What kind of tactics are fair in war?

[Hugo Chavez]

Is it ok to call for a cease fire and wait until people come out of their homes to shop then gun them all down? Women and Children too...

Is it fair to tell people to come out of their home, they have to leave then when they come out unarmed to leave the town, gun them down?

Is it fair to shoot an ambulance and when the driver stops, the Ambulance searched and nothing found, shoot the ambulance driver anyway... The only man that was trying to take the wounded to the hospital?

Does anything go in War?  If anything goes in war, how do you feel about suicide bombers and IEDs... where is the thin red line in all this

I ask these questions after watching a documentary today "a letter to the prime minister" This documentary is on FSTV again later today.  It was pretty well done.  You'll see images from the only media source that stayed in Falluja.

[Dos Equis]

Depends on which side you're on.  We have rules of engagement (e.g., you don't kill noncombatants who pose no threat).  Terrorists do not. 

[OzmO]

All that's good in theory.  But when the shooting starts everything changes

[Dos Equis]

All that's good in theory.  But when the shooting starts everything changes

Not everything.  I'm sure some solidiers bend the rules, and there are gray areas, but JAG is all over commanders re the rules of engagement. 

[OzmO]

Not everything.  I'm sure some soldiers bend the rules, and there are gray areas, but JAG is all over commanders re the rules of engagement. 

My point stems from what happened in WW2.  Civilian targets.  Germany started hitting civilian targets and then soon after we all did.

[Cap]

No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy.

[Hugo Chavez]

Depends on which side you're on.  We have rules of engagement (e.g., you don't kill noncombatants who pose no threat).  Terrorists do not. 

Are you sure about that?

[Dos Equis]

Are you sure about that?

Yes.

[OzmO]

Are you sure about that?

This is very true.  Not that it's always followed by the troops in the fight.  But the senior commanders do.

[Dos Equis]

We have prosecuted soldiers who violated the rules of engagement in pretty much every major conflict.  That's one of the differences between "us" and "them." 

[Hugo Chavez]

My point stems from what happened in WW2.  Civilian targets.  Germany started hitting civilian targets and then soon after we all did.

yea, excellent point... Beach you should watch Fog of War See some of the stuff McNamara admits we intentionally did to civilian populations and you wouldn't be saying this with confidence.

fog of war
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12990.htm

[Hugo Chavez]

I'm not arguing that we don't have the rules of engagement

[OzmO]

Another thing we need to remember:

We are not Saints!

And "History" is written by thte victors

[240 is Back]

Depends on which side you're on.  We have rules of engagement (e.g., you don't kill noncombatants who pose no threat).  Terrorists do not. 

ON the history channel, I saw a nice piece about our soldiers fighing in Ramana province in iraq.

They flushed everyone out of town, chasing insurgents.  Then, when this huge crowd was fleeing the burning town, they were machinegunned from the chopper.  Thanks to the chpper cam, you just saw this crowd get shredded.  You could see little kids in there with their moms.  Just all part of the crowd fleeing. 

And our forces "received some good intel on more insurgent activity in the next town" and didn't even bother to examine, count, check out the pile of bodies they had just created.  The men on the ground went to the next town to do it again.

Now, I'm not sure a mama carrying a baby, fleeing a burning town is a combatant.  You can rationalize "well, well, maybe just maybe she... " but until you ask her, you don't know.  Filling her with bullets isn't cool, is it?

[Hugo Chavez]

So are these tactics, right or wrong.  If these accusations are true of what happened in Faluja, it was a coordinated effort, not one soldiers fog of war.  I'm not asking these questions to side against our troops, I'm asking them in an attempt to have a view of the situation from the greatest perspective which I know it's not possible to see with a complete understanding, but looking at these things and asking these questions is a step in that direction.  If we do this stuff and Iraqis know we do this stuff, should they give two shits about using unethical tactics?  I'm not claiming to have any right answers in anything said in this thread, I'm just asking questions that pop into my head trying to soak in what I am able to see as a limited outside observer.

[Hugo Chavez]

ON the history channel, I saw a nice piece about our soldiers fighing in Ramana province in iraq.

They flushed everyone out of town, chasing insurgents.  Then, when this huge crowd was fleeing the burning town, they were machinegunned from the chopper.  Thanks to the chpper cam, you just saw this crowd get shredded.  You could see little kids in there with their moms.  Just all part of the crowd fleeing. 

And our forces "received some good intel on more insurgent activity in the next town" and didn't even bother to examine, count, check out the pile of bodies they had just created.  The men on the ground went to the next town to do it again.

Now, I'm not sure a mama carrying a baby, fleeing a burning town is a combatant.  You can rationalize "well, well, maybe just maybe she... " but until you ask her, you don't know.  Filling her with bullets isn't cool, is it?

