Author Topic: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return  (Read 889 times)

Tito24

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Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« on: January 08, 2010, 09:04:18 AM »
Does anyone know what the real rate of return on investment is...***

the consensus seems to be about 2.16%....



this thread is not a joke...

Soul Crusher

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2010, 09:21:31 AM »
Does anyone know what the real rate of return on investment is...***

the consensus seems to be about 2.16%....



this thread is not a joke...

Give me a break. 

S.S. is nothing more than a Madoff Scheme of the worst order.  There is no "rate of return" since its not an investment.  Its a tax and lottery system. 

You pay in your whole life and if you die at 62 y/o guess what?  Your family doesnt get shit! 

S.S. really needs to be abolished. 

Tito24

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2010, 09:25:52 AM »
Give me a break. 

S.S. is nothing more than a Madoff Scheme of the worst order.  There is no "rate of return" since its not an investment.  Its a tax and lottery system. 

You pay in your whole life and if you die at 62 y/o guess what?  Your family doesnt get shit! 

S.S. really needs to be abolished. 

Good post..

however, i was looking for nominal and real figures... :'(


Soul Crusher

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2010, 09:29:36 AM »
Good post..

however, i was looking for nominal and real figures... :'(



There is no nominal or real figure since the so called "trust fund" is a complete lie.  The govt issues IOU's to itself with the money they steal from taxpayers and the money is never really "invested" in the sense of the word. 

There is no bank account with the Markos Chamakh SS payments you have paid in your whole life.  It does not exist.  They send you a bogus statement every quarter or so.  However, the money paid in essentially goes into the general fund and is used to finance current spending. 


Soul Crusher

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2010, 09:33:33 AM »
What do Social Security and Madoff have in common?
Email|Link Posted by Jamie Downey December 30, 2008 09:20 AM
www.boston.com

________________________ ________________________ ______________

It's difficult to comprehend how Bernie Madoff could have executed a $50 billion pyramid scheme that lasted over 30 years. However, like all pyramid schemes, it had to come to an end because there were not enough new investors to fund redemptions.

If it is true that all pyramid schemes are terminal, can we honestly expect Social Security to last indefinitely? It's not likely, especially considering that the Social Security Administration (SSA) itself has called the system unsustainable in the long run. One can expect significant changes to the system in coming years. By the time Generation X and Y reach retirement age, the system will be considerably different.

To support the notion that Social Security resembles a pyramid scheme, I compared the SSA and the Madoff fraud case. Here's where they share common ground:

1. Legitimate investment vehicles take investor funds and invest them in businesses, real estate, and other assets. These investments are intend to generate returns for shareholders. Madoff didn't do this. He paid off early investors with cash from subsequent investors. Investment assets were never purchased.

Similarly, Social Security has no investments. It pays retirees benefits with cash deposited by younger workers. What’s worse is that Social Security has taken in a surplus of funds over the years. Instead of investing the extra funds legitimately, the government spent it on other programs. Now Social Security is completely unfunded -- something that's illegal for companies to do but not the government.

2. Madoff's early investors received excellent returns, which averaged 12 percent to 14 percent a year. Similarly, Social Security provided excellent returns to its early participants. The first person to receive monthly Social Security benefits was a woman named Ida May Fuller. She paid $24.75 total into the Social Security system over a three year period, and received $22,889 during her lifetime. Even Madoff was not so egregious to provide such a large return to his early investors.

3. Each quarter, Madoff sent fraudulent monthly statements to his investors. These statements were works of fiction -- there were no assets backing these investments. Similarly, each year all Americans get a statement from the SSA. This statement too is a work of fiction. There are no real assets backing the annuity that's promised to us. Furthermore, Congress and the President can merely change the law and that promised annuity will vanish. The SSA's statement should include the same disclaimer that's required to be on all investment prospectus statements: “Actual results may vary.”

In the final months of Madoff’s fraud, there were some $7 billion in investor redemptions. Madoff frantically tried to raise enough money to fund these redemptions, but to no avail. Finally, he confessed to authorities and the fraud was revealed. In the not too distant future, redemptions from Social Security will start to exceed the cash inflows from taxpayers. At that point, the US government may need to raise taxes and cut benefits to head off this cash drain from their coffers.

