Author Topic: Stock Market discussion  (Read 49267 times)

loco

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2019, 10:16:33 AM »


Might be a good read for an 18-30 year old but I doubt it lists the metrics that I would want to see - income, time, contribution level, fund allotments, etc. On a little looking I found the average is about 30 years in the market just staying in. So if you put the max 19k in a year for 30 years or have an ESOP or match from your employer yes, odds are you'll be a millionaire. But most people don't work the same place for 30 years or put in anywhere near that amount and as passive parties are subject to all the trappings of timing, fees, dishonesty, etc. I don't consider the equities market a fiduciary system for small investors. Also factor in that many pensions plans are going bankrupt.

My point is high income earners will become millionaires in any decent investment or even a simple savings plan over the long term. The guy with 100k in a 401k hoping to be able to retire on it in 10 years is being lied to. That's one year of putting a parent in a rest home.

I love being highly liquid. No carrot on a stick. No need to worry if I will be dealing with a Bernie Sanders type tax policy or have the retirement age pushed up to 75 to realize the deferred tax benefit, etc. Guess who bought everything up last crash? People who had liquid funds.

A working couple can invest a total of $50,000 a year in tax sheltered accounts:  $19,000 in 401K each, and $6,000 in individual Roth each.

Add 401K employee matching(FREE MONEY), then add investing in a taxable account and reaching financial independence early isn't as difficult at some people make it out to be.

It's like getting and staying in shape.  Eat healthy and exercise regularly.   Most can do it, many don't while many do.  You just have to take responsibility for your actions and for your future.

bigkid

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2019, 11:41:12 AM »
There's no immediate gratification of saving your money.  That's why so many people in this country are broke.  Even people that make good-great money. It's pathetic.

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2019, 02:40:59 PM »
A working couple can invest a total of $50,000 a year in tax sheltered accounts:  $19,000 in 401K each, and $6,000 in individual Roth each.

Add 401K employee matching(FREE MONEY), then add investing in a taxable account and reaching financial independence early isn't as difficult at some people make it out to be.

It's like getting and staying in shape.  Eat healthy and exercise regularly.   Most can do it, many don't while many do.  You just have to take responsibility for your actions and for your future.



I make too much for a Roth and I'm not about getting married. Come to think of it I'm not getting a boss either.  ;D

deadz

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2019, 03:21:24 PM »
nasdaq 100 down over 4% ouch!
Another fail for day trader FF.
T

honest

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2019, 04:38:28 PM »
Currency manipulator, so its okay to lower your own currency by quantitive easing or printing it, but you can't just skip that and simply adjust it. ?

I cannot see how Trump wins this, I totally see his point with what he's doing in trying to get the Chinese to buy more US products as the US buy so much Chinese and where he can achieve that its a win, but blowing it up to this position where it becomes trade war rather than a process. The USA can't win a trade war with China, economic conditions will hit hard and he will be defeated democratically and the democrats will get back in and look to cover themselves in glory by doing a deal bringing back cheap imported goods. The US economy and population is to far gone, its business and people are to dependant on offshore manufacturing and too reliant on cheap goods the armament brings

The Chinese alternatively don't give a shite about their people and don't need to be re elected every 4 years, they also hold a trillion dollars in US debt, Just my opinion I'm a communist hater and love the free market and don't agree with China being a trading partner of the free world whilst they don't have a free and open market economy. They should never have been allowed in, but now that they're in I just don't know you fix it, it will take being re elected a few times and in my opinion the US population won't tolerate a period of economic hardship prior to any longterm benefit that is not guaranteed.


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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2019, 06:41:06 PM »
Currency manipulator, so its okay to lower your own currency by quantitive easing or printing it, but you can't just skip that and simply adjust it. ?

