Author Topic: If Scott Roeder was an Atheist would he still have murdered Dr. Tiller?  (Read 4938 times)

a_joker10

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By the way straw man.
That wacko that opened fire at the holocaust memorial was an atheist.
http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2009/06/antichristian_white_supremacis.html

Idiot dirt bags come in all strips.
Z

Dos Equis

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By the way straw man.
That wacko that opened fire at the holocaust memorial was an atheist.
http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2009/06/antichristian_white_supremacis.html

Idiot dirt bags come in all strips.

Doh! 

Straw Man

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By the way straw man.
That wacko that opened fire at the holocaust memorial was an atheist.
http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2009/06/antichristian_white_supremacis.html

Idiot dirt bags come in all strips.

yeah but did he kill because of his atheist belief or was it because of his anti-semitism and bigotry against blacks?

If he was killing people in a church I might think it had something to do with atheism but he was in a holocaust museum

I do agree with you that wacko come in all stripes and from all religious backgrounds (including no religion)




a_joker10

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yeah but did he kill because of his atheist belief or was it because of his anti-semitism and bigotry against blacks?

If he was killing people in a church I might think it had something to do with atheism but he was in a holocaust museum

I do agree with you that wacko come in all stripes and from all religious backgrounds (including no religion)





I think Christianity played the same level in abortion doctor shooting as atheism played in the Holocaust memorial shooting.

I look at the massive amounts of hatred these 2 guys have and would blame that and the fact they were crazy.

Religious, anti-religious views had little to do with it.

Z

Straw Man

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I think Christianity played the same level in abortion doctor shooting as atheism played in the Holocaust memorial shooting.

I look at the massive amounts of hatred these 2 guys have and would blame that and the fact they were crazy.

Religious, anti-religious views had little to do with it.

Here's how I see it

Roeder was involved with anti-abortion groups who oppose abortion based on their interpretation of christianity which has decided that they know what life is and when it begins and characterizes abortion as murder (some misguided people on this site do the same thing) and because of these beliefs felt he had to kill a doctor who performs abortions

Von Brunn - was an anti-semite, white supremacist, bigot, and holocaust denier who killed a black man in a holocaust museum.

I think the motivation in both sad cases is pretty obvious

loco

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Here's how I see it

Roeder was involved with anti-abortion groups who oppose abortion based on their interpretation of christianity which has decided that they know what life is and when it begins and characterizes abortion as murder (some misguided people on this site do the same thing) and because of these beliefs felt he had to kill a doctor who performs abortions

Von Brunn - was an anti-semite, white supremacist, bigot, and holocaust denier who killed a black man in a holocaust museum.

I think the motivation in both sad cases is pretty obvious

Not true.

Scott Roeder has mental problems.  And he may have claimed to be a Christian, but he shot another Christian.  And his justification for it was not a religious one, but the same secular argument that both secular and religious anti-abortion people use, to defend the right to life of the unborn.

Straw Man, stop obsessing over making this a religious issue.  It isn't.

Straw Man

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Not true.

Scott Roeder has mental problems.  And he may have claimed to be a Christian, but he shot another Christian.  And his justification for it was not a religious one, but the same secular argument that both secular and religious anti-abortion people use, to defend the right to life of the unborn.

Straw Man, stop obsessing over making this a religious issue.  It isn't.

I'm not obsessing over anything

I'm calling it what it is

Roeder was a part of a radicalized christian movement that assumes they know what life is and when it begins.  They  also assume that Tiller was a mass murderer and some self professed christians on this board have said the same thing.  Roeder took it to the next crazy step which was to kill someone he saw as a mass murder to protect unborn babies.  This train of thought is right out of the extreme segment of the christian anti aborition movement.   All of this is undeniable. 

you might want to try stopping the incredible semantic contortions that you use to deny the reality of the situation.

You don't have to condone it (I assume you don't) but you this constant spin that Roeder was just a nut and his religious beliefs did not lead to this action are absurd.

If he was just crazy he would have picked a random person to shoot.

He chose Tiller for a specific reason and that reason was the crazy result of his personal religious beliefs

loco

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I'm not obsessing over anything

I'm calling it what it is

Roeder was a part of a radicalized christian movement that assumes they know what life is and when it begins.  They  also assume that Tiller was a mass murderer and some self professed christians on this board have said the same thing.  Roeder took it to the next crazy step which was to kill someone he saw as a mass murder to protect unborn babies.  This train of thought is right out of the extreme segment of the christian anti aborition movement.   All of this is undeniable. 

you might want to try stopping the incredible semantic contortions that you use to deny the reality of the situation.

