Author Topic: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.  (Read 66004 times)

SteelePegasus

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2006, 05:03:08 AM »
I will not dismiss your theories.

And no, you have no obligation whatsoever to describe specific methods, or give examples on what you believe is the least faulty (ie, most correct) way to train.

It would, however, be very nice to get a look at a typical training layout, if you were to design it for a natural athlete.

I believe it would also help people understand what you mean with your DOMS training.

How about it? Spill the beans mate.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2006, 05:07:28 AM »
give a guy enough food and gh and he could ride a tricycle all day and still win a local NPC show.

By far the dumbest thing you have ever said.

SteelePegasus

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2006, 05:15:23 AM »
"Oh, for what it is worth, HIT and HST do not work beyond a certain point. Something is wrong with the theory behind those methods. It isn't intensity that causes hypertrophy although sometimes it can stimulate some growth. Nope, that isn't a sufficient factor. HST tries to distill a method from science. If only the scientists were trying to cause as much growth as possible. Well, they have had some success with fowl and cats and perhaps some rats. Humans have been competely ignored as far as trying to cause substantial growth in their muscles. It is a pipedream that HST is going to be the optimum method and that is what we find. The forums of these believers are repetitive and hardly anyone is still growing. The methods seem to work on some people for a while then growth stops. Thus, these believers wonder what to do next and start changing things in the prescriptions. I guess that is trial and error and you wonder how a supposedly scientific method still needs it. The truth is those methods are not themselves scientific. There has been little or no research to support those beliefs and methods. It really reduces to charlatanry."



Vince, question

I thought that the point was to keep the muscle under tension for a long period of time *giving sufficient weight*, which is the goal of rest/pause and HIT

isn't that why drop sets are so effective?
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BEAST 8692

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2006, 05:36:31 AM »
i'm sorry, and this is no disrespect to vince, but look at the guy. ::)

if he actually did know what builds a body don't you think he would have one? i mean he runs a gym for crissakes! it's not like he doesn't have access to the tools. how many guys have you trained to mr olympia calibre vince? i didn't think so. :'(

he doesn't know shit. he is simply an attention whore. if he did have the 'secret' do you think he would be discussing it (or in this case not even going that far) on a message board ???

IF one could actually grow 'workout to workout' like he says, you would have bodybuilders walking around as big as sky scrapers. think about it people!

what he means by doms training ie delayed onset muscle soreness, is that he THINKS, like a lot of people, that doms indicates muscle growth. however, the simple fact is that it doesn't.

one could get doms doing 100 rep sets of push ups but are you going to get big doing that? waddy please don't bother answering. if so then marines would be looking like bodybuilders. they don't... unless they train bodybuilding.

i believe jones was on the right track with his theories. brief and brutal because if you are seriously training brutal how the hell do you training long.

compare the sprinter to the marathon runner. whose body would you rather have?


Petrucci

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2006, 05:55:10 AM »
give a guy enough food and gh and he could ride a tricycle all day and still win a local NPC show.

its sad but its true...I would like to see a guy, NATURAL, with very shitty genetics construct a good body...this guy´s routine and trainning methods would be good to hear...
!

jaejonna

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2006, 05:56:16 AM »
;D Why would I take ANY of this old man's advices???
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smaul

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2006, 06:03:05 AM »
Vince, Does this mean that you believe that HIT etc can be good to shock the muscle into growth once in a while though?, when stuck on a plateau?
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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2006, 06:16:54 AM »


I have no obligation to describe specific methods and prescriptions. Suffice is to point out the folly of what so many believe. This is, afterall, a discussion board of opinions regarding bodybuilding, etc.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2006, 06:21:05 AM »
Vince, you seem to eschew the notion of a limit of how much muscle a BB can put on.  Would you at least agree that more advanced BBs have a harder time making gains than a beginner?

Is your theory that DOMS is related to growth?  If so, how so (cause of, product of, paralleled by but not causally related...)?  How can we use this to maximize gains?  Please be specific so your ideas don't get lost in the Getbig Shuffle.