I cannot see how Trump wins this, I totally see his point with what he's doing in trying to get the Chinese to buy more US products as the US buy so much Chinese and where he can achieve that its a win, but blowing it up to this position where it becomes trade war rather than a process. The USA can't win a trade war with China, economic conditions will hit hard and he will be defeated democratically and the democrats will get back in and look to cover themselves in glory by doing a deal bringing back cheap imported goods. The US economy and population is to far gone, its business and people are to dependant on offshore manufacturing and too reliant on cheap goods the armament brings

The Chinese alternatively don't give a shite about their people and don't need to be re elected every 4 years, they also hold a trillion dollars in US debt, Just my opinion I'm a communist hater and love the free market and don't agree with China being a trading partner of the free world whilst they don't have a free and open market economy. They should never have been allowed in, but now that they're in I just don't know you fix it, it will take being re elected a few times and in my opinion the US population won't tolerate a period of economic hardship prior to any longterm benefit that is not guaranteed.





Markets have been highly managed since the 70s so there is no winning per se, only keeping the game going. Enough money and debt has been created for the next 100 years of future GDP, so devaluation is the only option. Fixing this is a hot potato that nobody wants to touch, and all world banks are involved.

When you understand that much future prosperity has already been spoken for you tend not to think that the way things are now are going to be that way in 30-40 years.

If the economy holds for another 16 months Trump will be re-elected. What happens in his second term economically(it's likely not going to be good just looking at the cycle) will probably usher in an open socialist POTUS to start implementing some sort of soft reset/lowering of expectations. Tax law and rates can and will be changed and promises that these investment instruments are forever a certain way will be broken.


ProudVirgin69

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2019, 10:24:56 AM »


Blue collar is exactly who pays for the graft of the "money managers" all while your savings is locked up. That's fine for people who can't control their spending but the whole 401k game was designed to take the burden of pensions off of companies and privatize risk, not to make regular people rich. Yes, if you stay in forever there is a slow return but as they disclaim "past performance doesn't guarantee future returns". If you retire in the wrong timespan you can be down 30-40%, and if you pull out with a gain, it's a gain...but taxable to boot if before retirement age. The whole idea of tax deferred to retirement once again is to lock your money up. In the era of money printing and HFT trading I prefer less counterparty risk and real assets that flow cash. Waiting until I'm old for access to my money and hoping a stranger takes good care of my future is financially careless IMO.

Between the tax advantages and company matching, 401(k)/403(b) plans are the most profitable way to invest. 

Slapper

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2019, 10:44:57 AM »
Guys, the trade war IS going to come to an end soon. The Chinese will concede sooner or later. Don't get distracted by the noise on CNBC and the rest of the doom-and-gloom brigade.

As far as markets go, we ARE due for a nasty, 1929-caliber, correction. We just entered a(n Elliot) wave 5 of 5 of 5. In wave frequency terms, this is a fucking rogue wave.

I don't tell people where to put their money but... read up on the circumstances preceding the subprime debacle. When the market turns, it will turn on a dime.

This may be the breakthrough Bitcoin needs.

Once the crisis is over, the Federal Reserve is going to be done with. Bernanke and all these manipulative motherfuckers will be put in jail. They just "greased" another artificial rally with a rate cut that will most likely be replicated should things get worse with the US-China trade negotiations. And due to this, most retail folks will get shellacked by the correction. Institutions are quietly exiting their holdings and buying bonds.

FitnessFrenzy

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2019, 10:45:48 AM »
Another fail for day trader FF.

I didn't lose anything because I am not a day trader.

loco

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2019, 06:17:46 AM »
I make too much for a Roth and I'm not about getting married. Come to think of it I'm not getting a boss either.  ;D

Nothing wrong with that.  All personal choices.

A working couple with decent careers can easily make too much to contribute to a Roth too.  You may only contribute to a Roth IRA if you make less than $137,000 for single filers and $203,000 for married couples filing jointly.

However, working couples get around this by maximizing their 401K, which reduces their taxable income.

Newly retired couples can also take advantage of backdoor Roth conversions to minimize taxes.  

Employees can also reduce their taxable income by taking advantage of Health Savings Account (HSA) and Flexible Spending Account (FSA), available through their employer.  Any money they contribute to these accounts is 100% tax free, as long as they spend it only on medical expenses.

