Re: Pitbulls...........again

[knny187]

Yard of course K.

why do you opt putting the dog on a pinch collar & tied down in the back yard vs other alternatives?

[jmt1]

Pits biting power is in its own leauge. SHow me other dogs that masive that can jump, bite, and HANG and Shake?
Be real here.

Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic – Dr. Barr measured bite forces of many different creatures. Domestic dogs were included in the test.

Here are the results of all of the animals tested:

Humans: 120 pounds of bite pressure

Domestic dogs: 320 LBS of pressure on avg.  A German Shepard, American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) and Rottweiler were tested using a bite sleeve equipped with a specialized computer instrument.  The APBT had the least amount of pressure of the 3 dogs tested.

Wild dogs: 310 lbs

Lions: 600 lbs

White sharks: 600 lbs

Hyenas: 1000 lbs

Snapping turtles: 1000 lbs

Crocodiles: 2500 lbs

[trab]

why do you opt putting the dog on a pinch collar & tied down in the back yard vs other alternatives?

Misscom there Bud.
Pincer only for walking on a lead. NEVER CHAIN like that, that F'n mean and dangerous.
I see these jackass walking powerfull K9s on a piece of string, or one of them wind up Kite flyer things .
Please, If you own a powerfull animal, you need to be able to control it.
Just wait till some damn little yaping peice of crap runs out and grabs a dog your walking. If you cant get his head away and get some disstance quick, you have a big issue for your dog simply defending himself.
Most dogs dont know or care their size.

My Staffie got attacked by a Wolf/ shepard hybred. Put it this way, the guy saved his wolf.
Dude let it run free all over the neighborhood. It'd make 6' piss territory marking scrapes for blocks!
One right next to a school bus stop. He'd stand in his scrape and turn circles and guard it.
Those (Wolf hybreds) should ALL but put down IMO.

[~flower~]

Just wait till some damn little yaping peice of crap runs out and grabs a dog your walking. If you cant get his head away and get some disstance quick, you have a big issue for your dog simply defending himself.
Most dogs dont know or care their size.

Hey!  I have a "little yapping piece of crap".   

   If you expect pit bulls to be respected as a breed, then you should extend the same courtesy to other breeds.

  Every breed of dog was bred for a particular purpose or job, all should be respected for that.   You don't have to like a particular breed, just try and respect it's original purpose.

   One of the reasons I dislike designer breeds, their only purpose is money for the "breeders", but that is a topic for another thread.
   

[Vet]

Doc... Iaint saying they are the massive danger to ppl that the media like to show, it's quite the opposite w/ most Pitts.
BUT THEY ARE DAMN CAPPABLE. Denying that is BS.

Any large dog is "damn capable".  Being a pitbull or a german shepard or a Dogo or a St. Bernard has nothing to do with it.  Its not a breed issue, its a matter of size of the animal and relative muscle mass.  Given that, yes, "Pits" are capable of injuring a person.  Again, it goes back to what i've been saying all along---its responsible pet ownership, not the breed that prevents animal bites. 

Their chewing abilty is unbelievabe. They dont let go. Its deep in their nature. You know that. 

I know what you just posted is pure bullshit.  You've obviously never worked a pack of coonhounds "hitting" a big raccoon.  Pits have the same relative chewing ability to any other breed of dog.  True, they have increased muscle mass of their head and neck relative to some breeds, but stop and think for a minute.  The limiting factor with a bite isn't the muscle mass but the structure and strength of the teeth.  If you believe some of the bullshit internet crap about pitbull biting force, you have to think that they've got supercanine teeth too.  2000 lbs of biting force would absolutely shatter their teeth, thus preventing them from holding onto anything.  They are a dog, and just like any other dog, they are capable of biting a human hard enough to puncture the skin, but they are not "unbelievable".   One of the most impressive bite performances I've ever seen was with a Shutzhund III Malinois dog I had as a patient right out of veterinary school.  The dogs handler was throwing a tennis ball, bouncing it off a car tire in the hospital parking lot as he was talking to me and a couple of other employees about his dogs (everyone was gone).  The ball took an odd bounce, and as the dog jumped for it, he missed, biting into the sidewall of the tire on the car---puncturing the tire wall, blowing out the tire, and breaking off his canine tooth.  This was a 60 lb Malinois, not a 60 lb Pitbull.   My point is all dogs are capable of biting and pits aren't some supernatural force.  They are a dog. 

