The Top Ten Lies Told by Pros

[Figo]

And what is your solution to this whole thing?........

Are you just gonna be little "Johnny-on-the-spot" with the refresh button?

Constantly clicking on it day in and day out, just so you can come in here and come to the rescue of your so called "bodybuilding heroes"

No. Never called anybody a hero, neither.

There's more to life than defending grown men who can think for themselves, son.

I'm not defending anyone, I simply stated that your comment of all pros are liars is unecessary, when you simply disagree over something trivial.

[body88]

"Science". 


The typical supp "company" consists of finding out whatever substance is "hot" in the bb community right now, buying several kilos of it in raw powder form from China, hiring day laborers at minimum wage to stuff it into capsules, getting some fancy bottle labels printed up, and starting a website.  I could run one of these operations out of my garage.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.  I said the major players, not fools like Polumbo and the like.  As I said, I usually work with mainstream companies such as Pepsi, but after working with a few of the large supplement companies, my opinion has changed on them.  You could certainly run a supplement business from your garage, but it wouldn't be worth over 100 million bones. 

The big supplement companies have labs, they spend a lot of money on RD and they are out to push the envelope when it comes to supplementation.  Fat burners and pro hormones are good examples of this.

Do you know why a lot of supplement companies market like they do?  Their hardcore audience is dumb.  To them extremes are cool.  Look at the "sport" of bb.  It's based on extremes!  Look at the more mainstream EAS ads....they are marketing their products much differently to mainstream consumers and athletes.

[MCWAY]

Oh please it has NOTHING to do with that.  It has to do with the fact that the size of bodybuilders has increased 10 fold in the last 30 years.  People like you want to attribute it to new developments in nutrition, training, or supplements.  That's bullshit and you know it!  It's D R U G S that have changed bodybuilding.  Guys 30 years ago weren't abusing IGF, GH, Slin like they are today.  Are all pros using everything under the sun?  Of course not.  But you have this puritanical, squeaky clean image of bodybuilding and it's complete bullshit.  These supplement companies make BILLIONS off of this deceit.  To you that's acceptable because that's the way the "real world" works.  You know your ass is on atleast HRT doses right now to maintain your current size.  The minute you come off the drugs your ass would shrink back down to normal size especially at your age.  Yet at 40 some odd years you're still living the lie because it's your livelihood and way of life.  Always has been.  That's all you know is bodybuilding.   

I’d hardly call Chick’s image of bodybuilding “puritanical” or “squeaky clean”. I believe his point was that, contrary to your earlier implication, he didn’t start injecting everything but the kitchen sink, the second he inherited his dad’s/brother’s/uncle’s cement weights in the garage.

To top it all off, the lion's share of supplement users aren't bodybuilders, don't want to be bodybuilders, and could care less about who wins the Olympia, the Universe, the Arnold Classic, the Nationals, or any other bodybuilding contests.

[Van_Bilderass]

You have no clue as to what the supp companies spend their money on....I do.

Then you should do so...it's got to pay better than posting on this forum all day

Muscletech started in some guys kitchen right (by their own admission). Even then the ads were talking about "labs" and "research". There was some type of partnership with Musclemag Intl., Greg Zulak writing ad copy disguised as articles.

Goatboy is spot on on how it works. You need good marketing and if you have that you can sell absolute garbage.

[Van_Bilderass]

after working with a few of the large supplement companies, my opinion has changed on them.  You could certainly run a supplement business from your garage, but it wouldn't be worth over 100 million bones. 

The big supplement companies have labs, they spend a lot of money on RD and they are out to push the envelope when it comes to supplementation.  Fat burners and pro hormones are good examples of this.

Pro hormones were sold by the small companies only, especially the last decade. Or they were shell companies. Too much risk. But if you intend to have money for actual funded studies like Muscletech you have to start at the bottom.

Which companies apart from Muscletech actually do studies and serious R&D and have their own labs.

[Captain Equipoise]

I forgot to add this to my “essay” .

