Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: nodeal on May 08, 2011, 11:42:42 PM
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Honestly. I don't understand how people don't go to failure during their sets. And let me be clear: when I say failure, I mean repping out a certain weight until not another rep can be performed with that weight.
Whether I'm going for the big lifts in the gym or I'm just plopping down to the floor of my living room to bust out a set of push-ups, I can't help but go to failure. My body doesn't know how to do anything else. Even when I just want a pump and tell myself I'm only gonna do a few pushups to get the blood flowing, I always end up going on and on with the reps until I can't do em anymore.
It just seems god damn unnatural to NOT go to failure. The satisfaction just isn't there when I'm through, and that endorphin-driven euphoria is completely lacking if I don't push my sets to the end.
I see people who prefer lower intensity and higher volume and I just don't fucking get it. To them, I say eat shit!
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I think the fear of being crushed from weights stops some people.
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Training is the only pastime where failure is a good thing.
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and i bet you look the exact same as you did a year ago
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and i bet you look the exact same as you did a year ago
Who me?
You`ll see new pics after July when I`m done competing in the NPC Masters Nats.
My goal is to always make some kind of improvement and I think I`ve made quite a bit of progress.
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I like getting bigger and stronger.
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Honestly. I don't understand how people don't go to failure during their sets. And let me be clear: when I say failure, I mean repping out a certain weight until not another rep can be performed with that weight.
Whether I'm going for the big lifts in the gym or I'm just plopping down to the floor of my living room to bust out a set of push-ups, I can't help but go to failure. My body doesn't know how to do anything else. Even when I just want a pump and tell myself I'm only gonna do a few pushups to get the blood flowing, I always end up going on and on with the reps until I can't do em anymore.
It just seems god damn unnatural to NOT go to failure. The satisfaction just isn't there when I'm through, and that endorphin-driven euphoria is completely lacking if I don't push my sets to the end.
I see people who prefer lower intensity and higher volume and I just don't fucking get it. To them, I say eat shit!
You can accomplish more in your workouts if you don't take it to the max every set. It's not an invitation for laziness either, the weights get progressively heavier. Sometimes near the end failure is reached.
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Who me?
You`ll see new pics after July when I`m done competing in the NPC Masters Nats.
My goal is to always make some kind of improvement and I think I`ve made quite a bit of progress.
no not you
i already know you look the same as last year oldman, probably worse
;D
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my last sets are generally to failure or just before...
I dont think I could add weight from set to set if I went to failure on every one.
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my last sets are generally to failure or just before...
I dont think I could add weight from set to set if I went to failure on every one.
add weight? why do you increase the weight as you progress through your working sets?
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and i bet you look the exact same as you did a year ago
progression in both size and strength is a constant
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add weight? why do you increase the weight as you progress through your working sets?
ahhh so youre a gimmick then...
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my last sets are generally to failure or just before...
I dont think I could add weight from set to set if I went to failure on every one.
and for me thats the problem with volume type training.... whats the point of all those non failure sets, you could save time and effort just hammering it home with one or 2 sets of said exersize
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my last sets are generally to failure or just before...
I dont think I could add weight from set to set if I went to failure on every one.
Same here.
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and for me thats the problem with volume type training.... whats the point of all those non failure sets, you could save time and effort just hammering it home with one or 2 sets of said exersize
I think i can exhaust my muscle more over 3 or 4 sets with one or two to failure rather than simply one or two sets...
now if i did one or two sets coupled with a bunch of drop sets sure but just going to failure on one or two sets I would feel like I got enough in.
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but in fact all your doing is holding your self back until the end of your sets and going all out on the last one...
like warming up to a certain weight, then warming up another 3 times till you get to the main set...
i know alot of people like to train this way but i just find it pointless
i can understand if your pyramiding up in weight each time, but to do the same weight over n over?
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It's a good way to go if you are only trying to maintain certain body parts, coz then you can focus much more energy and effort on the parts that you are really trying to improve.
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but in fact all your doing is holding your self back until the end of your sets and going all out on the last one...
like warming up to a certain weight, then warming up another 3 times till you get to the main set...
i know alot of people like to train this way but i just find it pointless
i can understand if your pyramiding up in weight each time, but to do the same weight over n over?
working out causes muscle growth
the more you stimulate the more you grow- but not if the stimulation iis unable to produce adaption because your body has to attend to structural damage on existing tissues.
