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Yev33:

--- Quote from: oldtimer1 on November 14, 2014, 12:12:14 PM ---I also think one of the most important things you can have besides genetics is a work ethic. Many don't have it in any quantity.

Regarding volume I remember a guy told me, he was doing 6 sets of 10 in an exercise. He said he thought of it as trying to get 60 reps. He said the first set was easy, the next one too. He quickly went from set to set using very moderate weights. The time he got to set 5 he was having a tough time. On set 6 he couldn't get 10 reps so essentially he did go to failure.

He did something like this for chest.

Bench press 6 x 10
Incline press 6 x 10
Flat flies 6 x 10


Now a hypothetical HIT guy's approach might be like this all to failure.

Bench 1 x 8
Incline press 1 x 8
Flat flies 1 x 10

Now both approaches are hard work but again comparing apples to oranges in their approach.  If you're a HIT guy you believe the magic bullet is going to failure going for that last rep. If you're a volume guy you will point to the total poundage used and the endurance needed to race through those  6 sets and also counter that you went to failure too.  Is intensity the magic trigger to growth or is pursuing increased muscular endurance? Is it a combination?

 No true double blind results have been made in a truly controlled clinical study where all parameters are tightly controlled. How do you measure determination and work ethic in the math?  Can you get determined identical twins and put them on different programs to test? Sounds insane but I mention it to point out scientifically no one can say without sounding like a fool that they have all answers.

What we have are theories. If a theory is proven it's a fact. We don't have facts. We have observations that are empirical knowledge.

Some general observations are most successful guys started lifting heavy in their early years. Then they moved to the moderate weight volume model.



--- End quote ---

Great post!

I think one of the problems is that in order to get a solid set of data  is monitoring training  for years, not in months or weeks (like most university studies). Five years would be a good sample of consistent hard training. Nothing happens by accident when it comes to building muscle and strength, the challenge is to find accurate patterns.

Even though I don't subscribe to Dorian's training philosophy, I respect his serious, consistent, and detailed approach to training. Monitoring every workout, every set, and every rep. A lot of people say it's unnecessary and neurotic, I disagree. This kind of approach is crucial to finding accurate patterns of what works and what doesn't. 

Donny:
Great thread.

wild willie:
it is my experience that moderate weights and moderate sets will produce damn good results without the injuries.


everyone will  experience some type of injury during their lifting career.......but just not the mega injuries that might come from years of banging extremely heavy poundages.


over the long haul moderate weights and feeling the muscles work will produce the results you are looking for......but many people believe that heavy weights and hit training is the only true way to develop a physique.


Arnold......Dickerson... ...ferrigno......dreher and many others made the best gains of their lives after realizing that quality is much more important than quantity.

look at pics of Arnold from the late sixties when he was into heavier training.......then look at pics after coming to America and training with the likes of gironda........Arnold really became great at that stage of his training career.

Yev33:
I think the injury risk with HIT has less to do with the amount of weight lifted and more with lack of warm up sets (assuming the movements are done with good form). Problem is excessive warm ups go against HIT methods. And lets face it, it is impossible to get your warm ups "just right" all the time. You are either going to do more or less than is really needed.

Also there is there is the whole fight through the pain idea and get those last impossible reps. That really changes your mentality toward training. Potentially causing you to ignore little hints that your body gives you that something is about to go really wrong.

I do think that HIT training creates a favorable environment for injury, but it's not due to heavier weights (assuming proper form).

To me heavy is 4-6 reps per set, moderate is 6-9, and light is 8-12. I don't put numbers to these ranges. Years ago a 325lb squat was heavy, now it's light.

Yev33:
         There is one thing that I heard Dorian say in regard to HIT training that really stuck in my mind. He was asked if he ever did lunges, and he replied that he does not do them because they do not fit into his Heavy Duty philosophy. He was absolutely right, there is no way you can do one all out set of lunges without running into balance issues. I personally think that lunges, step ups, single leg squats etc., are great movements. But they truly work better with multiple sets. I came to the conclusion that if a training theory is incompatible with exercises that I know are beneficial, then I am incompatible with that training theory. 

While I don't agree with all of HIT ideas, I am a firm believer in their theory of progressive overload for building muscle.

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