Author Topic: Learning Thread *ISLAM*  (Read 26249 times)

Hedgehog

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #150 on: August 31, 2006, 01:39:41 PM »
I wonder if  the Christian Bible equates women as full equals.

Not even close.

Thing is, the Bible is open for interpretation, since it's not written by God. It's written by Jon Doe's, regular blokes who are no closer or further away from God than anyone else.

This gives Christians the freedom of pretty much interpreting Christianity into whatever they want, as long as they believe in the fundamental: God as the only God, and Jesus as his son and the Holy Spirit.

All the rest is open for interpretation. Just look at how many Christians thinks the Death Penalty and long prison times are ok, when Jesus is preaching to turn the other cheek.

That's a very good example of how Christians allows themselves to interpret their faith to fit into their lives and values.

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Zack
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OzmO

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #151 on: August 31, 2006, 02:13:42 PM »
Not even close.

Thing is, the Bible is open for interpretation, since it's not written by God. It's written by Jon Doe's, regular blokes who are no closer or further away from God than anyone else.

This gives Christians the freedom of pretty much interpreting Christianity into whatever they want, as long as they believe in the fundamental: God as the only God, and Jesus as his son and the Holy Spirit.

All the rest is open for interpretation. Just look at how many Christians thinks the Death Penalty and long prison times are ok, when Jesus is preaching to turn the other cheek.

That's a very good example of how Christians allows themselves to interpret their faith to fit into their lives and values.

YIP
Zack

But that's not the Christian contention.  They content it was written by God via his inspration. 

Was the Quran written by a person also?

a_joker10

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #152 on: August 31, 2006, 02:38:35 PM »
Quran is the direct word of God.
Z

haider

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #153 on: August 31, 2006, 03:38:04 PM »
No offense, but what Hedgehog is saying is just plain wrong. The Quran IS open to interpretation, and the fact that it is [believed to be] the direct word of God only means that interpretation is necessary, since it has deeper meaning. A lot of the verses are to be understood within context, since they were revealed over 23 years as Muhammed(pbuh) (or the muslims) faced certain situations.

What he says about the bible is also wrong. Do you not know that there are christians that DON'T believe that Jesus(pbuh) is God, or the son of God? Tell me these differences in opinion don't arise from conflciting interpretations.
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haider

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #154 on: August 31, 2006, 03:42:43 PM »
MELTDOWN

You can't combat a "Translation:" reply with another "Translation:" reply.

Check this out: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=91602.0
LOL, you idiot. Where was this little "rule" of yours written?

Next time, remember rule #1: You can't make a [lameass] comeback based on a made up rule.

What remains  to be "translated", meaning "interpreted", oh I mean explained is your unusual obsession with "muzzys"
(how cute  :-*) and your homosexual man crush on fellow get-biggers.

Have a nice day BIATCH.
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #155 on: September 01, 2006, 12:46:04 AM »
LOL, you idiot. Where was this little "rule" of yours written?

Next time, remember rule #1: You can't make a [lameass] comeback based on a made up rule.

What remains  to be "translated", meaning "interpreted", oh I mean explained is your unusual obsession with "muzzys"
(how cute  :-*) and your homosexual man crush on fellow get-biggers.

Have a nice day BIATCH.

Your replies are becoming weaker and weaker :-\

PS. Muhammad was a pedophile.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

Hedgehog

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #156 on: September 01, 2006, 03:23:38 AM »
No offense, but what Hedgehog is saying is just plain wrong. The Quran IS open to interpretation, and the fact that it is [believed to be] the direct word of God only means that interpretation is necessary, since it has deeper meaning. A lot of the verses are to be understood within context, since they were revealed over 23 years as Muhammed(pbuh) (or the muslims) faced certain situations.

What he says about the bible is also wrong. Do you not know that there are christians that DON'T believe that Jesus(pbuh) is God, or the son of God? Tell me these differences in opinion don't arise from conflciting interpretations.