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but in fact all your doing is holding your self back until the end of your sets and going all out on the last one...
like warming up to a certain weight, then warming up another 3 times till you get to the main set...
i know alot of people like to train this way but i just find it pointless
i can understand if your pyramiding up in weight each time, but to do the same weight over n over?
I do pyramid up the weight for each set...I dont do the same weight each set...
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i only pyramid up during my warm up. Once I begin my working sets, the weight I use for a given exercise decreases as my muscles tire during my workout.
Just curious... how many sets do you guys do for, say, chest? I only do 3 warm up sets and then 9 working sets -- 3 sets of an inclince press, 3 sets of a flat press, and 3 sets of dumbbell flies. All to failure.
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i only pyramid up during my warm up. Once I begin my working sets, the weight I use for a given exercise decreases as my muscles tire during my workout.
Just curious... how many sets do you guys do for, say, chest? I only do 3 warm up sets and then 9 working sets -- 3 sets of an inclince press, 3 sets of a flat press, and 3 sets of dumbbell flies. All to failure.
HOLY SHIT! 9 working sets til failure? You're "chemically enhanced" yes?
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Bill pearl used to say "always leave the gym with some Gas in the Tank"
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i only pyramid up during my warm up. Once I begin my working sets, the weight I use for a given exercise decreases as my muscles tire during my workout.
Just curious... how many sets do you guys do for, say, chest? I only do 3 warm up sets and then 9 working sets -- 3 sets of an inclince press, 3 sets of a flat press, and 3 sets of dumbbell flies. All to failure.
ok take chest
inc b/b 3 warm ups, 2 main sets
flat d/b 1 warm up, 2 main sets
low inc fly 1warm up, 1 main set................done
if i do drop sets or forced reps its only ever on 2nd set
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Different degrees of failure. Momentary, positive, negative and a few versions in the grey area. Absolute failure: when the weight overcome the muscles ability to move in a positive (raising) direction or resist in a negative (lowering) direction. Even holding a weight in a static position can be near impossible after taxing a muscle to it's limits.
I can say, from witnessing and good personal sources, that most of the truly successful large and powerful men will stop 1 or 2 reps away from any form of failure. Less can be more in this regard. The CNS and it's ability to recover from a present workout and be geared for the next workout , is key to size & strength. The prime word being "Recovery". These guy's understand all of this and apply it to their workouts. Even guy's, floating in a sea of 'roids or whatever else, tend to back off of going the failure route.
Only exception might be a 1 or 2 set max, in a higher rep range (like breathing squats, DL's, squat cleans, etc) or a program like Mike Mentzer's. Including the positive and negative phase in the same exercise/workout. All these really attacks the CNS, but for a shorter duration with the 1 or 2 sets max.
All this is a personal choice. If people want to do failure every workout, than fine,. But you may be short changing yourself in the long run, if progressive gains, from workout to workout, are the goals. If feeling a sense of adventure, try stopping 1 or 2 reps before your usual point of failure, and see how the body reacts after 2 weeks or so. Good Luck.
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I pyramid up in weight each set while decreasing reps until I get to my heaviest set for whatever reps I`m shooting for,then I drop some weight and go to failure again with a tough weight for the last set.
I don`t hit failure on every set,just 2 or 3 out of say 5 or so.
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most of the truly successful large and powerful men will stop 1 or 2 reps away from any form of failure. Less can be more in this regard. The CNS and it's ability to recover from a present workout and be geared for the next workout , is key to size & strength. The prime word being "Recovery". These guy's understand all of this and apply it to their workouts. Even guy's, floating in a sea of 'roids or whatever else, tend to back off of going the failure route.
this should be stickied.
Bill pearl used to say "always leave the gym with some Gas in the Tank"
great advice for a multitude of reasons.
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:o Darn I too was going to failure every set while more wieght each set. I think I've learned alot from this thread. Thanks.
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i cant think of any bodybuilder off the top of my head who train this way..... any?