My opinion is they belong..
1. Indoors                                   
 2. on a stout piece of chain, on your property where nobody that dont know that dog has legal right to  be, (even that can go wrong w/  strange kids).                       
         
3. On a stout lead, w/ a pincer choke-collar and someone strong enough to control that animal.

All these ppl w/  cheap chain link or wood fence in the city with  pitts sticking their heads over the top are at a extreme liabilty issue. Those that lett them run free are brain dead.

In a round about way  I don't disagree with you, but my thoughts are based on the ridiculous bias people have towards pitbulls.  When I used to work for the humane society, just about every large headed dog was called a "pit". I really think the average schmuck has no idea what an Amstaff or APBT really is.  They cannot or choose not to tell that breed from a group of 10 similar looking dogs.  That stupidity/lack of knowledge complicates things for pitbull owners.   My dogs are inside all the time unless I'm outside to watch them.  I'll be honest, I rarely leash them, but I will use the leash if there are strange dogs or people around so I've got physical control of the dog.  My dogs are also all trained the "heel tight" meaning they heel to my left side touching me or just about touching me at all times unless i tell them to relax.  They are trained to "stop" and "Look" under all conditions---we are working with the puppy now to break up intense play with the other dogs where she has to "stop" and "look" at my wife and I immediately, no matter how rough they are playing.  The idea behind this is based on the Shutzhund idea of having verbal control over the dog at all times.  Again, I consider it responsible pet ownership.  A pincer/choke chain isn't going to do shit to stop an overexhuberant excited dog if the owner hasn't taken the time to train it appropriately.  I've seen dogs injured by choke chains from owners yanking on them---you can collapse a dogs larynx if you aren't careful.  they aren't the answer. 

Pitts and Rotties both got to popular for their own good. Whats being bred is a joke.
Agressive animals aint funny, a lab or shepard bites; A pit grabs, and shakes till a piece comes off, then chokes up deeper!  Dont deny what these animals can do. And even though domesticated, they are ANIMALS w/ instincts and automatic reactions at times.
I doubt you'd last long at work w/ out keeping that in mind.

Dude, my advice to you is drop your preconcieved ideas.  There is such bias with what you are posting, its going to be hard, but from what I see, you've bought into some ridiculous stuff.  A pit is a dog.  Dogs can bite.  No one is not denying that.  The thing is they are not some superanimal killing machine like you seem to have in your mental image.  They also don't have a long prolific history of being ridiculous superanimal killing machines other than that created in peoples minds and by the media.   They are a dog. 

[trab]

Hey!  I have a "little yapping piece of crap".   

   If you expect pit bulls to be respected as a breed, then you should extend the same courtesy to other breeds.

  Every breed of dog was bred for a particular purpose or job, all should be respected for that.   You don't have to like a particular breed, just try and respect it's original purpose.

   One of the reasons I dislike designer breeds, their only purpose is money for the "breeders", but that is a topic for another thread.
   

Well, YOU dont let it jump off the porch and attack every passerby on the sidewalk though. SO it not one of them.
Many People think just becaues its not a big dog they can let it run free, well, Ive seen a serious car accident because of a dog running out in the road.
    If someone is walking a big dog and the small "harmless" dog runs out and
creates a problem, it's really  the person w/ the unleashed dogs fault. Thats a good way to loose a pitt or Rottie etc.
That stuff often happens too fast to stop.

[Vet]

Vet, I'm really surprised to see YOU write this. Revisionist historian?
Fill 'em in on Dog fighting history, you know it Im sure.

Gameness w/ Pitts refers to their refusal to let go, or surrender, at all costs.
 That is if you are still calling them "Pitt Bulls".
They are one of the Fighting breeds that man has bred over the ages. Rat terriers fought rats while men gambled in England after dog fighting became illegal. I believe Sharpies (sp) loose skin was a fighting breed byproduct.

Guy Tells me they have the same biting power as other breeds? Well, 20 more yrs of breeding the scraggly mangy stuff people are now calling "Pitts" and He'll then be correct.
 

