology 194, 43-50.

Kang, K.-S., Cho, S.-D., and Lee, Y.-S. (2002). Additive estrogenic activities of the binary mixtures of four estrogenic chemicals in recombinant yeast expressing estrogen receptor. Journal of Veterinary Science 3, 1-5.

Lemini, C., Silva, G., Timossi, C., Luque, D., Valverde, A., and Gonzales-Martinez, M. (1997). Estrogenic effects of p-hydroxybenzoic acid in CD1 mice. 130-134.

Okubo, T., Yokoyama, Y., Kano, K., and Kano, I. (2001). ER-dependent estrogenic activity of parabens assessed by proliferation of human breast cancer

Pedersen, K. L., Pedersen, S. N., Christiansen, L. B., Korgaard, B., and Bjerregaard, P. (2000). The preservatives ethyl-, propyl- and butylparaben are oestrogenic in an in vivo fish assay. Pharmacology & Toxicology 86, 110-113.

Routledge, E. J., Parker, J., Odum, J., Ashby, J., and Sumpter, J. P. (1998). Some alkyl hydroxy benzoate preservatives (parabens) are estrogenic. Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology 153, 12-19.

Vinggaard, A. M., Kroner, W., Lund, K. H., Bolz, U., and Peterson, J. H. (2000). Identification and quatification of estrogenic compounds in recycled and virgin paper for household use as determined by an in vitro yeast estrogen screen and chemical analysis. Chemical Research in Toxicology 13, 1214-1222.

Fisher, J. S., Turner, K. J., Brown, D., and Sharpe, R. M. (1999). Effect of neonatal exposure to estrogenic compounds on development of the ducts of rat testis through puberty to adulthood. Environmental Health Perspectives 107, 397-405.

Kang, K.-S., Che, J.-H., Ryu, D.-Y., Kim, T.-W., Li, G.-X., and Lee, Y.-S. (2002). Decreased sperm number and motile activity on the F1 offspring maternally exposed to butyl p-hydroxybenzoic acid (butyl paraben). Journal of Veterinary Medical Science 64, 227-235.

Oishi, S. (2002a). Effects of butyl paraben on the male reproductive system in mice. Archives of Toxicology 76, 423-429.

Oishi, S. (2002b). Effects of propyl paraben on the male reproductive system. Food and Chemical Toxicology 40, 1807-1813.

Let me guess, you don't actually know.  (Sort of like when you ASSumed that Brewers Yeast, since it was a vegetable source of protein, was therefore an incomplete source of protein and therefore dutifully reported such to another poster that it was an incomplete protein.  Of course, completely false, as proven by actually reading the label and observing the amino acid profile).

There were no assumptions.

And by the way "Princess" the high fructose corn syrup in ketchup and the high fat content of mayo isn't all that good for you either, but I'm sure you knew that.

This is not about HFCS or fat.  It’s about parabens in condiments and the fact that there is no reason to eliminate them from average persons lifestyle.  There are far more important things to worry about.  I think Mick said it best.

Please stop making assumptions about me.  I have been around here long enough and demonstrated a fair amount of knowledge that is generally respected.  I have never claimed to know everything and generally do not participate in topics for which I have no background.

[Mick33]

  You have WOWed me once again. You're great. Let's have dinner.....maybe burgers and ketchup?

[MidniteRambo]

Really, what background do you have on testosterone levels, why are you inserting yourself on an issue which doesn't effect your biology (your profile by the way says you are a 130 year old female).  Is your beard not growing as quickly as previously, are your T levels falling?  The fact that you got so worked up on an issue which has no direct application to your situation speaks for itself.

And I SERIOUSLY doubt you've reviewed the literature I listed to verify your statement regarding the studies dealing with skin exposure.  Further, I don't care one whit what others think your reputation for knowledge is.  In my limited exposure to you, you misinformed someone about a supplement near and dear to my heart (twice) and inserted yourself into a debate that involves male not female physiology.  Not really impressive from my boat.  If guys want to heap praise upon you because most guys will kiss the butt of a woman they think may be attractive, that's their issue, not mine.  

[Mick33]

 

[Princess L]

Really, what background do you have on testosterone levels, why are you inserting yourself on an issue which doesn't effect your biology (your profile by the way says you are a 130 year old female).