Couples working for employers with decent benefits create a cushion too.  They have more than one source of income.  So if one loses a job, they still have the other's income along with health insurance benefits.

So having an employer is not such a bad thing if the employer has decent benefits, the employees have decent careers, and the employees take full advantage of all the benefits available to them in order to earn, save, and invest for a comfortable retirement.  Again, it's a personal choice.

IroNat

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2019, 06:40:54 AM »
Highly compensated employees are often limited in their 401k contributions.

Depends on general employee participation.

Marty Champions

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2019, 06:46:11 AM »
You better own property and rent it and get a trickle of income that way you can pay your own bills from rental income. I see no other viable investments unless you want to become skilled tradesman
A

IroNat

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2019, 06:56:59 AM »
Taxable low cost equity index funds that have very low turnover and low dividend payouts are also good investment options for those who are limited in their amounts to 401k/IRAs.

Most folk will have enough trouble maxing their 401k/IRAs however.

Getbiggers need additional options for their massive incomes.

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2019, 08:05:13 AM »
Nothing wrong with that.  All personal choices.

A working couple with decent careers can easily make too much to contribute to a Roth too.  You may only contribute to a Roth IRA if you make less than $137,000 for single filers and $203,000 for married couples filing jointly.

However, working couples get around this by maximizing their 401K, which reduces their taxable income.

Newly retired couples can also take advantage of backdoor Roth conversions to minimize taxes.  

Employees can also reduce their taxable income by taking advantage of Health Savings Account (HSA) and Flexible Spending Account (FSA), available through their employer.  Any money they contribute to these accounts is 100% tax free, as long as they spend it only on medical expenses.

Couples working for employers with decent benefits create a cushion too.  They have more than one source of income.  So if one loses a job, they still have the other's income along with health insurance benefits.

So having an employer is not such a bad thing if the employer has decent benefits, the employees have decent careers, and the employees take full advantage of all the benefits available to them in order to earn, save, and invest for a comfortable retirement.  Again, it's a personal choice.



Cliffs .. "my job is a financial adviser".  ;)

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2019, 08:10:17 AM »
You better own property and rent it and get a trickle of income that way you can pay your own bills from rental income. I see no other viable investments unless you want to become skilled tradesman


The right rental properties can really make life a lot easier and the more you have the easier it gets proportionately. Not so easy if you work a 9-5, but it is so tax and debt advantaged that if you can get in right the hold just gets better as you go.

Griffith

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2019, 09:06:43 AM »

The right rental properties can really make life a lot easier and the more you have the easier it gets proportionately. Not so easy if you work a 9-5, but it is so tax and debt advantaged that if you can get in right the hold just gets better as you go.

People in the US are so fortunate to have such low taxes.

Marty Champions

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2019, 09:47:15 AM »

The right rental properties can really make life a lot easier and the more you have the easier it gets proportionately. Not so easy if you work a 9-5, but it is so tax and debt advantaged that if you can get in right the hold just gets better as you go.
you can count on 90 percent of the property in any decent populated city to have a 25% increase in value within 3 years of aquiring it.   one casualty is prop tax increase upon assesment every 3 years. The key is just try to maintain the property when things break , you wont be rich with tons of cash paying mortgages taxes repairs and insurance but youll have enough coming in .  Its honest work , you maintain a roof over someones head and they pay you for it.

Getting into the buisnes without much money requires investing in bad areas at FIRST, because thats where youll get cheap houses, more maintenace and delenquent non paying renters..yes not very appealing start at all. But you must buy n hold. However cities become gentrified within 5 year and someone will likely pay you alot more for that property.... Now you can buy something in a better location


Lots of doctors n lawyers are aquiring great properties they didnt have to start out investing in ghettos yet some still do anyways
A

Marty Champions

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2019, 10:15:25 AM »
If usa would stop making crap of planned obselesence we would be competitive im guessing
Currency manipulator, so its okay to lower your own currency by quantitive easing or printing it, but you can't just skip that and simply adjust it. ?