Again, "Gameness" is the intensity of purpose of which a dog is able to perform a job designated by its owner.   A game dog is "intense" in that it will pursue a "job" with a singlemindedness that bypasses all distractors.  Gameness has nothing to do with killing ability.  its a term that is used for many, many different activities in different breeds.



As far as history of the breed goes:
I know that the worst cases of animal abuse I've ever seen have all been towards pitbulls.  The torture and damage some of these dogs are forced to endure is enough to give a sane person nightmares.

I know that Helen Keller---a blind deaf woman owned a pitbull

I know that President Teddy Roosevelt owned a pitbull terrier. 

I know that my great great grandfather used a pitbull for hearding the cattle, hunting, and guarding his family.  This is the same dog that ran along side of their wagon as they moved into Missouri almost 2 centuries ago. 

I know that the dog in the little rascals television show as a pitbull, and it was chosen as a reflection of the dogs people kept at that time--just like Eddie on Frasier and all of the television dogs that you now see.

I know that some of the best drug sniffing dogs currently employed by the US are pitbulls

I know that the American Pitbull was a symbol of valor used for US based war propoganda during WWI and WWII. 
I will not deny the history of the breed and the fighting that was part of that history, but I will also not choose to ignore the deeper history that is so much more of this dog, a dog that helped forge the nation I call my home. 

[trab]

Any large dog is "damn capable".  Being a pitbull or a german shepard or a Dogo or a St. Bernard has nothing to do with it.  Its not a breed issue, its a matter of size of the animal and relative muscle mass.  Given that, yes, "Pits" are capable of injuring a person.  Again, it goes back to what i've been saying all along---its responsible pet ownership, not the breed that prevents animal bites. 


I know what you just posted is pure bullshit.  You've obviously never worked a pack of #### hounds "hitting" a big ####.  Pits have the same relative chewing ability to any other breed of dog.  True, they have increased muscle mass of their head and neck relative to some breeds, but stop and think for a minute.  The limiting factor with a bite isn't the muscle mass but the structure and strength of the teeth.  If you believe some of the bullshit internet crap about pitbull biting force, you have to think that they've got supercanine teeth too.  2000 lbs of biting force would absolutely shatter their teeth, thus preventing them from holding onto anything.  They are a dog, and just like any other dog, they are capable of biting a human hard enough to puncture the skin, but they are not "unbelievable".   One of the most impressive bite performances I've ever seen was with a Shutzhund III Malinois dog I had as a patient right out of veterinary school.  The dogs handler was throwing a tennis ball, bouncing it off a car tire in the hospital parking lot as he was talking to me and a couple of other employees about his dogs (everyone was gone).  The ball took an odd bounce, and as the dog jumped for it, he missed, biting into the sidewall of the tire on the car---puncturing the tire wall, blowing out the tire, and breaking off his canine tooth.  This was a 60 lb Malinois, not a 60 lb Pitbull.   My point is all dogs are capable of biting and pits aren't some supernatural force.  They are a dog. 

In a round about way  I don't disagree with you, but my thoughts are based on the ridiculous bias people have towards pitbulls.  When I used to work for the humane society, just about every large headed dog was called a "pit". I really think the average schmuck has no idea what an Amstaff or APBT really is.  They cannot or choose not to tell that breed from a group of 10 similar looking dogs.  That stupidity/lack of knowledge complicates things for pitbull owners.   My dogs are inside all the time unless I'm outside to watch them.  I'll be honest, I rarely leash them, but I will use the leash if there are strange dogs or people around so I've got physical control of the dog.  My dogs are also all trained the "heel tight" meaning they heel to my left side touching me or just about touching me at all times unless i tell them to relax.  They are trained to "stop" and "Look" under all conditions---we are working with the puppy now to break up intense play with the other dogs where she has to "stop" and "look" at my wife and I immediately, no matter how rough they are playing.  The idea behind this is based on the Shutzhund idea of having verbal control over the dog at all times.  Again, I consider it responsible pet ownership.  A pincer/choke chain isn't going to do shit to stop an overexhuberant excited dog if the owner hasn't taken the time to train it appropriately.  I've seen dogs injured by choke chains from owners yanking on them---you can collapse a dogs larynx if you aren't careful.  they aren't the answer. 
Dude, my advice to you is drop your preconcieved ideas.  There is such bias with what you are posting, its going to be hard, but from what I see, you've bought into some ridiculous stuff.  A pit is a dog.  Dogs can bite.  No one is not denying that.  The thing is they are not some superanimal killing machine like you seem to have in your mental image.  They also don't have a long prolific history of being ridiculous superanimal killing machines other than that created in peoples minds and by the media.   They are a dog. 