If an occupying force was doing this in America against us... Would I join an insurgency and do everything and anything no matter how unethical to kill the people doing this to Americans, yes in a heartbeat...  Perspective... How much have we fueled an insurgency with this shit?  How many of our troops have been killed because Iraqis ran to join the insurgency after having their fathers or mothers or children gunned down?  What a fucking mess... Remember this shit people the next time some wackjob of a president tells you we're going to liberate someone with war...   Man... If some occupying force killed my mother,... Oh fuck it, I'm getting medieval... Perspective prespective...

[240 is Back]

Yeah, what if we did this in 50 towns?

Chased everyone out thru those string mines and gunfire, onto the main road, then machine gun them all (men, women and children with no attempt at engagement), then get a call about new intel and leave before even looking at the bodies?

It would mean less recorded dead iraqis.  it would sure breed some resentment too.  And it would be hella illegal and immoral.  And if you're a real American, you wouldn't stand for that shit.  You would see that as genocide/mass murder, which is how it is defined in the Geneva which our nation signed.  So it'd be a crime too.

But hell, you're a hate-filled 22 year old with a big gun and trained hatred.  You have the rest of your life to think about the dead women and children whose downfall you enjoyed so much.

[Hugo Chavez]

Yeah, what if we did this in 50 towns?

Chased everyone out thru those string mines and gunfire, onto the main road, then machine gun them all (men, women and children with no attempt at engagement), then get a call about new intel and leave before even looking at the bodies?

It would mean less recorded dead iraqis.  it would sure breed some resentment too.  And it would be hella illegal and immoral.  And if you're a real American, you wouldn't stand for that shit.  You would see that as genocide/mass murder, which is how it is defined in the Geneva which our nation signed.  So it'd be a crime too.

But hell, you're a hate-filled 22 year old with a big gun and trained hatred.  You have the rest of your life to think about the dead women and children whose downfall you enjoyed so much.

Right now I'm watching documentation of civilian areas, markets getting cluster bombed   This looks like a planned genocide to me... From Gulf War one, all the people who suffered from the sanctions, and now, shock and awe and an even worse aftermath... These people are in someone's way... 








The Iraq War is Criminal as all hell.  George Bush is Hitler reincarnated.  This stuff I'm seeing is pure fucked up.  Bring out troops home to defend America, not participate in Genocide.  And George Bush and Tony Blair should be tried for international war crimes and dealt with accordingly.  This is so easy for us living in our American Bubble...  We can go out an play golf and never have to deal with this, tune into our favorite tv show, ignore it all... This is sick what I'm watching, sick...

[240 is Back]

you have a link?  I think that many here who happily shout "kill all the babies!" wouldn't say that if they saw the horrors of it.

[Dos Equis]

No we aren't saints.  We have service members who break the law.  I'm sure we also run some illegal military operations.  But overall, and as a matter of policy, we do the right thing.  Citing exceptions (e.g., soldiers who commit war crimes) doesn't prove much.  I think it's more telling that we punish war criminals. 

[Hugo Chavez]

you have a link?  I think that many here who happily shout "kill all the babies!" wouldn't say that if they saw the horrors of it.

No, I looked for it on the net and couldn't find it, it was on FSTV today.

[240 is Back]

No we aren't saints.  We have service members who break the law.  I'm sure we also run some illegal military operations.  But overall, and as a matter of policy, we do the right thing.  Citing exceptions (e.g., soldiers who commit war crimes) doesn't prove much.  I think it's more telling that we punish war criminals. 

"Overall"

Can you quantify that?  One masacre per every twenty days per soldier?  One massacre per 100 days?

Shit, if you give the moral permission to one, you give the moral permission to ten thousand abuses.

The law doesn't make exceptions for pissed off generals having bad days hwo just machine gun a mob rather than sort them out.  Neither should you.

[Dos Equis]

"Overall"

Can you quantify that?  One masacre per every twenty days per soldier?  One massacre per 100 days?

Shit, if you give the moral permission to one, you give the moral permission to ten thousand abuses.

The law doesn't make exceptions for pissed off generals having bad days hwo just machine gun a mob rather than sort them out.  Neither should you.

Read the paper.  Watch the news.  You'll see examples of soldiers who have broken the law and are being punished.  There are soldiers in prison for taking pictures of naked terrorists. 

[240 is Back]

Read the paper.  Watch the news.  You'll see examples of soldiers who have broken the law and are being punished.  There are soldiers in prison for taking pictures of naked terrorists. 

Oh, okay.  The paper and news.  Of course. 

hey, how come this massacre I saw on the History channel wasn't on "the paper and news"?

Geez, there is one born every minute.

[Dos Equis]

Oh, okay.  The paper and news.  Of course. 

hey, how come this massacre I saw on the History channel wasn't on "the paper and news"?

Geez, there is one born every minute.

You got me.  I'm the one who believes we faked the moon landing.  No . . . wait . . . That's YOU.     *Twilight Zone theme playing*