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Subproject 54, MKULTRA, which involved
examination of techniques to cause brain concussions and amnesia by
using weapons or sound waves to strike individuals without giving and
without leaving any clear physical marks. Someone dubbed it "perfect
concussion" -- maybe that was poetic license on the part of our staff rather
than your poets over there. I wonder if you could just tell us what brain
concussion experiments were about?

Admiral TURNER.
This project, No. 54, was canceled, and never carried

Well, I do believe the first year of the project in
1955 was carried out by the Office of Naval Research, according to the
information that you supplied us. The CIA seems to have been
participating in some way at that point, because the records go on to say
that the experimenter at ONR found out about CIA's role, discovered that
it was a cover, and then the project was transferred to MKULTRA in
1956. Again, this is all from the backup material you have given us. So, it
was canceled at some time. I am not disagreeing


with that, but apparently for at least a year or two, somebody was
investigating the production of brain concussions with special blackjacks,
sound waves, and other methods as detailed in the backup material.

Senator KENNEDY.
Just talking about the two safe houses on the east
and west, coast as being the sources for the unwitting trials, now, the
importance of this and the magnitude of it, I think, is of significance,
because we have seen from your records that these we're used over a
period of 8 or 9 years, and the numbers could have been considerable. You
are unable to determine, at least, in your own research, what the numbers
would be, and what the drugs were, how many people were involved, but
it could have been considerable during this period of time.

It would certainly appear to me in examining the documents and the flow
charts of cash slips that were expended in these areas that it was
considerable, but that is a judgmental factor on it, but I think it is
important to try and find out what the Agency is attempting to do to get to
the bottom of it.

Now, the principal agent that was involved as I understand it is deceased
and has been deceased for 2 years. The overall agent, Mr. Gottlieb, has
indicated a fuzzy memory about this whole area. He has testified before
the Intelligence Committee. Yet he was responsible for the whole
program. Then, the Director had indicated the destruction of the various
materials and unfamiliarity with the project.

Senator KENNEDY.
Is it plausible that the director of the program would
not understand or know about the details of the program? Is it plausible
that Dr. Gottlieb would not understand the full range of activities in those
particular safe houses?


Admiral TURNER.
Let me say it is unlikely. I don't know Mr. Gottlieb.

Senator KENNEDY.
Has anybody in the Agency talked with Mr.
Gottlieb to find out about this?

Admiral TURNER.
Not since this revelation has come out.

Senator KENNEDY.
Not since this revelation? Well, why not?

Admiral TURNER.
He has left our employ, Senator.

Senator KENNEDY.
Does that mean that anybody who leaves is, you
know, covered for lifetime?

Admiral TURNER.
No, sir.

Senator KENNEDY.
Why wouldn't you talk with him and find out? You
have new information about this program. It has been a matter of
considerable interest both to our committee and to the Intelligence
Committee. Why wouldn't you talk to Mr. Gottlieb?

Admiral TURNER.
Well, again, I think the issue is whether this should
be done by the Justice Department or ourselves.

Senator KENNEDY.
Well, are we wrestling around because you and
Attorney General Bell can't agree--

Admiral TURNER.
No, sir.

Senator KENNEDY [continuing].
On who ought to do it?

Admiral TURNER.
We are proceeding together in complete agreement
as to how to go. I have, in connection with trying to find all of these
Americans or others who were unwittingly tested, I have some
considerable concern about the CIA running around this country
interviewing and interrogating people, because I don't want to give any
impression that we are doing domestic intelligence.

Senator KENNEDY.
I am just talking about one, in this case. That was
the man who was responsible for the whole program, and to find out
whether anyone within the Agency since you have had this new material
has talked to Gottlieb since 1975, and if the answer is no, I want to know
why not.

Admiral TURNER.
The reason he was not interviewed in connection
with the 1975 hearings was that he had left the employ of the CIA and
there was a concern on the part of the Agency that it would appear to the
investigators that the CIA was in some way trying to influence him and
influence his testimony before the committee. If these committees have,
no objection, we would be happy to contact Dr. Gottlieb and see if he can
augment anything here in this new information, though I don't think there
is much in this new information that be can add to as opposed to what was
available in 1975.

Senator KENNEDY.
Well, you see, Admiral Turner, you come to the
two committees this morning and indicate that now at last we have the
information. We don't have to be concerned about anything in the future
on it. Now, I don't know how you can give those assurances to the
members of these committees as well as to the American people when you
haven't since 1975 even talked to the principal person that was in charge
of the program, and the records were destroyed. He is the fellow that was
running the program, and the Agency has not talked to him since the
development of this new material.

Admiral TURNER.
Our only concern here is the proprieties involved,
and we will dig into this and work with the Justice Department on


who, if either of us, should get into discussions with Dr. Gottlieb so as not
to prejudice any legal rights that may be involved here, or to appear in any
way to be improper.

Senator KENNEDY.
Well, do I understand you have not contacted the
Justice Department about this particular case since the development of this
new material about Gottlieb?

Admiral TURNER.
Not about Gottlieb specifically. We have contacted

Senator KENNEDY.
Well, it is amazing to me. I mean, can you
understand the difficulty that any of us might have in terms of
comprehending that when you develop a whole new series of materials
that are on the front page of every newspaper in the country and are on
every television, I mean, that means something, but it does not mean
nearly as much as the interest that we have in the fact about the testing of
unwitting Americans, and every single document that the staff reviews has
Mr. Gottlieb's name on it and you come to tell us that we don't have to
worry any more, we have these other final facts, and Mr. Gottlieb has not
been talked to?

Admiral TURNER.
Sir, I am not saying that these are in any way the
final facts. I am saying these are all the facts we have available.

Senator KENNEDY.
And you have not talked to the person who was in
charge of the program, so what kind of value or what kind of weight can
we give it?

Mushroomman deserves a ban


--- Quote from: DroppingPlates on October 23, 2014, 02:54:36 AM ---Mushroomman deserves a ban

--- End quote ---


He needs to find somewhere to fuck off to, quickly.


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