Why would a perfect text by God need interpretation?

Look at some of the stuff in the Qu'ran and Hadiths on women and women's rights.

IV/15: (For women) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them.

IV/16: (For Men) If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful.


Allah's Apostle said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning."

2:228, And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable;  but men have a degree (of advantage) over them.

It is forbidden for a woman to be seen by any man except her husband when she is made up or well-dressed. (TR. P 430)

3. A woman is not a believer if she undertakes a journey which may last three days or longer, unless she is accompanied by her husband, son, father or brother. (TR. P 431 )

4. A woman must veil herself even in the presence of her husband's father, brother and other male relations. (TR. P 432)

5. She is forbidden to spend any money without the permission of her husband, and it includes giving food to the needy or feast to friends. (TR. P 265)

6. A wife is forbidden to perform extra prayers (NAFAL) or observe fasting (other than RAMADAN) without the permission of her husband. (TR. P 300)

8. If a man is in a mood to have sexual intercourse woman must come immediately even if she is baking bread at a communal oven. (TR. P 428)

9. The marriage of woman to her man is not substantive. It is precarious. For example if the father of the husband orders his son to divorce his wife, he must do so. (TR. P 440)



How could anyone approve of a religion that preaches these kinds of things?

YIP
Zack
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #157 on: September 01, 2006, 03:37:20 AM »
I'm waiting for Haider to reply:

Haider: "Wait wait!!! You read them TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT!"
Person: "No I didn't"
Haider: "Oh well in that case, Arabic cannot be translated to English and retain the real meaning, you must read it in Arabic. It's meaning is TOTALLY lost in translation! Islam teaches men to treat women with respect equal to that of man!"
Person: "No you're lying on both accounts! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation"
Haider: "Alli uptar PALLY dumpa fally whoppa! Durka Durka! MELTDOWN"
الاسلام هو شيطانية

Nordic Superman

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الاسلام هو شيطانية

Hedgehog

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #159 on: September 01, 2006, 03:51:51 AM »
I'm waiting for Haider to reply:

Haider: "Wait wait!!! You read them TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT!"
Person: "No I didn't"
Haider: "Oh well in that case, Arabic cannot be translated to English and retain the real meaning, you must read it in Arabic. It's meaning is TOTALLY lost in translation! Islam teaches men to treat women with respect equal to that of man!"
Person: "No you're lying on both accounts! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation"
Haider: "Alli uptar PALLY dumpa fally whoppa! Durka Durka! MELTDOWN"

By putting words into haider's mouth, you're effectively voiding the possibilities of having him answer the actual question, but rather defending himself against the insults.

I don't blame him for defending himself either.


I just would like to see his answer/opinion on my question.

YIP
Zack
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Butterbean

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #160 on: September 01, 2006, 06:59:58 AM »
Why would a perfect text by God need interpretation?

Look at some of the stuff in the Qu'ran and Hadiths on women and women's rights.

IV/15: (For women) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them.

IV/16: (For Men) If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful.


Allah's Apostle said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning."

2:228, And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable;  but men have a degree (of advantage) over them.

It is forbidden for a woman to be seen by any man except her husband when she is made up or well-dressed. (TR. P 430)

3. A woman is not a believer if she undertakes a journey which may last three days or longer, unless she is accompanied by her husband, son, father or brother. (TR. P 431 )

4. A woman must veil herself even in the presence of her husband's father, brother and other male relations. (TR. P 432)

5. She is forbidden to spend any money without the permission of her husband, and it includes giving food to the needy or feast to friends. (TR. P 265)

6. A wife is forbidden to perform extra prayers (NAFAL) or observe fasting (other than RAMADAN) without the permission of her husband. (TR. P 300)

8. If a man is in a mood to have sexual intercourse woman must come immediately even if she is baking bread at a communal oven. (TR. P 428)

9. The marriage of woman to her man is not substantive. It is precarious. For example if the father of the husband orders his son to divorce his wife, he must do so. (TR. P 440)



How could anyone approve of a religion that preaches these kinds of things?