My friends from Generation X and Y, be prepared: Those monthly checks from the US Treasury won't be what you expect.

Tito24

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2010, 09:39:51 AM »
I heard there's a town in texas that is on some pilot program, where they don't have to pay into the Social security system...I heard they pay into managed Stock and bond accounts...last i heard everyone in the town was very happy

Soul Crusher

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2010, 09:42:21 AM »
Good graph.  S.S. was a huge mistake by the govt. and is a complete sham. 

Imagine paying in your whole fucking life, dying at 62 y/o and your family gets nothing? 

And you guys wonder why I hate the govt so much?

Tito24

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2010, 09:47:53 AM »
Good graph.  S.S. was a huge mistake by the govt. and is a complete sham. 

Imagine paying in your whole fucking life, dying at 62 y/o and your family gets nothing? 

And you guys wonder why I hate the govt so much?

I'm starting to hate the government as well..

sometimes i think about holding tea parties, etc. :-\

Soul Crusher

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2010, 09:52:18 AM »
I'm starting to hate the government as well..

sometimes i think about holding tea parties, etc. :-\


Even if they took in your own money and put it in a segregated account solely for your personal benefit and had a death benefit or at least a beneficiary provision to where your family got the money you put in, and they put it in CD's or T'Bills, I would be ok with that. 

Can you imagine someone now who lives to 105 y/o and paid in only 20,000 over their lifetime and has been taking out 12 or 18k a year since being 65 y/o? 

Do the math!

Tito24

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2010, 10:10:33 AM »
Even if they took in your own money and put it in a segregated account solely for your personal benefit and had a death benefit or at least a beneficiary provision to where your family got the money you put in, and they put it in CD's or T'Bills, I would be ok with that. 

Can you imagine someone now who lives to 105 y/o and paid in only 20,000 over their lifetime and has been taking out 12 or 18k a year since being 65 y/o? 

Do the math!


All good ideas...

However, you have to keep in mind that the women who paid in 24 dollars was in nominal figures and not adjusted for inflation...

Remember the hyper inflation periods of the 1980's..

Tito24

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2010, 10:25:15 AM »
i don't expect anyone to read this garbage i'm about to post... :o


Myth No. 1: There is no Social Security trust fund. You may have heard this assertion so often that you'll be surprised to learn that there really IS a Social Security trust fund that collects our payroll taxes and invests the surplus. It's called the Old-Age and Survivors Insurance and Disability Insurance Trust Funds.
What isn't in the trust fund is a big hoard of cash.
Three-quarters of the money that's collected in Social Security taxes goes right out the door again in the form of benefits to Social Security recipients. The surplus that isn't needed to pay benefits is loaned to the federal government to pay for other programs.
In return for this loan, the trust fund gets IOUs in the form of special-issue, interest-paying Treasury bonds. The interest isn't paid in cash, however; the Treasury issues the fund additional bonds for the interest amount. In 2006, the fund was credited with more than $102 billion in interest; the total value of the securities is about $2 trillion.Critics often deride these bonds as "a bookkeeping entry" or a fiction, but they're real obligations of the U.S. government, said Steve Goss, Social Security's chief actuary. In the past, they've been cashed in when Social Security or its sister program, Medicare, temporarily ran low on funds. The last time was in the early 1980s.
"They're backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government," Goss said. "They're every bit as real . . . as any savings bond or Treasury bond any individual might hold in society."The problem, of course, is that the government now owes the trust fund so much money -- and relies on its surplus so heavily -- that real problems will be created when it comes time to cash in those IOUs. Uncle Sam is going to need to find another source of income to replace the surplus (or cut spending, or borrow money from somewhere else), plus come up with cash to pay the bonds it's already issued.