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All this is a personal choice. If people want to do failure every workout, than fine,. But you may be short changing yourself in the long run, if progressive gains, from workout to workout, are the goals. If feeling a sense of adventure, try stopping 1 or 2 reps before your usual point of failure, and see how the body reacts after 2 weeks or so. Good Luck.
So I gave this a shot for both my back workout and my shoulder workout. It felt totally unsatisfactory. I completely felt like I was robbing myself of a good workout. Stopping short of failure felt totally, utterly unnatural. I had to tag 3-4 extra sets onto the end of my workout just so I could leave the gym feeling like I accomplished something worthwhile; and even with these extra sets, it still did not compare to the incredible feeling I achieve from going to failure. I feel like stopping short of failure is inefficient as far as time spent in the gym and in terms of having a good workout.
Failure is THE WAY to go. I wish it wasn't, because these past test workouts where I went 1-2 reps short of failure was a hell of a lot easier than anything I'm used to. But it's safe to say this way of working out lacks intensity. I always said the two most important things when working out are form and failure. I stick to that even more so than before now that I tried higher volume/less intensity.
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I always said the two most important things when working out are form and failure.
True dat! But the MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR is..... PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD 8) Without this, you won't create bigger muscles, it is ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY in the quest for larger muscles FACT
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Lou Ferrigno....Bill Pearl.....Samir......Zan e.....Arnie.....Padilla. ...are some champs that trained a rep or so short of failure. Doesn't mean they trained with less intensity......just means they didn't go to positive failure.
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absolutely agree with the progressive overload statement, doesn't matter if, you want to get bigger, faster, stronger, progressive overload is the most important thing hands down. And when it comes to progressive overload I think/expirienced my self/expirienced with others, the failure method with low volume works best. But it does have some rules that you cannot bring over from volume training. This is just what I have personally noticed:
1 you have to lower volume (obviously)
2 training sessions need to be shorter (ties in with volume)
3 don't fuck with the rest periods and rush before your failure sets 3-5 min
4 even if youre doing 1 set to failure do at least one warm up set to get accustomed to the movement pattern your about to do
5 you will plateau movements a lot quicker with this approach but you will also see quicker strength gains in a given period of time. So you have to cycle your movements, for example squats cycled with front squats etc.. This is where working out at a home gym can possibly hurt you as far as limiting the exercise options.
6 it is absolutely not for newbies, you gotta have some expirience in knowing your body and be able to fully exert yourself on your failure sets. A newbie who benches 135 for 8 till failure rests, and then gets 135 for 8 again, was not able to go to failure on that first set.
7 stick to 1-2 sets to failure per exercise no more.
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absolutely agree with the progressive overload statement, doesn't matter if, you want to get bigger, faster, stronger, progressive overload is the most important thing hands down. And when it comes to progressive overload I think/expirienced my self/expirienced with others, the failure method with low volume works best. But it does have some rules that you cannot bring over from volume training. This is just what I have personally noticed:
1 you have to lower volume (obviously)
2 training sessions need to be shorter (ties in with volume)
3 don't fuck with the rest periods and rush before your failure sets 3-5 min
4 even if youre doing 1 set to failure do at least one warm up set to get accustomed to the movement pattern your about to do
5 you will plateau movements a lot quicker with this approach but you will also see quicker strength gains in a given period of time. So you have to cycle your movements, for example squats cycled with front squats etc.. This is where working out at a home gym can possibly hurt you as far as limiting the exercise options.
6 it is absolutely not for newbies, you gotta have some expirience in knowing your body and be able to fully exert yourself on your failure sets. A newbie who benches 135 for 8 till failure rests, and then gets 135 for 8 again, was not able to go to failure on that first set.
7 stick to 1-2 sets to failure per exercise no more.
Spot fucking on post man ;D I completely agree with all of your points, except I would say to do at least 3 or 4 warm-up sets before your working sets. Also, I would limit total work set volume to not more than 6 work sets til failure per workout. PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD IS KING
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Et
Spot fucking on post man ;D I completely agree with all of your points, except I would say to do at least 3 or 4 warm-up sets before your working sets. Also, I would limit total work set volume to not more than 6 work sets til failure per workout. PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD IS KING
Absolutely, especially first movement, as many as you need, and afterward at least one warm up for every consequent exercise. My workouts are generally 4-6 worksets to failure which is right on line with your 6 set recommendation.