Vet there is absolutely no point arguing w/ someone who is going to say pitbulls bite is not much different than other breed. I doubt you believe it. I like pitts too. But im not going to sugarcoat what they are capable of.
"Pits have the same relative chewing abiliyt" ... WOW! 
YOu also have not read very carefully what Ive wrote. Im not calling them some supernatural killing machine.
But your denial that they are capable of extra ordinary biting and holding power, and having a will that refuses to release is just plain not what anyone who owns them knows is true. Total denial.
Im suprised to hear this form a Vet. ALL Vets Ive known are EXTRA cautious of these animals (and they Loved mine). Rather Get bit by a 80lb lab or a 50lb pit grab hold of you?...Hmmmm

[Vet]

Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic – Dr. Barr measured bite forces of many different creatures. Domestic dogs were included in the test.

Here are the results of all of the animals tested:

Humans: 120 pounds of bite pressure

Domestic dogs: 320 LBS of pressure on avg.  A German Shepard, American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) and Rottweiler were tested using a bite sleeve equipped with a specialized computer instrument.  The APBT had the least amount of pressure of the 3 dogs tested.

Wild dogs: 310 lbs

Lions: 600 lbs

White sharks: 600 lbs

Hyenas: 1000 lbs

Snapping turtles: 1000 lbs

Crocodiles: 2500 lbs

This was a very interesting study.  There was one flaw to it that needs to be acknowledged.... even though the pitbull tested was trained to a sleeve, the handler stated they had a hard time getting an accurate measurement on the bite of the APBT because the dog seemed to "hold back" a bit while biting the sleeve.  

I know a couple of people who have tried to train pits for Shutzhund and they have made similar comments--they are reluctant to hit the sleeve compared to a shepard or other breeds.  The dogs do amazingly well at tracking and obedience, but they have a very hard time getting the dog to take the sleeve.  To me it again points out the nature of the breed and the general reluctance for a trained and appropriately socialized pit to bite a human.  This was also proven to me when I was in veterinary school.  My wife had my dogs in our back yard---we had a 5 foot privacy fence.  She was playing fetch with my male pit, when suddenly another dog was thrown over the fence, it hits the ground and attacks my dog.  It turns out the neighbor thug rugrats wanted to see a dog fight so they took their dads dog, untied him, brought him down the street, whipped him with the leash (to wind him up) and then threw him over my fence practically ontop of my dog.  Unfortunately this strange dog also attacked my dog.  My wife got them apart by literally putting her hand inside Teddys mouth to keep him from biting the strange dog and roping the strange dog with a leash and restraining it until she had verbal control over our dog.  Teddy would not bite down on her hand---now I'll be the first to say what she did was seriously stupid, especially considering she needs her hands as a surgeon, but it is another example of the reluctance of well socialized pitbulls from biting their owners/humans.  And I'll be the first to say Teddy was the most dog aggressive pit I've ever owned.

The bottom line is they are not mindless killing machines.  They are dogs. They can be trained and they can be socialized to be very level headed stable family pets.  

[Vet]

Vet there is absolutely no point arguing w/ someone who is going to say pitbulls bite is not much different than other breed. I doubt you believe it. I like pitts too. But im not going to sugarcoat what they are capable of.
"Pits have the same relative chewing abiliyt" ... WOW! 
YOu also have not read very carefully what Ive wrote. Im not calling them some supernatural killing machine.
But your denial that they are capable of extra ordinary biting and holding power, and having a will that refuses to release is just plain not what anyone who owns them knows is true. Total denial.
Im suprised to hear this form a Vet. ALL Vets Ive known are EXTRA cautious of these animals (and they Loved mine). Rather Get bit by a 80lb lab or a 50lb pit grab hold of you?...Hmmmm

LOL.  Trab, you really don't know what you are talking about.  They are a dog. they are capable of biting just like any other large dog.  What I'm saying is they have the same tooth structure of any other large dog.  That is the limiting factor.  they don't shatter their teeth when they do these increadibly strong bites you are talking about do they?  Think about it.  The tooth breaking strength is the limiting factor with any bite. 