Myth No. 2: Congress doesn't pay into Social Security, so it doesn't care about fixing the crisis. The idea that U.S. lawmakers don't pay into Social Security is 25 years out of date. Before 1984, U.S. representatives and senators -- like all other federal employees -- weren't covered by Social Security and didn't pay into the system. Congress passed a law in 1983, which took effect the next year, requiring all of its members (and all federal employees hired after that year) to participate in the system.
This myth is often accompanied by the assertion that Congress participates in a private pension scheme that pays them their salaries for the rest of their lives. In fact, the Civil Service Retirement System, which covered federal employees in earlier decades, was closed to new participants after 1983. The pensions available under this old system depend on the federal worker's pay and tenure with the government, but by law can't exceed 80% of the final year's pay. Benefits paid under the system are reduced by the amount of Social Security the participant receives.
The reason Congress hasn't fixed the Social Security crisis is politics. The most likely solutions -- raising taxes, cutting benefits, establishing private accounts or some combination of the three -- all face strong opposition. In addition, the people currently receiving benefits are represented by one of the strongest, most politically connected lobbies in existence: AARP. The 20-something workers who likely will pay the cost for congressional inaction don't have nearly the same clout

Life expectancy and disappearing assets
Myth No. 3: Age 65 was picked as the retirement age because, when Social Security was started in the 1930s, most people were dead by then. The average life expectancy for a baby girl born in 1935 was about 63 years. For a baby boy, it was about 59 years. But those statistics reflect the higher infant and child mortality rates of the times. If you survived childhood, you had a good shot of living beyond retirement age. Men who lived to age 30 in 1935 could expect to last another 37 years. Women at 30 had a 40-year average life expectancy.
If you actually reached retirement age, your prospects for a relatively long retirement were good. Men who were 65 in 1935 could expect to live another 12 years, while women faced an average 13 more years. (Today, men of the same age can expect to live another 17 years, and women 20 years.)
In fact, about half of the 30 state pension plans that existed in 1935, and many of the private pension plans, used 65 as a retirement age. Most of the others used age 70. Social Security's creators thought 65 was the more reasonable age and believed the system could be self-sustaining if they chose that age.
Myth No. 4: Social Security will run out of money in 2041. Social Security will still be receiving payroll taxes from workers in 2041. What may have disappeared by then are the assets in the Social Security trust fund.
Even that isn't cast in stone, however. The Congressional Budget Office in June 2006 projected that the trust fund wouldn't dry up until five years later, in 2046. The CBO used different assumptions than those used by the Social Security Administration, projecting faster growth in worker earnings, higher interest rates and lower inflation.
Here's how the Social Security Administration projects the timeline:
In 2017, Social Security will begin paying out more than it takes in. For the first time, it will have to use the interest being paid on the securities it holds in order to meet its obligations.
In 2027, Social Security would have to start redeeming the securities themselves.
By 2041, Social Security would have cashed in the last security, and the system would have enough revenue to pay out only 75% of promised benefits. That percentage would drop over time if Congress failed to act.

Demographics and add-ons
Myth No. 5: Social Security wouldn't be having problems if foreigners weren't able to claim Social Security benefits. The number of checks sent overseas in 2002 totaled 404,640 -- a tiny fraction of the 53 million or so checks Social Security issues annually. Many of those folks may well be Americans who retired abroad. Social Security doesn't break down the overseas checks by citizenship.
In any case, foreign workers who live in the United States have to work and pay taxes into the system for at least 10 years to qualify for Social Security benefits, just as U.S. citizens do.
What will really hurt Social Security are two factors: demographics and the scope of Americans who are covered.
In 1950, there were 16 workers for every person receiving Social Security benefits. By 2015, there will be only three workers for each beneficiary. Fifteen years after that, the ratio will be down to 2.2 to 1.
Even that demographic shift wouldn't be such a disaster if Social Security hadn't expanded far beyond its original mandate of providing retirement benefits for workers. About 30% of Social Security's total benefits are paid to retirees' dependents and survivors and to disabled workers.
Here's a summary of the add-ons over the years:
In 1939, five years after Social Security began, Congress added payments for the families of workers who died, and for retirees' dependents (such as stay-at-home spouses).
In 1956, Congress added disability benefits for workers.
In 1965, Congress established Medicare to pay health-care costs for seniors.
In 1974, Supplemental Security Income or SSI was established as a welfare program for low-income seniors and people with disabilities.
Of these add-ons, however, only the first two -- disability benefits and payments to dependents, widows, orphans -- actually affect Social Security's bottom line.
SSI benefits are paid out of the federal government's general revenues. Medicare is paid for with its own tax and has its own trust fund.
Like Medicare, the disability insurance program also has its own tax and its own trust fund. But the disability fund's results are combined with that of the retirement system when Social Security insolvency projections are made, Goss said.