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you can go the way of low volume high intensity training and do a coouple sets to failure. alot of guys get great results from that. personally i get alot more out of stay awaying from failure. and alot of people i know too. as long as you know that its unlikely youl be able to grow if you train both failure and high volume once your developed then your good. there is a balance. sometimes you have to back off. most of the time you dont want to push it. better to focus on good form, tight squeezing, time under tension, and hit a variety of rep ranges. go low reps. moderate reps. high reps. always 1 or 2 reps shy of failure. more volume= better. just dont exaust yourself.
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So I gave this a shot for both my back workout and my shoulder workout. It felt totally unsatisfactory. I completely felt like I was robbing myself of a good workout. Stopping short of failure felt totally, utterly unnatural. I had to tag 3-4 extra sets onto the end of my workout just so I could leave the gym feeling like I accomplished something worthwhile; and even with these extra sets, it still did not compare to the incredible feeling I achieve from going to failure. I feel like stopping short of failure is inefficient as far as time spent in the gym and in terms of having a good workout.
Failure is THE WAY to go. I wish it wasn't, because these past test workouts where I went 1-2 reps short of failure was a hell of a lot easier than anything I'm used to. But it's safe to say this way of working out lacks intensity. I always said the two most important things when working out are form and failure. I stick to that even more so than before now that I tried higher volume/less intensity.
no
you didnt train correctly
lift heavy
and if its easy then keep doing it over and over.
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True dat! But the MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR is..... PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD 8) Without this, you won't create bigger muscles, it is ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY in the quest for larger muscles FACT
Without a doubt. Constantly challenging your body and pushing the threshold is what it's all about
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Lou Ferrigno....Bill Pearl.....Samir......Zan e.....Arnie.....Padilla. ...are some champs that trained a rep or so short of failure. Doesn't mean they trained with less intensity......just means they didn't go to positive failure.
The person who goes to positive failure trains with more intensity than the person who doesn't. Plain and simple. I'm not saying you can't have a good workout keeping 1-2 reps away from failure, I'm just say you're robbing yourself of the full experience.
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no
you didnt train correctly
lift heavy
and if its easy then keep doing it over and over.
I did lift heavy, I just didn't lift heavy to positive failure -- and it fucking sucked.
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I did lift heavy, I just didn't lift heavy to positive failure -- and it fucking sucked.
you didnt lift heavy enough or you didnt do it enough times.
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If you use the same weights for your training weights then the mucles will stay the same size FACT
But if you use heavier and heavier weights for your training weights then your muscles will get bigger and bigger FACT
P.S. It's ain't so easy to be able to handle greater and greater training loads (coz the body wants to remain within it's own state of homo-statis) but this training with greater and greater loads IS THE HOLY GRAIL OF BUILDING BIGGER MUSCLES
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Perhaps dj181 is confusing fact from fiction, or perhaps his version of limited facts. Using heavier and heavier weight each workout does not always equate to becoming larger. Not unless enough time is allowed for recovery and one does not go to failure.
Many trainee's, including myself, have had outstanding results using systems like GVT (German Volume Training) when rapid muscle and strength gains were the goal. GVT (10X10's) is using the SAME WEIGHT for all sets. And that weigh is much lighter than used in any regular workout. Other similar methods like Gironda's 8X8 for example have been used for great results. Gironda also used the 10X10's method. You do try adding weight, each workout, but still want the full 10 reps done for all 10 sets.
Only one compound exercise is used per body part for that workout day. The whole idea behind GVT is to reach the goal of 100 reps for that body part. The 100 reps are broken down into 10 individual sets of 10 reps, with between 60 to 90 seconds rest between sets. After all, the total tonnage, gauged by reps preformed in any workout ,is the most important.
As the story goes, Olympic lifters wanted a less stressful workout on their joints/tendons/ligaments during off season. Adapting the 10X10's (with almost baby weights to them) some of the lifters advanced to a higher weight class and improved strength greatly over a short period. Gaining pure muscle weight in the process. Good Luck.
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I see your point jpm101, but the whole reason that ANY training method works is because said method has allowed one to train with greater and great training loads (Progressive Overload). If one does GVT or Girondas 8X8 or any other method and doesn't increase their training loads over time, then their muscles will not get bigger.