I personally dont' want to get bitten by any dog.  Dog bites hurt be it a chihuahua or a pitbull.   

[Vet]

Misscom there Bud.
Pincer only for walking on a lead. NEVER CHAIN like that, that F'n mean and dangerous.
I see these jackass walking powerfull K9s on a piece of string, or one of them wind up Kite flyer things .
Please, If you own a powerfull animal, you need to be able to control it.
Just wait till some damn little yaping peice of crap runs out and grabs a dog your walking. If you cant get his head away and get some disstance quick, you have a big issue for your dog simply defending himself.
Most dogs dont know or care their size.

My Staffie got attacked by a Wolf/ shepard hybred. Put it this way, the guy saved his wolf.
Dude let it run free all over the neighborhood. It'd make 6' piss territory marking scrapes for blocks!
One right next to a school bus stop. He'd stand in his scrape and turn circles and guard it.
Those (Wolf hybreds) should ALL but put down IMO.

Again, I agree with the first part of what you are posting---but its responsible pet ownership, not the need for a choke chain or pinch collar. 


As far as wolf hybrids---most of the ones I've encountered aren't.  They are shepard breed dogs and owners who think owning a wolf is something cool.  Now don't get me wrong, there are true wolf hybrids out there, but they are much, much fewer than the majority of people who talk about them want to acknowledge.  think about it, to get a wolf hybrid, you need to have a female dog (or wolf) that is receptive to being bred by a wolf (or dog), they need to breed, and they need to produce viable offspring that you then breed back to the wolf.  The nature of dogs and wolves by itself makes this a very, very difficult task.   I just don't see the average dog/wolf cross occuring without a great deal of human intervention. 

[~flower~]

Well, YOU dont let it jump off the porch and attack every passerby on the sidewalk though. SO it not one of them.
Many People think just becaues its not a big dog they can let it run free, well, Ive seen a serious car accident because of a dog running out in the road.
    If someone is walking a big dog and the small "harmless" dog runs out and
creates a problem, it's really  the person w/ the unleashed dogs fault. Thats a good way to loose a pitt or Rottie etc.
That stuff often happens too fast to stop.

  Well I have been approached while walking my dogs by both small dogs and a larger dogs, including a pit bull.  I see dogs of all sizes out in people's yard, off leash on our walks.   I don't care what size the dog is, I do not appreciate a dog coming up to me and my dogs. Especially now that I usually have all 4 of my dogs, or about 400# of dog plus whatever the rude dog weighs to contend with.

   My point was you calling them "little yappy pieces of crap" is like someone calling pits "man eating pieces of crap".  Neither dog is a piece of crap.  

[Vet]

 

   My point was you calling them "little yappy pieces of crap" is like someone calling pits "man eating pieces of crap".  Neither dog is a piece of crap.  

I agree. 

[jmt1]

This was a very interesting study.  There was one flaw to it that needs to be acknowledged.... even though the pitbull tested was trained to a sleeve, the handler stated they had a hard time getting an accurate measurement on the bite of the APBT because the dog seemed to "hold back" a bit while biting the sleeve.  

yes i would agree with that.  it would be in the pits nature not to bite down on the sleave at full force.  even when taking that into consideration i think it would be a safe assumtion that even at full force the psi wouldnt be off the chart compared to other dogs.  i mean i have seen outrageous claims of a psi any where from 1000 to 1800.  this often goes along with the so call locking jaw myth.

[~flower~]

I agree. 

  stop agreeing with me!!  You're creeping me out!!      

[trab]

LOL.  Trab, you really don't know what you are talking about.  They are a dog. they are capable of biting just like any other large dog.  What I'm saying is they have the same tooth structure of any other large dog.  That is the limiting factor.  they don't shatter their teeth when they do these increadibly strong bites you are talking about do they?  Think about it.  The tooth breaking strength is the limiting factor with any bite. 