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If the disabled, the dependent and the survivors were booted out of the system, Social Security could pay for itself --assuming tax levels remained the same.
"The system would be more than adequately funded," Goss said, "if only retirees were receiving benefits."
That's not a solution Goss -- or anyone else who really thinks about it -- could endorse. Even if it were morally viable, kicking out all the widows, orphans, disabled and stay-at-home spouses is politically untenable.
So we're back to choosing from the same controversial list of options: cutting benefits, raising taxes, privatizing some or all of the system. What we choose, though, should be based on the realities of the system -- not the myths.


Soul Crusher

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2011, 12:45:13 PM »
The Fraud at the Heart of Social Security
Of Two Minds ^ | 1/17/2011 | Charles Hugh Smith


________________________ ________________________ ___-



To understand the fraud at the heart of the Social Security Trust Fund, we start with a very simple fact: cash can only be spent once. There are two frauds at the very heart of the Social Security system, and I am going to describe and source them in detail. After spending a number of hours poring over public data from the Social Security Administration (SSA), The U.S. Treasury and the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), and additional hours searching the Web for other published analyses, I can state with some authority that there are no published analyses or accounts of Social Security which incorporate the actual outlays and receipts from fiscal year 2010 in a context which includes the Social Security Trust Fund.

In other words, all published analyses are based either on SSA or CBO estimates, not the actual numbers from the Treasury, and all media reports I could find are simply cut-and-paste repetitions of these estimates.

I cannot find a single source which provided any evidence of digging through the data and assembling a coherent picture of the Social Security system.

The media simply repeats "conclusions" published by "official sources" based on estimates, not facts. The laziness this implies is staggering. Meanwhile, pundits such as Paul Krugman and Robert Reich, however knowledgeable and talented they may be, have obviously never performed a single minute of original data collection and analysis of the voluminous public accounts available to anyone with a computer and web browser.

If this is the best our most prestigious pundits and media resources can manage, then we truly are in dire straits.

All claims that Social Security is "secure for decades" are based on bogus fantasy-estimates, as are claims that the Trust Fund is anything but a carefully contrived fraud. I am rather shocked--and I don't shock that easily--that it comes down to me, the classic independent-journalist "blogger in old blue jeans" to actually assemble the data and draw the simple common-sense conclusions which reveal Social Security as a fraud with two components: the bogus estimates, and the bogus Trust Fund.

Here are the primary source documents for all data presented here:

A SUMMARY OF THE 2010 ANNUAL REPORTS (Social Security Administration)

CBO'S 2010 LONG-TERM PROJECTIONS FOR SOCIAL SECURITY (Congressional Budget Office)

Federal Outlays by Function, fiscal 2010 (U.S. Treasury)

Receipts by Source, fiscal 2010 (U.S. Treasury)

Let's start with the CBO report, which begins with an excellent summary of the Social Security system:

Social Security is the federal government's largest single program. About 54 million people currently receive Social Security benefits. About 69 percent are retired workers, their spouses, and children and another 12 percent are survivors of deceased workers; all of those beneficiaries receive payments through Old-Age and Survivors Insurance (OASI). The other 19 percent are disabled workers or their spouses and children; they receive Disability Insurance (DI) benefits. Social Security's outlays in fiscal year 2010 totaled $706 billion, one-fifth of the federal budget; OASI payments accounted for 82 percent of those outlays and DI payments made up about 18 percent. Here are the exact numbers from the SSA:

FACT SHEET ON THE OLD-AGE, SURVIVORS, AND DISABILITY INSURANCE PROGRAM 53,398,000 beneficiaries

For context, the Census Bureau estimates the population of the U.S. is 312 million. So about 17% of the population draws a check from Social Security.