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Sorry my friend but that is totally incorrect. You will have to experience these different protocols for yourself to fully understand the benefits gained. I am a fan of progressive overload for many years. My prime workouts are within a Power rack. Including partial/pin spaced heavier workouts. But there are other method offering exceptional results. And not all involve extreme loads. Having one mind set in training can be very limiting and can even cheat one's self of greater potential for size and strength. Good Luck.
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I have been training for many years. This is my take on things. I have been heavily influenced by Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer. I have trained for to many years to count to failure for low sets. I wish I would have used some volume during that time. I think all new trainers should always train to failure.
The problem with failure is that it leads to burn out then there is a need to take off from training. If you have 5 years under your belt how much stronger can you get? Intensity demands adding weight, reps or decreasing the length of time it took to complete your workout.
It seems HIT to failure guys follow the same pattern. They start training 3 days a week with say 12 exercises to failure of 1 or 2 work sets. They burn out and reach a strength plateau. Then they believe their strength have over run their recovery so they go down to twice a week. This works for awhile then complete staleness and a need to take a break due to exhaustion. After a break they read they should go down to one workout every 5 to 6 days. This works for awhile. Then they feel again they can't recover from 12 exercises and they go down to 6 then 4. Soon they are working out once a week for 20 minutes and declare the reached their genetic limit. Bull shit.
I believe in training to failure for limited periods like Yates does. You can't train like that all the time. Imagine if a track coach said every training day you are running a mile to exhaustion trying to beat your time? You would improve quickly at first but just as quickly you will start to burn out and your times would go down hill.
I believe the majority of your training should be to modified failure. This is when you do volume with the last set approaching failure. So if you are doing 5 sets of ten reps for barbell curls it might look like this. First set you do 10 reps but you know you could get more. Set two and three is the same. You are working hard but not to the ragged edge. Set 4 you get 10 but would'nt have gotten 12. Set 5 you reach failure at 8. When you can get 5 x 10 reps with that weight you can increase. Also the rests between sets are quick. You're pacing yourself. With 2 x 10 hit type approach you take as much time as you need between sets so you can attack that second set. With the volume approach you are trying to limit the rest between sets.
Does any athlete from Olympic lifter, Power lifter or even distance runner go to failure every training day? Why do we think that's the way a bodybuilder should train?
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I believe the majority of your training should be to modified failure. This is when you do volume with the last set approaching failure. So if you are doing 5 sets of ten reps for barbell curls it might look like this. First set you do 10 reps but you know you could get more. Set two and three is the same. You are working hard but not to the ragged edge. Set 4 you get 10 but would'nt have gotten 12. Set 5 you reach failure at 8. When you can get 5 x 10 reps with that weight you can increase. Also the rests between sets are quick. You're pacing yourself.
This right here is nearly spot fucking on! The only thing that I would disagree with is that the rest btw work sets should be at least 3 or 4 min. I was trained by this fella here (JM Blakely), and that was his bread and butter training protocol. Except he advised 4 sets of 6 reps, and then once the 4th set could be completed with 6 or more reps increase the weight next workout.
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Progressive overload can come in many different forms.
Adding weight while keeping reps constant
Adding reps while keeping weight constant
Increasing ROM with same weight ( when doing partials work)
Increasing TUT with the same weight
Shortening rest periods when doing multiple sets with same weight
Those are just some of the ones that come to mind off the top of my head.
Also bodybuilding/powerbuilding are not the same as powerlifting and OLY weightlifting. Bodybuilding/powerbuilding requires that you get stronger in a much wider variety of movements in order to allow for more complete development. And I speak from my own and expirience of others that I have helped out and trained with, the most sure fire way to guarntee that you will grow is by adding weight to the bar. I have yet to see anyone that took their bench from 225 for 6 to 315 for 6 and not get bigger. Powerlifting and OLY lifting have specific competition lifts that require constant practice. So most of the traditional programs keep those lifts in year round, and yes if you are keeping a lift year round you should not go to failure most of the time because you will burn out. Whats funny though, if you actually look at the Westside template they have the max effort days for upper and lower body where they cycle the training movements every 1-3 workouts to prevent burn out and keep from stalling out a particular movement.