You've obviously put a lot of thought into your theories.  I would like to hear them, as would others I'm sure.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2006, 06:24:03 AM »
Arthur Jones arrived on the bodybuilding scene in 1969 and stuffed up hypertrophy training for decades. Even to this day we have the phenomenon of countless pseudo-intellectuals seeking out the right method from the on line sites such as HST and HIT. Well, I have news for you. All those groups are variations of what Arthur Jones preached 35 years ago. Arthur is the smartest guy who ever posted in bodybuilding magazines. He had us reading his ads for goodness sake! Those ads were state of the art theory about bodybuilding. His logic was so sensible it led to most of us doubting our protocols and I think just about everyone sought to do less instead of more to make gains. He demonstrated his ideas by training Sergio Oliva in 1972 and helped Sergio be at his largest ever. That Arnold won the Olympia in Essen is the stuff of controversy. Even Arnold admits Sergio was superior.

The point is does high intensity training and other brief training methods lead to maximum hypertrophy? Nope. It isn't going to happen. It is a big lie. Today we have nonsense about positions of flexion. All nonsense. I read the magazines and cannot see anything worthwhile written there for a long time. The last guy with something new to say other than myself was a Dennis guy who back in the 70s suggested a waste products theory of hypertrophy and used Larry Scott and Sergio Oliva as examples. Somehow he was forgotten and editors like Holman and publishers like Robert Kennedy became the theory guys. Yeah, sure.

There are some truths in bodybuilding. One is progressive resistance. That is the cornerstone of hypertrophy and permeates all theories and programs. The extension of progressive resistance is that in order to get large muscles you have to hoist heavy weights. Not rocket science at all. How come so few guys ever get really big muscles? If the formula is simple where are all the huge guys? You are lucky if you find one or two in each gym. Various hardcore gyms have heaps more big guys. That hasn't changed in over 30 years. Guys get to be a certain size and stop. Just about everyone is on a plateau. So what is the formula for success? Is there a simple formula to follow?

The sad truth is that various drugs and substances have ruined the whole bodybuilding scene. The very biggest guys are probably all using drugs. Please post anyone who is huge but not using? What has happened is that bodybuilding theory is now almost irrelevant because drugs will make up for what is lacking in theory. The big guys hang out together so they all gravitate towards doing similar things. Same drugs, same kind of training, more or less.

Well, there is a simple formula but unfortunately just about everyone who has developed any visible muscle feels he is an expert and knows how to get huge. In principle most of these people are wrong. They do not know how to get huge. Well, not naturally that is.

I could post my ideas here but this in not the proper place to post sensible things. Besides, all manner of flotsom and jetsom will emerge claiming to know more than all the Ironagers. The the real Ironagers trained before 1955. After that it is all suspect.

What is obviously true is that way too many bodybuilders have closed minds. They literally can never know the truth. Beliefs persist like a religion and it is uncanny how so many believe so much rubbish. This is unlikely to change from what I can see. Zillions of guys will blast away in the gym and remain on lifelong plateaus! It really is a crazy activity.

no offense dude but if you know so much then why aren't you big?
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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2006, 06:31:46 AM »
Quote
Yes, Arthur Jones is still alive.

I addition to Nautilus he owns the Bowflex, Stairmaster and MedX (evaluation and rehabilitation equipment ) lines. If memory serves me, he has some connection to Hammer Strength as well.

The Beef
Jones is still in Florida, running MedX. All the other companies are part of Nautilus, which is not the same entity he was involved with. His son runs Hammer Strength.

Some great ideas, most of which make sense; one of the top guys concerning theory. His arrogance and that of his converts in talking AT others has always been annoying though.

GoneAway

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2006, 06:32:34 AM »
no offense dude but if you know so much then why aren't you big?

See: Vince when he was younger.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2006, 06:33:22 AM »
See: Vince when he was younger.
he wasn't big at all to come off like such an expert.
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LASTREP72

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2006, 06:40:10 AM »
no offense dude but if you know so much then why aren't you big?
Cause remeber he doesn't beleive in lifting heavy weight - no benching, squating or heavy deadlifting. And gear is so terrible but it wasn't so bad for him to pop dbols for 6 weeks ???
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natural al

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2006, 07:11:10 AM »
Yes, Arthur Jones is still alive.