Tell them to eat high protein, and you’ll hear some lecture about how the body can’t digest more than 30 grams of protein per meal or that the RDA is blah, blah, yak, yak.

Tell them to eat high carbs, then you’ll get some spiel about insulin.

Plus, some people's diets aren't as good as they think they are. Lord knows, that was the case for me.

We liike to call those little things 'facts'

 

[tbombz]

You're kidding right?  LMAO!  Wow!  The only supplement actually proven to be worth the money is creatine. And I can get all the creatine I need from red meat.  

youd have to eat several pounds daily, but yeah.

[body88]

Muscletech started in some guys kitchen right (by their own admission). Even then the ads were talking about "labs" and "research". There was some type of partnership with Musclemag Intl., Greg Zulak writing ad copy disguised as articles.

Goatboy is spot on on how it works. You need good marketing and if you have that you can sell absolute garbage.

What experience do you have with companies like ISI Brands, VPX, EAS - etc?  How have you worked with them.  How are you in the know?  I can tell you for a fact there are legit supplement companies that have labs and that pour tons of cash into r&d.

What you're saying it true to a point....but all the supplement companies are not out to do what you say.  "Good marketing" depends on what you are trying to do.  Marketing to bodybuilding meatheads is easy.  Make it look extreme and say it has the power of steriods and you have a winner.  It's not so easy with athletes who are tested by the NCAA.  To athletes "warning/powerful" and "steriod like results" are not a good thing.

[Van_Bilderass]

What experience do you have with companies like ISI Brands, VPX, EAS, BSN - etc?  How have you worked with them.  How are you in the know?  I can tell you for a fact there are legit supplement companies that have labs and that pour tons of cash into r&d.

I don't have any inside knowledge but from reading I've formed an opinion regardless. For example, a company like VPX sells BCAA ethyl esters. Where's the data showing these are any better than regular BCAAs (might be worse from several aspects for all I know)? Muscletech may have funded some study showing their Leucine activates mTOR or whatever but where's the data showing it performs any better than regular leucine and actually increases muscle mass in trained subjects? The scientific support for HMB is strong as hell compared to most other supplements but does it do anything in the real world? Not so much.

My guess is that most of the R&D cash goes into researching marketing strategies.

[body88]

I don't have any inside knowledge but from reading I've formed an opinion regardless. For example, a company like VPX sells BCAA ethyl esters. Where's the data showing these are any better than regular BCAAs? Muscletech may have funded some study showing their Leucine activates mTOR or whatever but where's the data showing it performs any better than regular leucine and actually increases muscle mass in trained subjects?

What you are saying is true, but don't confuse that with product development and r&d.  VPX has a staff of chemists and they develop product on-site.  VPX and others don't fund studies because they don't have to.  People buy their product no matter what.  Only a very small percentage of lifters are as smart as you.  Most don't look at research when shopping for product.  Athletes want to know the bottom line.  Typical lifters want to know the bottom line.  The vast majority of those who buy these supps cant comprehend the studies that you speak of.  Muscletech is a good example of a company that targets the ultra serious bodybuilder.  They don't target the NCAA athlete.  They have to back their claims because their customers are bodybuilder who understand the science.  That said, just because a company does utilize cash flow to showcase their findings, that does not mean that they don't research and push the envelope with their products.  ISI and VPX are two companies who spend a lot of money on product development. 

Again, these companies don't spend big numbers on marketing.  Major companies spend much more.  They also tend to stick to print within their own industry....aside from some of the bigger companies.  Your assumption on marketing dollars is wrong.  What cutting edge marketing are these people doing?  Print?  It's all the same shit.

[Van_Bilderass]

Here is what you buy if you want a good supplement - imo:

ISI
VPX
Muscletech
Eas


There is a lot of bullshit out there, but the same can be said for any industry.  The major players in this game are legit. 