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the most sure fire way to guarntee that you will grow is by adding weight to the bar. I have yet to see anyone that took their bench from 225 for 6 to 315 for 6 and not get bigger.
EXACTLY! And this is the whole point that I'm trying to make, the only problem is that it it much, much easier said than done :'( :'( :'(
Blakely's training style is quite similar to Max-OT, and in my experience, this style of training gave me the best and fastest results. I tried Gironda's 8X8 and GVT, and both training styles left me smaller and weaker, as both of these styles of training forced me to reduce my training poundages, thus leading to smaller and weaker muscles. But this was only my experience with theses 2 styles of training, so I can't speak for others.
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Progressive overload and going to failure need not be linked for results, in either size or strength. If the body is given a proper training stimuli, and a fair recovery period, nature pretty much takes it's course. Being that the CNS (the key to all) will meet that stimuli and adapt, and progress (muscle/strength) to meet the newer stress factors. Of course, training hard does not mean going to complete failure in most training sessions. That will attack the CNS badly.
Glad to see that dj181 has experimented with 8X8's & 10X10's. Most people who attempt these styles will lose a bit the first week or so. Than the body kicks in, producing results at a fairly fast rate. Or some drop out the first few workouts because of the physical, as well as the mental, efforts involved. Sorry that dj181 did not experience any favorable benefit from such training. Nothing works for everyone.
I've given high school/college football players, who needed to gain 10 to 20lbs off season, GVT and for the most part gains of pure muscle mass and strength was achieved (usually between 6 to 10 weeks..the first week or so is a breaking in period, which trying any new systems require). Than they went back to regular football training workouts. The GVT workouts might include cleans, squats, jerk presses, benches, Hi-pulls,etc. Most effective one exercise per body part was the squat clean, a true mass builder. Some times including the jerk overhead. Good Luck.
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Im confused..
From next week Im going to try NOT going to failure.
How many weeks until you "feel" a difference?
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Im confused..
From next week Im going to try NOT going to failure.
How many weeks until you "feel" a difference?
I'm curious mon amie, how do you normally train? Do you follow any particular training protocol? In my opinion, Max-OT is nearly spot on ;)
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I have been training for many years. This is my take on things. I have been heavily influenced by Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer. I have trained for to many years to count to failure for low sets. I wish I would have used some volume during that time. I think all new trainers should always train to failure.
The problem with failure is that it leads to burn out then there is a need to take off from training. If you have 5 years under your belt how much stronger can you get? Intensity demands adding weight, reps or decreasing the length of time it took to complete your workout.
It seems HIT to failure guys follow the same pattern. They start training 3 days a week with say 12 exercises to failure of 1 or 2 work sets. They burn out and reach a strength plateau. Then they believe their strength have over run their recovery so they go down to twice a week. This works for awhile then complete staleness and a need to take a break due to exhaustion. After a break they read they should go down to one workout every 5 to 6 days. This works for awhile. Then they feel again they can't recover from 12 exercises and they go down to 6 then 4. Soon they are working out once a week for 20 minutes and declare the reached their genetic limit. Bull shit.
I believe in training to failure for limited periods like Yates does. You can't train like that all the time. Imagine if a track coach said every training day you are running a mile to exhaustion trying to beat your time? You would improve quickly at first but just as quickly you will start to burn out and your times would go down hill.
I believe the majority of your training should be to modified failure. This is when you do volume with the last set approaching failure. So if you are doing 5 sets of ten reps for barbell curls it might look like this. First set you do 10 reps but you know you could get more. Set two and three is the same. You are working hard but not to the ragged edge. Set 4 you get 10 but would'nt have gotten 12. Set 5 you reach failure at 8. When you can get 5 x 10 reps with that weight you can increase. Also the rests between sets are quick. You're pacing yourself. With 2 x 10 hit type approach you take as much time as you need between sets so you can attack that second set. With the volume approach you are trying to limit the rest between sets.
Does any athlete from Olympic lifter, Power lifter or even distance runner go to failure every training day? Why do we think that's the way a bodybuilder should train?
We have a winner!!
Good post .