You don't have to condone it (I assume you don't) but you this constant spin that Roeder was just a nut and his religious beliefs did not lead to this action are absurd.

If he was just crazy he would have picked a random person to shoot.

He chose Tiller for a specific reason and that reason was the crazy result of his personal religious beliefs

He is a Christian who lost his mind and shot another Christian, citing secular reasons and because of his mental problems, not because of his Christianity.

The guy from Finland I've posted about was an atheist who lost his mind too and shot 8 people, citing secular reasons too.

Stalin was an atheist who murdered hundreds of thousands of religious people.  Those people were specifically targeted by atheists for a specific reason, they were murdered and their property was destroyed only because they were religious.

Straw Man

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He is a Christian who lost his mind and shot another Christian, citing secular reasons and because of his mental problems, not because of his Christianity.

The guy from Finland I've posted about was an atheist who lost his mind too and shot 8 people, citing secular reasons too.

Stalin was an atheist who murdered hundreds of thousands of religious people.  Those people were specifically targeted by atheists for a specific reason, they were murdered and their property was destroyed only because they were religious.

Stalin targeted a lot of groups of people. 

Show me an atheist who goes to a church and kills people specifically because they are religious and you might have a point.

Why do you think Roeder decided that he had to kill Tiller.  Why didn't he just go to the mall and shoot at random people?

loco

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Stalin targeted a lot of groups of people. 

Show me an atheist who goes to a church and kills people specifically because they are religious and you might have a point.

Why do you think Roeder decided that he had to kill Tiller.  Why didn't he just go to the mall and shoot at random people?

Funny how you cry nonstop about this one Christian who shot another Christian, but you are okay with Stalin and make all kinds of excuses for him even though he murdered over a million innocent people.

Like the atheist from Finland, Roeder took it to the extreme because he has mental problems.  He targeted an abortion doctor because Roeder is anti-abortion.  Any secular anti-abortion nut job is just as capable of doing the same because this case has nothing to do with religion.

Straw Man

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Funny how you cry nonstop about this one Christian who shot another Christian, but you are okay with Stalin and make all kinds of excuses for him even though he murdered over a million innocent people.

Like the atheist from Finland, Roeder took it to the extreme because he has mental problems.  He targeted an abortion doctor because Roeder is anti-abortion.  Any secular anti-abortion nut job is just as capable of doing the same because this case has nothing to do with religion.

where did I say I was OK with Stalin killing millions of people.  I only disagreed with you that he did it soley from the angle of an atheist trying to wipe out religions.   How many more times do you need to hear that.

I'm not aware of any secular anti abortion nutjob or even any secular anti-abortion group (though if you show me one I'll be glad to acknowlege it).   To my knowledge all antiabortion groups have some deep grounding in chritian or catholic beliefs.  In fact these groups tend to have radical and fundamental religious beliefs that are not even shared with the mainstream of their own religion. 


loco

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where did I say I was OK with Stalin killing millions of people.  I only disagreed with you that he did it soley from the angle of an atheist trying to wipe out religions.   How many more times do you need to hear that.

I'm not aware of any secular anti abortion nutjob or even any secular anti-abortion group (though if you show me one I'll be glad to acknowlege it).   To my knowledge all antiabortion groups have some deep grounding in chritian or catholic beliefs.  In fact these groups tend to have radical and fundamental religious beliefs that are not even shared with the mainstream of their own religion. 

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were educated atheists, and they killed millions of innocent people.  Deal with it!

What?  Are you now saying that there are no seculars who are anti-abortion?

Straw Man

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Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were educated atheists, and they killed millions of innocent people.  Deal with it!

deal with what? The fact that they were dictators and killed millions of people in order to consolidate their power.   ok - I'll deal with that

What?  Are you now saying that there are no seculars who are anti-abortion?

I'm saying I'm not aware of any secular anti aborion nutjob (i.e. someone who has committed an act of violence or vandalism).  I'm sure there are some non-regligous people who are against abortion.