If you need protein and creatine and fish oil or whatever non-gimmick staple, find a vendor selling high quality product in bulk. Vitamins from reputable companies like NOW Foods for example, not "Animal Stack multi packs". The guys with huge marketing budgets overprice the products. I would never buy protein from those since I know I can get even higher quality much cheaper.

[The Wizard of Truth]

Imagine how much cheaper Muscletech products would be if they didnt have to pay all the guys that endorse them??

[body88]

If you need protein and creatine and fish oil or whatever non-gimmick staple, find a vendor selling high quality product in bulk. Vitamins from reputable companies like NOW Foods for example, not "Animal Stack multi packs". The guys with huge marketing budgets overprice the products. I would never buy protein from those since I know I can get even higher quality much cheaper.

Again, normal consumers in this market don't think like that.  I have worked with the companies that you talk like you know everything about.  As I said above, they care about developing great products and creating cutting edge supplements.  I have a feeling nothing I say will sway you and thats ok.

Huge marketing budgets?  Do you understand what drives sales costs?  What ROI is?  Why they spend on marketing?

[body88]

Imagine how much cheaper Muscletech products would be if they didnt have to pay all the guys that endorse them??

You have no idea how cash flow works do you?  You think their sponsorship expenditure is what drives their sales costs exclusively LOL.  Tell me, why do you think Muscletech charges what they do for their products?

[The Wizard of Truth]

They charge so much because they have a huge marketing drive,thats what Im saying

[body88]

They charge so much because they have a huge marketing drive,thats what Im saying

No it's not.  They don't charge what they do because of their marketing budgets.  Effective marketing gives you a much larger RIO than the initial investment.  Also, that budget does not effect sales costs exclusively.  Thats the market.  These companies charge what they do for their products because they can.  The market dictates that. Muscletech is a "high end" company.  Just like a high end  car they can charge more.  You see all the studies and such.  That cost money and that backs up their costs.

Initially you linked Muscletechs product cost to their sponsorships. 

[The Wizard of Truth]

No it's not.  They don't charge what they do because of their marketing budgets.  Effective marketing gives you a much larger RIO than the initial investment.  Also, that budget does not effect sales costs exclusively.  Thats the market.  These companies charge what they do for their products because they can.  The market dictates that.

Initially you linked Muscletechs product cost to their sponsorships. 

Yes it is

[body88]

Yes it is

How do you know this?  I think you are talking out of your ass.  Explain to me how Muscletech creates their cost structure, why it is the way it is and what kind of ROI they expect from their marketing expenditures.  Also, if marketing is the reason why they charge so much for their products, where are they getting the cash for their medical studies + r&d.

[The Wizard of Truth]

They dont do medical studies or R and D,if they did then it would quickly be realised that their products are a load of bollocks,or as you americans say,their products suck

[Chick]

Imagine how much cheaper Muscletech products would be if they didnt have to pay all the guys that endorse them??

LOL....trust me...the combined total of what the endorsed athletes make on contract doesn't make a dent in the total revenue being brought in by MT....they are a billion dollar company

[body88]

They dont do medical studies or R and D,if they did then it would quickly be realised that their products are a load of bollocks,or as you americans say,their products suck

My bad, I thought you might know what you were talking about.....nevermind.

[The Wizard of Truth]

My bad, I thought you might know what you were talking about.....nevermind.

I never claimed to know what I was talking about

[body88]

LOL....trust me...the combined total of what the endorsed athletes make on contract doesn't make a dent in the total revenue being brought in by MT....they are a billion dollar company

I never agree with you but I do here.  Sponsorships and such have little to no effect on a company's sale costs.  Products cost is determined by COS and the market.  As you know, marketing is supposed to create ROI (unless you're branding) and no good company is in the hole trying to pay off their marketing bills.  Again, product cost is based on r&d, ingredients, market tolerance and the economy.

I'm sure you have had conversations with Paul or Dave about this issue.

[Bobby]

I never claimed to know what I was talking about

great comeback, you really owned him there

[The Wizard of Truth]

Double owning,I owned him and myself...yeeeeeeeehaaaaa aaah