As anyone who has ever drawn a paycheck in the above-ground economy knows, Social Security is funded by payroll taxes. Surpluses, if any, are placed in the Social Security Trust Fund, a useful accounting fiction which is comprised of two trust funds, one for each component of Social Security: Old-Age and Survivors Insurance (OASI) and Disability Insurance (DI).

The trust funds run surpluses in that the amount paid in by current workers is more than the amount paid out to current beneficiaries. These surpluses are invested in special U.S. government securities, which are deposited into the trust funds. If the trust funds begin running deficits, meaning more in benefits are paid out than contributions paid in, the Social Security Administration is empowered to redeem the securities and use those funds to cover the deficit. What this description fails to explain is the Social Security surplus is transferred to the Treasury to be spent, and in exchange for the cash the Treasury deposits special "non-marketable securities" in the Trust Fund: in essence, IOUs, not actual Treasury bonds.

This "debt" to Social Security is called "intragovernmental holdings," and it is included in the total national debt, as shown here in these Treasury documents:

total Federal debt

chart of Federal debt

Here is the exact total of Trust Fund holdings via the SSA: Trust Fund Data. As of December 2010, the Trust Fund held $2.6 trillion in various non-marketable securities.

For context, note that total household net wealth in the U.S. is $54.9 trillion, according to the latest Fed Flow of Funds (see page B100)

To understand the fraud at the heart of the Trust Fund, we start with a very simple fact: cash can only be spent once. As a thought experiment, let's assume the Social Security was an actual Trust Fund rather than a simulacrum fund. The actual Trust Fund would be larger version a PIMCO bond fund.

In other words, the Trust Fund would accumulate $1 trillion in cash surpluses and invest it in bonds--just like the PIMCO bond funds. Note the word cash. Employees and employers pay their Social Security taxes in cash, out of their cash earnings and receipts. The surpluses are also cash.

The Trust Fund would then buy bonds of various maturities and types with that cash. For the sake of our thought experiment, suppose the Trust Fund were free to invest its cash in securities from major central banks, including the U.S. Treasury.

The Trust Fund would hold marketable securities which could be liquidated at will in the vast global bond market. Recall that global financial wealth is on the order of $160 trillion (estimates are just that), with U.S. households holding about a third of that ($55 trillion). So the total Social Security Trust Fund of $2.6 trillion is not all that large on a global scale.

When Social Security outlays exceeded receipts (as they did in 2010--see below), then the Fund would sell bonds for cash. Note the word cash. The U.S. Treasury and U.S. taxpayers would have nothing to do with the Fund beyond paying in their payroll taxes in cash.

Now compare that real Trust Fund with the simulacrum one we have. In the bogus "Trust Fund," the cash has been siphoned off and spent on Federal government outlays. The Fund holds no cash. Instead, it has been given IOUs "backed by the full faith and credit of the United States," the non-marketable securities.

Now what happens when the Social Security system redeems $100 billion of those securities? the Treasury goes out and borrows the $100 billion on the global bond market, and taxpayers are on the hook for the debt and the interest on that freshly issued debt.

This isn't that difficult to understand, so let's go through it again:

In the real Trust Fund, taxpayers pay in their cash, and the surplus cash is invested in marketable bonds. That cash is then withdrawn later, as needed, via the sale of bonds purchased with the cash. Taxpayers (employees and employers) pay nothing above and beyond their payroll taxes to fund Social Security.

In the fraudulent "Trust Fund," taxpayers' Social Security taxes have been squandered on other Federal expenses, and they have to pay interest on Treasury debt which is borrowed to pay their SSA benefits. In other words, taxpayers pay twice: once via Social Security taxes, a substantial 12.4% of all wages, and then they pay again to borrow cash on the bond market to actually pay the Social Security benefits.

You can only spend cash once, and filling the drained coffers with borrowed money that accrues interest is making the taxpayers pay for their Social Security benefits twice over. In effect, the $2.6 trillion in "Trust Fund" bonds are simply markers for actual Treasury bonds which must be sold, and interest must be paid on. Taxpayers will have to pony up hundreds of billions of dollars to pay the interest on that $2.6 trillion in newly issued Treasury bonds.