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I'm curious mon amie, how do you normally train? Do you follow any particular training protocol? In my opinion, Max-OT is nearly spot on ;)
:)
I dont have any standar training protocol..I just train. lol
I would say that I do volume..close to 20 sets for bigger bparts. Going to failure almost in every last set of each exercise I do, I dont know
if its a good or bad thing though, thats why im interested in trying NOT to go to failure..
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i still cant get my head around not going to failure, its like fucking your lass then not cumming......
can one of you post up a non failure routine, with warm ups and weights used? not a full weeks worth just a sample chest or leg etc
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People are over thinking going to total failure way too much. A non failure routine, warmups, weight used?......you got to be kidding. And some even confusing it's use with the progressive overload protocol. No wonder people train year in, year out without making any noticeable gains in size or strength.
Wishing the best of luck to the dazed and confused who can't seem to understand a simple basic element in training. Again, Good Luck.
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And some even confusing it's use with the progressive overload protocol.
Can you please explain what you mean here with this statement? I'm not hating on ya here, I'm just curious as to what you mean exactly. ALL sound training programs are based upon the concept of progressive overload, even GVT training applies this principle.
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not going to failure is totaly alien, i dont know anyone at all who trains this way, not a single person
they have all got bigger over the years too strangely enough!, im talking brit champs, brit pros, normal gym rats etc etc
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Allright, I have a confession to make, I did try GVT but I didn't really give it a fair run, since I chucked it after only a few weeks into it. I'm thinking about just trying it on one bodypart (namely back) with dumbell rows. The concept behind it is to perform 10 sets of 10 reps with 60 to 90 sec rest btw sets, and to increase the training load once 10 sets of 10 reps have been completed with the same weight. Actually this could be an interesting experiment since I'll try and stick with GVT on back, while using Blakely's 4*6 on arms and delts...
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How about training by feel? ???
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With all due respect to jpm101.
I have been training to failure since I started eight years ago.
Bodyweight went from 133 to 195-200 at 5'9"
Bench went from 135-315
Squat went from 135 to 335 for four (last saturday's workout, all the way down OLY style full squat)
Deadlift went from 225 to 435 for four
Overhead press from 85 to 195
pull ups went from bw for 15 to bw for 23-25 despite being more than 60 pounds heavier ( rarely do bw pullups nowadays, usually add at least one 45lb plate)
And all of this progress was done using only a brutal stack of whey protein and creatine as well as lots of regular food.
Not saying that not going to failure doesnt work, but for me and others that I have known and trained with, going to failure with lower volume has produced the most gains.
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Great progress Yev33. But maybe you could have had all those gains (and perhaps more) in 4 years or less. Just a thought, not applying anything negative or that I know better than anyone else. I guess we never know until we all try different methods when working out, what our true potential might be. Good Luck.
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everything works at first. i lost ~100 lbs of fat and put on ~40 lbs of muscle during a one and a half year period when i first started training. failure and beyond on every set. im talking HIGH intensity training. 7 days a week, even when on holiday, birthday, sickday, whatever. kept training that way up untill last year, tho i started taking more rest days. the only time i gained any muscle during the next 4 years of training was when i started using steroids, and after a few months gains platued again and even on steroids i didnt gain any noticeable muscle after that poiint. last year i changed up my training and now i am gaining a two or three pounds each and every month, and using lower doses too.
jpm, i kno why u kept this info to yourself all these years now. ;D
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How about training by feel? ???
thats what you do. make sure the muscle always feels good. dont hurt it. make love to it. squeeze it, flex it, pump it, lift heavy shit... but dont let it get achy or burning, dont go till it hurts, stay away from failure, and rest ALOT in between sets. take it easy but work hard.
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I really can't believe that some of you advocate NOT striving to achieve positive failure during your sets -- even going as far as to say that better results can be obtained through a lower intensity/higher volume training! Shame, shame.
Please stop spewing such utter nonsense.
Maybe some of you have become cozy in your little routines of 1-2 reps short of the burn, but working through the pain and getting out those last reps are what separates champs from chumps. SHAME.
You don't risk overworking the muscle by going to positive failure! You operate by feel, adjusting rep range, rest time between sets, rest time between workouts, exercises, number of sets, etc, so that your muscles may be worked to their optimum point of exhaustion. No matter what, though, you ALWAYS strive for positive failure on your sets. No other method of bodybuilding is more efficient, more effective, or more SATISFYING than that of the methods which employ high intensity principles and utilize positive failure as the primary goal of any set.