I personally dont' want to get bitten by any dog.  Dog bites hurt be it a chihuahua or a pitbull.   

I know EXACTLY what Im talking about.
YOur sugar coating the breed. SHe's lucky she's got her hand is right!
And yes theres human intervention in creating wolf/ shepards - you well know that.
And pits were bred to fight FOR humans not attack them. Thier bite is way worse than other breeds, show me pics of how many other large breed can hang suspended like pitts ENJOY doing!!!

Dont protect all these jerks w/ a flimsy little wire or chain Link or wood fence w/ a Pitt or other larger breed in it.
FOR THOSE WHO DO - CONSIDER THIS - That animal mauls or kills someones kid - they might just NOT settle it w/ lawyers and the courts!!
Control your animal is the law.

[knny187]

One thing I do know...that I've never had a dog with jaw strength like our Rottie.

He gets a  hold of a kids ball for a split second & "poof".....it's deflated.  Kind of funny actually.

I gave him an 8lb medicine ball just to see what happened.  Well...no lie here...but I had to take it away because in a matter of a minute...he was shredding it.



But the thing thats funny....it's not his jaw strength I worry about...it's his tongue strength - lol

If I'm on the floor laughing at something...he immediately attacks me licking me like crazy & I swear he's trying to lodge his tongue down my ear canal - lol

[Luv2Hurt]

There are certain breeds that Iam always more cautious around.  Will agree that it is not the breed so much as to how the dog was raised and socialized and how the owner keeps it.  A golden retriever could be a biter if there are behavioral issues.

With that said the breeds I observe for aggression closest when Iam around them are:  Rotweilers, Dobermans, Pitbulls, German Shepard, Chows, Dalmations, there are others.  I have read that Pitbull bites were many times more than other breeds considering how many there are.  It is dispropotionate against them....what gives??


Lots of people in my neighborhood have the Little terriers and others and most of them are complete monsters!!  The people never socialized them with anyone or other dogs and the things will snap and snarl.  My dog Cody the Lab just looks at them like what the hell?  He has been in packs of dogs since he was 3 months and knows how to approach another dog, as we walk past these little dogs are all teeth and barks!  The owners are there like dumb asses thinking it is no big deal "thats just the way little fefe is"  Not all are like this but the numbers are disproportionately high against them too.

And yes you must by law always control your dog, it is your responsibility.

[chaos]

I have owned several pits. They should be raised correctly. Which includes proper socialization starting from the time they are puppy's. If a person has to treat there pit like a "weapon" or a piece of "equipment" they have no idea how to train dogs correctly imo. Guns are kept locked away. Dangerous equipment is kept locked up. I cant understand a properly socialized dog having to be treated like a gun.

There should always be supervision when a dog is interacting with kids or strangers. If they need to be treated like a "gun" the owner did not do a good job training his dog. My pits never got into a fight where blood was drawn.

I think what he was getting at was that a pit should be respected and trained as such. Not necessarily saying it should be locked up, just have to respect the power and gameness of the breed.

[Vet]

I think what he was getting at was that a pit should be respected and trained as such. Not necessarily saying it should be locked up, just have to respect the power and gameness of the breed.

I think we are all saying that you need to respect large breed dogs---they are all capable of delivering terrible bites to humans.  I've personally had to use a "bite stick" to get a black lab off another dog when they got into a fight at a kennel I used to work at.   These are black labs, not pitbulls.  The one had the other by the back of the neck and was shaking it like a rag doll.  I smashed my cup over the dogs head trying to get them apart.  A hose didn't work either.   

Thats where I'm coming from with my statements about biting force of pitbulls.  Anatomically, they have no special structure that allows their jaws to "lock".   Their bite strength is like all other breeds in that its proportional to head muscle mass and jaw structure.   They have no special structure that gives them some form of supercanine biting ability---as a matter of fact anyone who has done anything with dogs who have actually been fought (which I will reluctantly admit, I've had enough dealings with these dogs, handlers of these dogs, and breeders of these dogs through the years) knows that its not the hardest biting dog that wins in a fight.  This is much like a human boxer, in that the hardest hitting boxer isn't always the one that wins a fight.  Its a combination of tenaciousness, agility, strength, skill, and speed.   If you really want to get involved with those type of illegal (and terrible) activities and you think that your dog is something because it bites hard, you will soon learn you have a whole lot to learn about dogs. 