I addition to Nautilus he owns the Bowflex, Stairmaster and MedX (evaluation and rehabilitation equipment ) lines. If memory serves me, he has some connection to Hammer Strength as well.

The Beef

nautilus put out a line of machines in about 1989 that were like early versions of alot of the hammer strength stuff, we got them in my HS.
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TheGoldenPrince

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2006, 07:34:35 AM »
Could you pls lay out all your expert training and nutritional principls for putting on most muscle in shortest amt of time (all-natural) Vince? It could be intriguing, esp for guys like Vince G & Alexxx.
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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2006, 07:37:09 AM »
Could you pls lay out all your expert training and nutritional principls for putting on most muscle in shortest amt of time (all-natural) Vince? It could be intriguing, esp for guys like Vince G & Alexxx.
he doesn't know, if he knew he'd be big himself.
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Vince B

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2006, 07:37:31 AM »
There is so much negativity among members of this board and in fact just about everyone with some muscular development considers that they know how to build muscle. They assume it is just a matter of training harder and they can get bigger. The unvarnished truth is that it is extremely difficult to make muscles quite large. There might be many, many ways to explain why maximum size is so difficult but there is no way to know which explanations are true.

It is possible to account for maximum size without referring to DOMS or any other phenomenon. I used DOMS as a likely feedback mechanism and speculated what it might be like to grow continuously and at a marked rate. I had to dismiss much of what I thought I knew about physiology to construct my theory. It was forced upon me by the facts.

Can one build up huge size by doing pushups? Obviously, no. Why do thinkers suggest the absurd? The ultimate hypertrophy theory will be consistent with all the facts already known about muscles and growth. Philosophically, it is possible to grow at a maximum rate. Suppose we do a thought experiment. Assume that someone has managed to train in a fashion that led to obtaining maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible. It would be a simple process to reverse engineer everything and know what to do on each workout right back to the first session. It is clear that there have been some men who have developed huge size. We need look no further than the top Olympians. However, they have cheated by using agents for a shortcut. It may be that we cannot obtain such size naturally, although I see no reason, in principle, why this might be so. Women are another matter and it is unlikely anyone can replicate Ms Olympia size naturally.

Many are wondering why I didn't get huge in the past. I obviously didn't have the right theory about training. There were also problems about equipment deficiencies that are no longer a shortcoming. I am no longer motivated to get huge. Also, I have many injuries from past training that do not make training enjoyable. However, it is also part of my theory that significant size can be developed at just about any age. That goes against what most of us have been told. However, hypertrophy is easy to trigger so it is just a matter of application to continue the process.

Is intensity an important factor in hypertrophy? Well, I prefer to think about thresholds and as long as sufficient tension is placed on a muscle for a sufficient length of time and then repeated at the optimal frequency then there is no reason one shouldn't keep growing. The actual application of this process is complicated because in moving systems there are just too many slight differences. In other words, it is difficult to test training among individuals because there is no way to know if they are doing things in precisely the same fashion.

It is likely that size is related to effort in training and that as one grows larger the amount of effort increases exponentially. This might help to explain why so few obain huge size. Again, how are we supposed to discover how much effort is required when no one is studying such things?

I have found it is dangerous to merely think about this process. Arthur Jones was mistaken in some of his thinking about how muscles contract. It is clear no one knew what we now know at the molecular level in the muscles. The maximum size theory must be consistent with all known and future reseach. So far no one has managed to falsify my theory. Some armchair speculators dismiss various ideas I have written about but the research agrees with what I have found. At least that is encouraging. I welcome considered criticism because the true theory will survive all such criticism. Just make sure you know what you are talking about as well.

Please remember that I cannot respond while I am at work or asleep. Eventually I will reply to various questions.



TheGoldenPrince

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2006, 07:39:43 AM »
Team Goodrum!

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2006, 07:41:04 AM »
There is so much negativity among members of this board and in fact just about everyone with some muscular development considers that they know how to build muscle. They assume it is just a matter of training harder and they can get bigger. The unvarnished truth is that it is extremely difficult to make muscles quite large. There might be many, many ways to explain why maximum size is so difficult but there is no way to know which explanations are true.