YIP
Zack

YIKES!




As far as equality between men and women in the Christian Bible:

"[For those who have put their faith in Christ].....There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."  Galatians 3:28

....the following scripture regarding equality in marriage is one that people interpret differently...........

Eph 5:22-33:  "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.  For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.  Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.  Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her .... ..... 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh.  ................'  .....each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."


The following I found on bible.org:

What is headship?
Maybe we should decide first of all what it is not. Headship is not superiority. Nowhere does the Bible imply that men are superior to women. In fact, it clearly states that men and women are equal in God’s sight. “There is neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Two becoming “one flesh” would also seem to indicate equality. God created men and women equal, and women should be treated as equals—not as inferiors. Men who ridicule and belittle women probably do it to reassure their own manhood. If they can convince themselves that all men are superior to all women, then they feel superior to their wives no matter how weak or irresponsible they themselves might be!

Nor does headship consist of domination or dictatorship. The doctrine of headship does not destroy a wife’s personality or will, nor does it reduce her to slave status. Actually it does just the opposite. Jesus Christ is the supreme example of headship, yet as the head of the church He ministers to it.  Some men have the false notion that headship means “I’m the boss and you’ll do as I say whether you like it or not. Now get me my slippers.”

Headship is loving leadership. There is a universal need for leadership in every sphere of human experience. We have it in government—local, state, and federal. Our mayor, governor, and president are not necessarily superior to us, but as our duly chosen leaders they have delegated positional authority. We have authority in our schools, on our jobs, and in our churches. We need to have it in our homes, too. The Bible declares, “But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.”  Probably the greatest example of headship to which we could point is that of God the Father as Head over God the Son. Christ has been equal with His Father from eternity past, yet He subjected Himself to the authority of the Father. Just as the Father is the Head of the Son and the Son is the Head of man, so man is the head of woman in the marital relationship.

How is this leadership implemented in the Christian home? I believe it is similar to the leadership exercised in any smoothly operating organization. No successful corporation can function properly with two heads. If there is a president and a vice-president, it is generally agreed that the president is the leader. The vice-president may actually be more brilliant than his boss, but the president still carries the greater authority. His status is not that of a dictator, but of a delegated authority. The arrangement will work best if there is a mutual confidence and trust between them, if they look to each other as equals, if each shares and contributes from his own abilities, resources, and experiences, and if they mold policies and make decisions by mutual consent, with both abiding by those decisions after they are made. Behind it all, however, there is the realization that only one of them is actually the leader. In the last analysis it is he who is responsible for all that is done.




R

Hedgehog

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #161 on: September 01, 2006, 07:05:58 AM »
YIKES!


As far as equality between men and women in the Christian Bible:

"[For those who have put their faith in Christ].....There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."  Galatians 3:28



You'll find a lot of stuff from Jesus which could give you a cop out for being a feminist (believing women and men should have equal rights).

In addition, the Bible isn't a really "holy" scripture. You need to interpret it to understand it.

Christianity have lots of cop outs for the modern man and woman. Islam, doesn't.

That's a big difference between the two religions.

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Zack
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #162 on: September 01, 2006, 12:06:17 PM »
You'll find a lot of stuff from Jesus which could give you a cop out for being a feminist (believing women and men should have equal rights).

In addition, the Bible isn't a really "holy" scripture. You need to interpret it to understand it.

Christianity have lots of cop outs for the modern man and woman. Islam, doesn't.

That's a big difference between the two religions.

YIP
Zack

Do you believe in God Hedge?

If so, do you follow a particular religion?

Don't say buddhism... you lose -1.5Bil man points if you do...
الاسلام هو شيطانية

Hedgehog

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #163 on: September 01, 2006, 12:19:09 PM »
Do you believe in God Hedge?