In my experience dealing with pits in multiple states, it seems like the humans who will argue the hardest that pitbulls have some amazing, unnatural biting ability are either inner city punks who are selling the dogs for $1000 apiece out of the trunk of their car----people who obviously are trying to make a profit or they are people with this need to make themselves feel better by having this "super dog" or they are simply uneducated and they are spouting out something someone else has told them with little thought on what they are actually saying---unfortunately, I've seen some very educated individuals, including veterinary staff who will inadvertantly do this with pitbulls---I did relief work for one who swore that pits could "lock" their jaws with some special unidentified mechanism.  That person was an idiot if you ask me because of the way he argued and argued and argued against scientific references (one of the best studies was out of Cornell Univeristy) that pitbulls do not have a special jaw structure, their bite is proportional to any other dogs considering muscle mass and head structure. 

  I'm not denying that pitbulls are large, powerful dogs, and in being such are capable of damaging bites to humans.  The thing is they have absolutely no structure anatomically or physiologically that gives them some supercanine biting ability.  They are a dog.  Properly socialized and trained, they will make a wonderful family pet. 

[Hedgehog]

Don't dodge the issue here. A forum is a place of discussion.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/breeds-causing-DBRFs.pdf

Ok,

it would be real interesting to get flower's and knny's comments on these numbers:

Breed                         1980 1982 1984 1986 1988 1990 1992 1994 1996 1998 Total
Purebred
Pit bull-type                   2     5      10     9      11*  8      6      5      4*    6    66
Rottweiler                      0     0       1      1      3     1      3     10     10    10   39
German Shepherd Dog      2     1       4*    1      1     4*     2      0      2      0   17
Husky-type                    2     1       2      2      0     2       2      1      2      1   15
Malamute                      2      0      3      1       0     2      3       1      0      0   12
Doberman Pinscher 0 1 0 2 2 2 1 0 0 1 9
Chow Chow 0 1 0 0 0 2 3 0 2 0 8
Great Dane 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 7
Saint Bernard 1 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 7

Crossbred
Wolf-dog hybrid 0 1 1 2 1 4 1 2 2 0 14
Mixed-breed 0 3 1 2 1 2 0 1 1 1 12
German Shepherd Dog 0 2 0 2 2 2† 0 1 2 0 10†
Pit bull-type 0 1 0 3 2† 3 1 1 0 0 10†
Husky-type 0 1 1 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 6
Rottweiler 0 0 0 0 1† 1 0 1 1 2 5†
Alaskan Malamute 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 0 3
Chow Chow 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 3
Doberman Pinscher 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0
Saint Bernard 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Great Dane 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1† 0†

No. deaths for which 10 20 26* 24 22 34* 24 25 26* 27 238
breed was known
*Numbers differ from previous reports because police/guard dogs "at work" were excluded, and 1 new DBRF was identified as occurring in 1996. †A purebred dog
and a crossbred dog of this breed were involved in a single fatality; therefore, that breed is counted only once in the total column.
Table 1—Breeds of dogs involved in human dog bite-related fatalities (DBRF) in the United States, by 2-year period, between 1979 and
1998.

Now, I didn't see any Golden Retrievers on that list, despite it being a very popular breed.

Didn't see too many Golden Retriever's on that list.

Question for body88: Did that list include all attacks, meaning did it include the attacks of the pitbulls and other kinds of bullterriers as well?


If not, it doesn't give a true picture of which dogs bites the most.

My opinion still stands, only breeds like Golden Retriever and such should be allowed. No need for other breeds, really.

Police and narcotics, or fire departments could have use for different breeds, but all in all, get rid of the most aggressive ones, the bastards.

-Hedge

There are alternative dog models.

A Golden Retriever is an excellent alternative, would fit perfect with all these tough guys raising "Pits".