It is possible to account for maximum size without referring to DOMS or any other phenomenon. I used DOMS as a likely feedback mechanism and speculated what it might be like to grow continuously and at a marked rate. I had to dismiss much of what I thought I knew about physiology to construct my theory. It was forced upon me by the facts.

Can one build up huge size by doing pushups? Obviously, no. Why do thinkers suggest the absurd? The ultimate hypertrophy theory will be consistent with all the facts already known about muscles and growth. Philosophically, it is possible to grow at a maximum rate. Suppose we do a thought experiment. Assume that someone has managed to train in a fashion that led to obtaining maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible. It would be a simple process to reverse engineer everything and know what to do on each workout right back to the first session. It is clear that there have been some men who have developed huge size. We need look no further than the top Olympians. However, they have cheated by using agents for a shortcut. It may be that we cannot obtain such size naturally, although I see no reason, in principle, why this might be so. Women are another matter and it is unlikely anyone can replicate Ms Olympia size naturally.

Many are wondering why I didn't get huge in the past. I obviously didn't have the right theory about training. There were also problems about equipment deficiencies that are no longer a shortcoming. I am no longer motivated to get huge. Also, I have many injuries from past training that do not make training enjoyable. However, it is also part of my theory that significant size can be developed at just about any age. That goes against what most of us have been told. However, hypertrophy is easy to trigger so it is just a matter of application to continue the process.

Is intensity an important factor in hypertrophy? Well, I prefer to think about thresholds and as long as sufficient tension is placed on a muscle for a sufficient length of time and then repeated at the optimal frequency then there is no reason one shouldn't keep growing. The actual application of this process is complicated because in moving systems there are just too many slight differences. In other words, it is difficult to test training among individuals because there is no way to know if they are doing things in precisely the same fashion.

It is likely that size is related to effort in training and that as one grows larger the amount of effort increases exponentially. This might help to explain why so few obain huge size. Again, how are we supposed to discover how much effort is required when no one is studying such things?

I have found it is dangerous to merely think about this process. Arthur Jones was mistaken in some of his thinking about how muscles contract. It is clear no one knew what we now know at the molecular level in the muscles. The maximum size theory must be consistent with all known and future reseach. So far no one has managed to falsify my theory. Some armchair speculators dismiss various ideas I have written about but the research agrees with what I have found. At least that is encouraging. I welcome considered criticism because the true theory will survive all such criticism. Just make sure you know what you are talking about as well.

Please remember that I cannot respond while I am at work or asleep. Eventually I will reply to various questions.



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TheGoldenPrince

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2006, 07:48:43 AM »
he doesn't know, if he knew he'd be big himself.

Hey, at least he won the overall in the IFBB Mr Canada. It was one of the bigger (you can say biggest even) events around back then and still is today.
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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2006, 07:53:09 AM »
;D Why would I take ANY of this old man's advices???

I "think" Jones was almost 60 when that shot was taken and that was after his first serious training program in years.  I think if you look up the Colorado Experiment they list his before and after stats and they are not that bad considering how old he was.
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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2006, 08:00:36 AM »
I believe that most people have problems reaching their goals because they do not have the commitment necessary to see constant progress.  Building muscle is difficult to do and requires more than just showing up at the gym.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2006, 08:09:43 AM »
Vince before we go any further I'd like to see or hear an example of who you think epitomizes your bodybuilding ideal, or at least who came the closest that you are aware of to having achieved what a "successful bodybuilding routine" would produce.  What type of physique do you have in mind as an ideal...as something that might result from the "correct" exercise program, proper execution of this program, and fulfillment of whatever nutritional demands this physique would require?   

SteelePegasus

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2006, 08:10:38 AM »
no offense dude but if you know so much then why aren't you big?

this is not really a fair statement. Many elite athletes have coaches and gurus does that mean that the guru/coach is better than them?

lets wait until Vince posts his training guide

I could be wrong but I am guessing that Vince is an advocate of something like "progressive 6 X 6"

lift weight heavy enough for 6 reps over 6 sets *rest 90 seconds* should be sufficient enough to stimulate hyperthophy

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