I'm not aware of any organized anti-abortion group that does not have some religious affiliation but if want to show me one that would be fine.

loco

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deal with what? The fact that they were dictators and killed millions of people in order to consolidate their power.   ok - I'll deal with that

Go ahead and count this one case of a nut job killing an abortion doctor against Christianity.  I will count intellectual atheists' murder of millions of innoncent people against atheism.  And I'm not the only one.

"The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism."   -  H. Allen Orr

I'm saying I'm not aware of any secular anti aborion nutjob (i.e. someone who has committed an act of violence or vandalism).  I'm sure there are some non-regligous people who are against abortion.

Though not anti-abortion, Weather Underground Organization(WUO) was a radical left organization which committed acts of domestic terrorism in the US, much worse than anti-abortion nut jobs have done.

And the way things are going right now with the economy and an escalation of random killings, I would not bet you'll never see a secular anti-abortionist going nuts and killing others.  No human being is immune to depression and mental illness.  Any secular anti-abortionist is just as capable of going nuts and killing an abortion doctor.

I'm not aware of any organized anti-abortion group that does not have some religious affiliation but if want to show me one that would be fine.

There are many secular people and many secular humanists who are anti-abortion.  And there are anti-abortion groups with no religious affiliation too:

Nat Hentoff is known as a civil libertarian, free speech activist, anti-death penalty advocate, pro-life advocate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Hentoff#Personal_politics

Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League(AAPL)
http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

The Coalition To Extend Life(C.E.L.)
http://www.coalitiontoextendlife.org/news.php#promoteimmortality

loco

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Nat Hentoff on Abortion  
 
Nat Hentoff is a prominent civil libertarian, columnist, and author of many books including Free Speech for Me But Not for Thee. 

To be liberal and pro-life: Nat Hentoff, champion of 'inconvenient life'
Cathryn Donohoe, The Washington Times, November 6, 1989
Until 1984, he had not given much thought to abortion, he says. He had accepted the view of all the women he knew, including his wife, that the right to an abortion is part of a woman's fundamental right to privacy, one that allows her control over her body and, by extension, her life. Then came the case of Baby Jane Doe. She was a Long Island infant born with spina bifida (a condition in which the spinal cord is unprotected because the spinal column does not close properly ...



The Indivisible Fight for Life
Nat Hentoff describes how the right to life is inseperable from other issues such as poverty and the death penalty.



The Specter Of Pro-Choice Eugenics
Nat Hentoff, The Washington Post, May 25, 1991
Pro-choice forces are so intent on removing all obstacles to abortion that eugenics is no specter to them.



Civil Rights And Anti-Abortion Protests
Nat Hentoff, The Washington Post
February 6, 1989
The Right-to-Life movement as a civil rights movement

Pro-lifers are more like the civil rights workers of the 19th century, the Abolitionists, who would not be deterred from their goal of ensuring equal rights for all human beings in this land. They believed, as these civil rights leaders later did, that social change comes only after social upheaval.


Yes, There Are Pro-Life Feminists
Nat Hentoff, The Washington Post, October 29, 1994
For years, women who identify themselves as pro-choice have told me with absolute assurance that it is impossible for a woman to be both pro-life and a feminist. Yet, in various parts of the country, I keep meeting women who indeed are both.



The censoring of feminist history
Nat Hentoff, March 27, 2000

Nat Hentoff describes how the pro-life roots of Feminism have been covered up.



Beyond the 'rehearsed response'
Nat Hentoff, The Village Voice, January 30, 1996
Nat Hentoff on the beginning of life.



Can a Nonperson Be a Victim?
Nat Hentoff, The Washington Post, March 27, 1993

Ana Rosa Rodriguez was born without a right arm. Actually, she was not supposed to have been born. Her mother, 19-year-old Rosa Rodriguez, 7 1/2 months pregnant, had gone to Dr. Abu Hayat on New York's Lower East Side for an abortion. It was botched; Ana Rosa was born the day after... The doctor's attorney's argument is that, according to Roe v. Wade, a fetus is not a person. And under New York state criminal law, unless a person is assaulted, no crime has been committed.


Pro-choice bigots: a view from the pro-life left.
Nat Hentoff, November 30, 1992
Men, women, and teenagers wrote from all over the country that they had thought themselves to be solitary pro-lifers in the office, at school, even at home. They were surprised to find that there was someone else who was against capital punishment, against Reagan and Bush, and dismayed at the annual killing of 1.6 million developing human beings.