I cannot see how Trump wins this, I totally see his point with what he's doing in trying to get the Chinese to buy more US products as the US buy so much Chinese and where he can achieve that its a win, but blowing it up to this position where it becomes trade war rather than a process. The USA can't win a trade war with China, economic conditions will hit hard and he will be defeated democratically and the democrats will get back in and look to cover themselves in glory by doing a deal bringing back cheap imported goods. The US economy and population is to far gone, its business and people are to dependant on offshore manufacturing and too reliant on cheap goods the armament brings

The Chinese alternatively don't give a shite about their people and don't need to be re elected every 4 years, they also hold a trillion dollars in US debt, Just my opinion I'm a communist hater and love the free market and don't agree with China being a trading partner of the free world whilst they don't have a free and open market economy. They should never have been allowed in, but now that they're in I just don't know you fix it, it will take being re elected a few times and in my opinion the US population won't tolerate a period of economic hardship prior to any longterm benefit that is not guaranteed.


A

Griffith

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2019, 10:33:46 AM »
Currency manipulator, so its okay to lower your own currency by quantitive easing or printing it, but you can't just skip that and simply adjust it. ?

I cannot see how Trump wins this, I totally see his point with what he's doing in trying to get the Chinese to buy more US products as the US buy so much Chinese and where he can achieve that its a win, but blowing it up to this position where it becomes trade war rather than a process. The USA can't win a trade war with China, economic conditions will hit hard and he will be defeated democratically and the democrats will get back in and look to cover themselves in glory by doing a deal bringing back cheap imported goods. The US economy and population is to far gone, its business and people are to dependant on offshore manufacturing and too reliant on cheap goods the armament brings

The Chinese alternatively don't give a shite about their people and don't need to be re elected every 4 years, they also hold a trillion dollars in US debt, Just my opinion I'm a communist hater and love the free market and don't agree with China being a trading partner of the free world whilst they don't have a free and open market economy. They should never have been allowed in, but now that they're in I just don't know you fix it, it will take being re elected a few times and in my opinion the US population won't tolerate a period of economic hardship prior to any longterm benefit that is not guaranteed.



No, but lack of economic growth will increase discontent and chances of unrest. People tolerate the regime because they believe it can give them prosperity and rising living standards.

If they lose this, the communist party would be exposed for what they are, a group of corrupt thieving cadres who only want to hang on to power at all costs to enrich themselves.

Also, plenty of other countries which can replace China as a hub for cheap manufacturing.

loco

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2019, 10:46:17 AM »


Cliffs .. "my job is a financial adviser".  ;)

What?  I don't get it.

I am not a financial adviser, if that's what you mean.  I actually discourage the use of financial advisers.

IroNat

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2019, 01:25:07 PM »
There is much gratification (and peace of mind) in having a substantial amount of money saved even if getting there was challenging.

Lesson learned. My parents made no financial plans for the future. They lived excessively well as long as my stepdad was able to work. When he no longer was, they became paupers. 

Truth.

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Re: Stock Market Crashing 2019-08-05
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2019, 03:05:56 PM »
What?  I don't get it.

I am not a financial adviser, if that's what you mean.  I actually discourage the use of financial advisers.


It's a joke because you are so by the book.

Marty Champions sez the way to greys is eating red meat and watching the markets all day.  :)

Slapper

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US - China Trade War
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2019, 04:59:41 PM »
When do you fellas reckon it'll be over?

The markets are taking a HIT.

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Re: US - China Trade War
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2019, 05:03:29 PM »
When do you fellas reckon it'll be over?

The markets are taking a HIT.
When Biden takes office we will be heading into a Golden Age of prosperity.

IroNat

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Re: US - China Trade War
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2019, 05:13:11 PM »
The market is going to take a hit regardless of US/China relations.

The bull market has exceeded all expectations in duration.

Make sure you are diversified to the extent you can survive a 50% drop in your equity portfolio without compromising your retirement or other goals.

It's coming.