Here's another thought experiment. In the fraudulent "Trust Fund" we now have, when the Social Security system outlays exceed its tax-receipts income, then the Treasury sells freshly minted bonds and transfers the cash to Social Security.

If we eliminated the fiction of the Trust Fund, then what happens? The exact same thing: when the Social Security system outlays exceed its tax-receipts income, then the Treasury sells freshly minted bonds and transfers the cash to Social Security.

Since nothing is different if the simulacrum Trust Fund exists or not, then clearly it is an accounting fraud. The bottom line is the cash was spent on non-Social Security programs, and the taxpayer is thus paying for his/her Social Security benefits twice over: once in cash payroll taxes, and again to pay the interest on the Treasury debt issued to replace the Social Security surplus cash that was spent.

The second half of the fraud is the bogus estimates which proclaim a false security that is simply not backed up by facts. I'm going to run through the numbers drawn from the SSA and the Treasury; you can verify them on the links listed at the start of this essay.

Here is the "official version" as stated in the report from the Social Security trustees in August 2010:

Social Security expenditures are expected to exceed tax receipts this year for the first time since 1983. The projected deficit of $41 billion this year (excluding interest income) is attributable to the recession and to an expected $25 billion downward adjustment to 2010 income that corrects for excess payroll tax revenue credited to the trust funds in earlier years. This deficit is expected to shrink substantially for 2011 and to return to small surpluses for years 2012-2014 due to the improving economy. After 2014 deficits are expected to grow rapidly as the baby boom generation’s retirement causes the number of beneficiaries to grow substantially more rapidly than the number of covered workers. The annual deficits will be made up by redeeming trust fund assets in amounts less than interest earnings through 2024, and then by redeeming trust fund assets until reserves are exhausted in 2037. Here are Trustees' estimates for when the system's outlays exceed its income:

First year outgo exceeds income excluding interest: 2015 First year outgo exceeds income including interest: 2025 Year trust funds are exhausted: 2037 Now here are the real numbers for fiscal year 2010, alongside the SSA's estimates.

From Federal Outlays by Function:

Social Security outlays were $706.7 billion for fiscal 2010. That represents an increase of 3.5 percent or $23.8 billion over fiscal 2009 outlays.

From ESTIMATED OPERATIONS OF TRUST FUNDS: Social Security estimate of 2010 expenditures:

$586 billion OASI 2010 $128 billion DI 2010 $714 billion total

Difference: $7 billion less than estimate

From Social Security Receipts 2010: $631.7 billion

$539,996,807,141.47 receipts OASI $91,691,109,662.47 receipts DI OASI Actual 2010: $540 billion OASI 2010 Estimate of SSA: $686 billion

DI Actual 2010: $91.6 billion DI 2010 Estimate of SSA: $105 billion

Actual receipts as per Treasury: $631.7 billion

Difference between outlays and receipts: $707 billion - $ 631 billion = $76 billion shortfall for 2010

The Treasury figures are for tax receipts, while the SSA figures include $100 billion in interest from the Treasury (for the non-marketable bonds) for the OASI fund and $10 billion in interest on the holdings of the DI fund. So we add $110 billion to the Treasury's tax receipts for a total of $741 billion:

Total receipts estimated by SSA in 2010: $791 billion

Tax receipts ($631B) plus interest income ($110B) in 2010: $741 billion

Difference: - $50 billion

So the SSA Trustees had estimated $41 billion deficit (excluding interest income) and reality turned out to be $76 billion--almost double their guesstimate. Their estimate of total revenues was too rich by $50 billion as well.

If the SSA blows the estimate for the fiscal year ending in October this badly in August of the same year, what faith can we plausibly place in their estimates of what will happen in 2025 and 2037? The SSA numbers published in the August 2010 report estimated that outlays would not exceed revenues (excluding interest income) until 2015--yet outlays already exceeded income by a staggering $76 billion in 2010.

Their estimates for "First year outgo exceeds income including interest" being 2025 are suspect, too, once you examine their insanely rosy expectations of future revenues. Recall that their revenue estimate for 2010 overshot reality by $50 billion.