Stereotyping Pro-Lifers
Nat Hentoff, The Washington Post, May 16, 1992

The press has a bent toward stereotyping pro-lifers. Accordingly, many readers and viewers have a decidedly limited sense of the diversity of pro-lifers. 

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/nvp/hentoff.html

Straw Man

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Go ahead and count this one case of a nut job killing an abortion doctor against Christianity.  I will count intellectual atheists' murder of millions of innoncent people against atheism.  And I'm not the only one.

"The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism."   -  H. Allen Orr

Stalin was also killing teachers too.  Was he against education?

Though not anti-abortion, Weather Underground Organization(WUO) was a radical left organization which committed acts of domestic terrorism in the US, much worse than anti-abortion nut jobs have done.

yep - those guys were left wing domestic terrorist too.  I can't remember how many people they killed or maimed.  Maybe you know.

And the way things are going right now with the economy and an escalation of random killings, I would not bet you'll never see a secular anti-abortionist going nuts and killing others.  No human being is immune to depression and mental illness.  Any secular anti-abortionist is just as capable of going nuts and killing an abortion doctor.

There are many secular people and many secular humanists who are anti-abortion.  And there are anti-abortion groups with no religious affiliation too:

Nat Hentoff is known as a civil libertarian, free speech activist, anti-death penalty advocate, pro-life advocate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Hentoff#Personal_politics

Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League(AAPL)
http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

The Coalition To Extend Life(C.E.L.)
http://www.coalitiontoextendlife.org/news.php#promoteimmortality

thanks for the links. I'll check them out.

Do you know if anyone from these groups have committed acts of vandalism and violence.

If not, do you have any speculation on why the violence and vandalism comes only from the religous groups?
Do you think the religious groups attract the prolifers who are prone to be crazy or do you think the religious groups extreme rhetoric might be pushing certain people over the edge.


loco

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Stalin was also killing teachers too.  Was he against education?

yep - those guys were left wing domestic terrorist too.  I can't remember how many people they killed or maimed.  Maybe you know.

thanks for the links. I'll check them out.

Do you know if anyone from these groups have committed acts of vandalism and violence.

If not, do you have any speculation on why the violence and vandalism comes only from the religous groups?
Do you think the religious groups attrack the crazy prolifers or do you think the religious groups extreme rhetoric might be pushing certain people over the edge.



All petty arguments that at this point only show you are an intolerant, and as Beach Bum says, paranoid anti-religion extremist. 

Historically, atheists are more dangerous and deadly than Christians.

Straw Man

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There are many secular people and many secular humanists who are anti-abortion.  And there are anti-abortion groups with no religious affiliation too:

Nat Hentoff is known as a civil libertarian, free speech activist, anti-death penalty advocate, pro-life advocate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Hentoff#Personal_politics

one guy - not a group and his activism seems limited to writing articles


Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League(AAPL)
http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

this appears to be only one guy and he even laments on this website that he even writers that he thinks he might be the only anti-religious person who is against abortion.  His site has not been updated since January 2007

The Coalition To Extend Life(C.E.L.)
http://www.coalitiontoextendlife.org/news.php#promoteimmortality

I'm not sure anti-abortion is the primary goal of this crowd.

from there website:

C.E.L. intends to actively promote indefinite life extension and human immortality as a public policy goal of the United States. We intend to win a war on aging by learning how to achieve immortality.


Straw Man

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All petty arguments that at this point only show you are an intolerant, and as Beach Bum says, paranoid anti-religion extremist. 

Historically, atheists are more dangerous and deadly than Christians.

lame way to ignore answering questions that might show your arguments are wrong


In what way am I an extremist or paranoid.  Show me some examples?

Straw Man

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All petty arguments that at this point only show you are an intolerant, and as Beach Bum says, paranoid anti-religion extremist. 

Historically, atheists are more dangerous and deadly than Christians.

historically power crazy dictators have been pretty dangerous.  The Catholic Church was pretty bad too.

Today I don't think atheist or even Christians are that dangerous at all (at least not the ones I know).

My only problem is when a person's religious beliefs compels them to commit acts of violence

I have the same problem with racists who take their beliefs to the point of violence

The same goes for anyone else

Other than that I couldn't give less of a shit what anyone wants to believe

pretty "extreme and paranoid" huh?