-Hedge

I've seen agressive Golden Retrievers....damn thing would snarl & try to bite you


but it was due to a bad owner involving physical abuse.





Gee...I wonder if there was a connecion there?

Apparantly, Golden Retrievers aren't lethal.

Lets try to be creative. What can be done to make pitbulls as safe as golden retrievers and other breeds?

-Hedge

[body88]

Ok,

it would be real interesting to get flower's and knny's comments on these numbers:

Breed                         1980 1982 1984 1986 1988 1990 1992 1994 1996 1998 Total
Purebred
Pit bull-type                   2     5      10     9      11*  8      6      5      4*    6    66
Rottweiler                      0     0       1      1      3     1      3     10     10    10   39
German Shepherd Dog      2     1       4*    1      1     4*     2      0      2      0   17
Husky-type                    2     1       2      2      0     2       2      1      2      1   15
Malamute                      2      0      3      1       0     2      3       1      0      0   12
Doberman Pinscher 0 1 0 2 2 2 1 0 0 1 9
Chow Chow 0 1 0 0 0 2 3 0 2 0 8
Great Dane 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 7
Saint Bernard 1 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 7

Crossbred
Wolf-dog hybrid 0 1 1 2 1 4 1 2 2 0 14
Mixed-breed 0 3 1 2 1 2 0 1 1 1 12
German Shepherd Dog 0 2 0 2 2 2† 0 1 2 0 10†
Pit bull-type 0 1 0 3 2† 3 1 1 0 0 10†
Husky-type 0 1 1 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 6
Rottweiler 0 0 0 0 1† 1 0 1 1 2 5†
Alaskan Malamute 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 0 3
Chow Chow 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 3
Doberman Pinscher 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0
Saint Bernard 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Great Dane 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1† 0†

No. deaths for which 10 20 26* 24 22 34* 24 25 26* 27 238
breed was known
*Numbers differ from previous reports because police/guard dogs "at work" were excluded, and 1 new DBRF was identified as occurring in 1996. †A purebred dog
and a crossbred dog of this breed were involved in a single fatality; therefore, that breed is counted only once in the total column.
Table 1—Breeds of dogs involved in human dog bite-related fatalities (DBRF) in the United States, by 2-year period, between 1979 and
1998.

Now, I didn't see any Golden Retrievers on that list, despite it being a very popular breed.

Apparantly, Golden Retrievers aren't lethal.

Lets try to be creative. What can be done to make pitbulls as safe as golden retrievers and other breeds?

-Hedge

A pitbull type includes about 10 different breeds and also the muts. That is hardly accurate when talking about American pitbull terriors. Pitbull type's can include apbt's, bandogg's, American bull's ( all four types), dogos, presa's, staffys, bull terriors, boxers any type of pit to name a few.

[body88]

I think what he was getting at was that a pit should be respected and trained as such. Not necessarily saying it should be locked up, just have to respect the power and gameness of the breed.

The way I read his post he was insulating pitbulls should be treated as weapons and machines. While a pitbull should always be respected, it should not have to be treated like a weapon. You did not do a good job if that is the case. Then there was the referance to bone crushing fighting lines. Pretty much sums it all up. Gives pits a bad name.

I always wonder why 200 lb st Bernard's are not talked about when discussing the potential dangers of a breed. A intact, aggressive , 200 lb St Bernard is a potential dangerous animal. Breeds like that are never mentioned because they are cuddly and cute.

[~flower~]

Ok,

it would be real interesting to get flower's and knny's comments on these numbers:

I personally will not comment (ha surprise! ) because that is an area that I have not done any research into.  I will just say that take those numbers with a grain of salt, a lot of dog bites don't get reported especially if the bite was not severe enough to warrant medical attention.    Those charts were for fatalities correct?   So you would expect not to see small or average breeds listed because they would probably not be fatal attacks unless it was a baby.   Again, I have done practically zero research into this, so my opinions hold no weight.

[~flower~]

I always wonder why 200 lb st Bernard's are not talked about when discussing the potential dangers of a breed. A intact, aggressive , 200 lb St Bernard is a potential dangerous animal. Breeds like that are never mentioned because they are cuddly and cute.

 Any dog can attack and bite someone, but some breeds are known for NOT doing that no matter the size.