SSA's estimate for 2011 income is $855 billion--fully $114 billion more than the actual income logged in 2010. But wait, it gets worse: According to the SSA, the system's income for 2009 was $807 billion ($698.2 billion in the OASI and $109.3 billion in the DI). Real income was $741 billion. That means SSA income registered a massive decline of $66 billion from 2009 to 2010.

So the reality is that tax receipts fell by over $60 billion from 2009 to 2010, and they fell short of SSA estimates by $50 billion. The gap between actual tax receipts and outlays in 2010 was a monumental $76 billion.

Since the SSA's estimate for outlays was quite accurate ($714 billion estimated, $707 billion in reality), then we can take their estimate for 2011 outlays as solid: $742 billion.

Notice that is almost exactly the $741 billion revenue and interest income logged in 2010. the slightest dip in revenues and the slightest increase in outlays would mean that outlays would exceed total income in 2011, not 2025 as estimated by the SSA Trustees.

The consequences of these numbers are gargantuan. Outlays are increasing 3.5% a year or more, while receipts plummeted by 8% from 2009 to 2010, supposedly a "recovery" year in which the economy grew by over 2% per annum.

Relying on these pie-in-the-sky estimates to judge the system "secure and solvent until 2037" is a massive fraud. I invite you to study all the data presented above, and pore over the source documents at length. You will be forced to conclude the following:

1. The estimates are so far off from reality, even those looking a mere one year ahead, that they are useless if not outright dangerous/fraudulent.

2. The Social Security system's outlays are rising far faster than previous estimates and the economy as a whole as Baby Boomers retire at 62 rather than hang around to 66 to collect their full benefits.

3. The Social Security system's income is cratering, with no evidence to support the notion that the "recovering" economy is generating higher SSA receipts. Indeed, the data is conclusive: SSA income fell by a massive $66 billion decline in just one year, 2009 to 2010.

4. The Trust Fund is an accounting fiction, as its disappearance would make no change in the reality that the Treasury has to borrow money on the global bond market to fund Social Security's growing shortfalls between receipts and outlays.

The bogus Trust Fund and absurdly optimistic estimates constitute two fundamental frauds at the heart of the Social Security system. Forget the delusional propaganda estimates and look at the actual Treasury data for outlays and receipts. The system is not "secure;" it ran a $76 billion deficit in 2010, and it is on track to run a deficit in 2011 that it was not supposed to reach until 2025.

Wake up, America, and look at the data, not fantasies.


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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2011, 01:13:18 PM »
Good graph.  S.S. was a huge mistake by the govt. and is a complete sham. 

Imagine paying in your whole fucking life, dying at 62 y/o and your family gets nothing? 

And you guys wonder why I hate the govt so much?

is this true ?

I know a man who's wife died in her 40's (he still works and makes good money) and both her kids receive monthly income from her social security.

I don't see anything on the SS website that supports your statement

however, you are the lawyer and I am not so I assume you musst have some proof of your claim


Soul Crusher

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2011, 01:34:51 PM »
is this true ?

I know a man who's wife died in her 40's (he still works and makes good money) and both her kids receive monthly income from her social security.

I don't see anything on the SS website that supports your statement

however, you are the lawyer and I am not so I assume you musst have some proof of your claim



I think it depends on whether it i SSI or just regular SS.   

Straw Man

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2011, 01:49:43 PM »
I think it depends on whether it i SSI or just regular SS.   
So you don't know if it's true or not

But you believe it

And you've decided to be angry about

Straw Man

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2011, 05:11:55 PM »
Good graph.  S.S. was a huge mistake by the govt. and is a complete sham. 

Imagine paying in your whole fucking life, dying at 62 y/o and your family gets nothing? 

And you guys wonder why I hate the govt so much?

have you figured out yet if the thing that so fills you with hate is even true ?

225for70

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Re: Approximating Social Security's Rate of Return
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2011, 05:35:34 PM »
have you figured out yet if the thing that so fills you with hate is even true ?

I will wait for 33367 to find the answer...