This has nothing to do with male vs female physiology; it’s about the “Ketchup contains Methylparaben which is a paraben which stimulates an estrogenic response in the body” statement which has been misinterpreted. {Side note:  Parabens have a large effect on females – read the studies and the relationship to breast cancer}.

What you have failed to recognize or acknowledge is the fact that "Since 2000, 13 research studies have shown that various types of parabens (methyl, ethyl, propyl, benzyol and benzyl) act like estrogen in animals and in tissue culture.  However, the estrogenic activity occurs only when parabens are applied to the skin, not when ingested"  http://www.breastcancerfund.org/site/pp.asp?c=kwKXLdPaE&b=1203361

(just one link to what is repeatedly echoed in the scientific community)

Is your beard not growing as quickly as previously, are your T levels falling?  The fact that you got so worked up on an issue which has no direct application to your situation speaks for itself.

Someone got a little worked up.

And I SERIOUSLY doubt you've reviewed the literature I listed to verify your statement regarding the studies dealing with skin exposure. 

There go those assumptions again.
Still waiting for some contradictory evidence.

Further, I don't care one whit what others think your reputation for knowledge is.  In my limited exposure to you, you misinformed someone about a supplement near and dear to my heart (twice)

Take that issue to the thread(s) in question.

and inserted yourself into a debate that involves male not female physiology.  Not really impressive from my boat.

Again, not a gender specific issue.

If guys want to heap praise upon you because most guys will kiss the butt of a woman they think may be attractive, that's their issue, not mine. 

Please stay on topic and leave my butt out of it.

It’s easy to read an article in a magazine or on the net and trust the author has done their due diligence and presented all of the facts, but we all know that doesn’t always happen.

[Princess L]

  You have WOWed me once again. You're great. Let's have dinner.....maybe burgers and ketchup?

lol

I don't do ground meat (don't get me started), but a steak sounds great!  And  I put ketchup on my steak!

[Sculpter]

Gee Princess, you don't do ground meat but a steak sounds great to you.Do you actually know how contradictory (in a way) that statement is?No, i'm not trying to attack/be a wise a$$ towards you here either just so you know.

[Arnold jr]

Gee Princess, you don't do ground meat but a steak sounds great to you.Do you actually know how contradictory (in a way) that statement is?No, i'm not trying to attack/be a wise a$$ towards you here either just so you know.

You cannot be serious

[Sculpter]

Yeah I am, "but" it also depends on what you consider to be "ground" meat.Hamburger is a "ground" meat.It is ground from meat that you would call steak.See my point?

[Arnold jr]

Yeah I am, "but" it also depends on what you consider to be "ground" meat.Hamburger is a "ground" meat.It is ground from meat that you would call steak.See my point?

Beef, ground, 70% lean / 30% fat, crumbles, cooked, pan-browned

Serving 3oz

cal 230
fat 15g
sat fat 6g
trans fat 1g
chol 75mg
protein 22g

Beef, round, top round, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, all grades, cooked,

Serving 3oz

cal 159
fat 6g
sat fat 3g
trans fat 0
chol 57mg
protein 27g

Beef, short loin, top loin, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, all grades, cooked,

Serving 3oz

cal 164
fat 7g
sat fat 3g
trans fat
chol 49mg
protein 25g

Good difference between steak and ground beef. Also note that all servings were based on 3oz...hardly anyone only eats 3oz of ground beef when they eat it.

Nutritional breakdowns from: http://www.nutritiondata.com/index.html

[Princess L]

Gee Princess, you don't do ground meat but a steak sounds great to you.Do you actually know how contradictory (in a way) that statement is?No, i'm not trying to attack/be a wise a$$ towards you here either just so you know.

You cannot be serious

Well, there's a little more to it (my personal reasoning) Aj.  My father was in the meat business for MANY years.  With all the  stories I heard, it's a wonder I'm not a vegetarian.    Also, when meat is ground it has a million times more "surface" to quickly spread any bacteria (think e-coli) than a slab of that same meat.  That's why they tell you to cook hamburger and other ground meats well done, but that same recommendation does not apply to a steak or pork chop.  But I digress, it's just a "personal" thing...

[Sculpter]

Ok, but my point Arnold is that beef is beef.Just depends on which part of the beast the meat was cut from.I used to work in a supermarket & asked the meat cutter that once & that was the way he described it to me.Maybe he was just a lazy butcher?