If so, do you follow a particular religion?

Don't say buddhism... you lose -1.5Bil man points if you do...

Well, in that case...




...to you, I shall be known as a buddhist. 8)

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Zack
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Nordic Superman

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #164 on: September 01, 2006, 12:27:03 PM »
Well, in that case...




...to you, I shall be known as a buddhist. 8)

YIP
Zack

Congradulations! You have less man-points than Boy George!:

الاسلام هو شيطانية

Hedgehog

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #165 on: September 01, 2006, 01:01:07 PM »
Congradulations! You have less man-points than Boy George!:



That's fcuking great mang.

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Zack
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ToxicAvenger

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #166 on: September 01, 2006, 01:30:29 PM »
yikes stella...Haider?? 

women in my family are treated better than men >:(  case in point my sister and all armani wardrobe that daddy bought..that she cnanges every 6 months..while most of my clothes r old navy..yes i'm bitter >:(
carpe` vaginum!

Nordic Superman

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #167 on: September 01, 2006, 01:35:00 PM »
yikes stella...Haider?? 

women in my family are treated better than men >:(  case in point my sister and all armani wardrobe that daddy bought..that she cnanges every 6 months..while most of my clothes r old navy..yes i'm bitter >:(

Stop with the propoganda. Womens rights in the koran and islamic countries are known to be low compared to the west - FACT.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

Hedgehog

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #168 on: September 01, 2006, 02:04:24 PM »
yikes stella...Haider?? 

women in my family are treated better than men >:(  case in point my sister and all armani wardrobe that daddy bought..that she cnanges every 6 months..while most of my clothes r old navy..yes i'm bitter >:(
[/quote

Let me ask you this Toxic:

What would your parents do if your sister married a black woman?


What would they do if YOU married a black man?




And please Nordic, allow TA to respond before commenting.


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Zack
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Butterbean

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #169 on: September 01, 2006, 02:06:19 PM »
Do you believe in God Hedge?

If so, do you follow a particular religion?

Don't say buddhism... you lose -1.5Bil man points if you do...

Nordic, I think Hedge has said before that he would like to believe if he could find something he could accept as true.

I think he's just messing w/you w/the buddhist thing :)

R

Nordic Superman

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #170 on: September 01, 2006, 02:12:49 PM »
Quote
What would your parents do if your sister married a black woman?

What would they do if YOU married a black man?

Hedge is this a joke?

Are you asking:

"What would your parents do if you were gay and going out with a black man?" ???
الاسلام هو شيطانية

Hedgehog

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #171 on: September 01, 2006, 08:09:56 PM »
Hedge is this a joke?

Are you asking:

"What would your parents do if you were gay and going out with a black man?" ???

I am asking him what his parents would do if he would date a black man, and what they would do if his sister would date a black woman.

What consequences would these actions have for TA and his sister respectively.

YIP
Zack
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ToxicAvenger

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #172 on: September 02, 2006, 04:20:18 PM »
Stop with the propoganda. Womens rights in the koran and islamic countries are known to be low compared to the west - FACT.

now ya telling me how stuff works in my own family..lol...
carpe` vaginum!

ToxicAvenger

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #173 on: September 02, 2006, 04:21:38 PM »
Stop with the propoganda.


need i point out the irony...
carpe` vaginum!

Butterbean

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Re: Learning Thread *ISLAM*
« Reply #174 on: September 17, 2006, 02:40:36 PM »
haider, what are your feelings on what the pope quoted recently?  Does it anger you?  If so, why?  If not, why do you think some Muslims are so angry and care so much what the pope says?  Certainly they don't believe that what Catholicism teaches is true so  why do they give any credence to what the pope says? 

Don't they just think he's deceived?  Shouldn't they just roll their eyes or feel sorry for him?  I just don't understand the outrage.   :-\

R