And I employ these high intensity principles to cardio as well! I don't care if I'm sprinting a mile or running for distance, I go till I cannot go any longer! I rode my bike 125 miles from Queens, NYC to Montauk, LI -- would I have made it if I wanted to keep it a few pedals short of failure? Fuck no.
And shit, I employ high intensity principles to my education as well! When I study, I go all out. If I'm going to set aside time to open up a school book, why half ass it and keep it 1-2 chapters short of "failure"? When it comes to achieving ANYTHING, giving it your all is the way to go!
Of course appropriate numbers of sets and adequate rest for worked muscle groups are the key to any successful routine that incorporates failure (or any type of bodybuilding routine for that matter), but to say it's better to NOT go to positive failure? -- ABSURD.
The next time you guys are in the gym doing your barbell curls in the squat rack, please consider banging out those extra couple of reps instead of surrendering and putting the bar down.
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NoDeal: Suggest that you go over to Google Maps and get directions, because your going all over the place with the apples & oranges fuzzy logic.
Perhaps doing a little research into the biochemical and CNS reactions, and counter reactions, to stress and adapting/recovery can open a new route of discovery for you. The shame would be for you not to do this.
As stated before (many times in other threads), I'm not preaching any one method to training. If you wish to do the failure thing and have utter faith in it, than fine and good for you. Spewing, good or bad, may be in the eye of the beholder. In this case, the site reader. Good Luck
Side Bar: The first time I heard the word "shame" was in the first grade at missionary school. Didn't think adults used that word much any more and with such furver.
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::)
keep telling yourself that going to "failure" means you work hard...
heres a hint.... reaching true failure is impossible... so by ur logic you have never worked out hard a day in your life..
pussy
;D
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so what is harder to do,,, force your self to truly finish a set, or stop 3 or so reps short?
could ask a 6yr old child to answer that one!
no ones arguing that there different ways of doing things, but you and jpm are comming over very smug
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I tried not going to failure in my leg workout last saturday, Im sore as hell. Dont know though if its due to that (not going to failure).
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I tried not going to failure in my leg workout last saturday, Im sore as hell. Dont know though if its due to that (not going to failure).
Did you do any new exercises during this workout? If oui, then it's most likely because of the new exercise. FYI, soreness IS NOT an indication that growth stimulation has occured, same thing goes for "the pump"
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Ok, I've decided to try and show what PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD can do, so here are my current bicep pics and my arm is measuring in at 14.75 inches or 37.5 cm, and I am a lifetime natural trainer. So therorectically, if I can progressively overload my arms with greater and greater training weights, they will get bigger and bigger, and that's exactly what this little mini experiment of mine will attempt to show.
Here are my current arm lifts:
1. DB Overhead Tricep Extensions: 65 pounds for 8, 7, and 6 reps for 3 work sets
2. DB Concentration Curls: 40 pounds for 7, 6, and 5 reps for 3 work sets
P.S. Sorry for the upside down photos, but the camera on my phone is fucked up, and I haven't got it fixed yet
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Did you do any new exercises during this workout? If oui, then it's most likely because of the new exercise. FYI, soreness IS NOT an indication that growth stimulation has occured, same thing goes for "the pump"
No...same thing I always do...just 1-2 reps away from "failure".. 8)
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Hint to dj181: Drop the DB arm work and try close grip BP's or dips, with the elbows close to the sides in each exercise. BB cheat curls (just enough to get the bar moving upwards) for the biceps, a mass builder. Stay away from the extension movements for awhile, if wanting increased impressive size. But if you still insist on going to failure than please forget any of these offered suggestions.
Don't know how many years of training you have, or your height or weight, but I would judge that most guy's who come on this site have at lease a 16" cold arm after a year or so of serious training. Or should have. So considering you are more of a project under construction , I can only offer these suggestions in good faith. I truly do wish you good luck in your goals.
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Hint to dj181: Drop the DB arm work and try close grip BP's or dips, with the elbows close to the sides in each exercise. BB cheat curls (just enough to get the bar moving upwards) for the biceps, a mass builder. Stay away from the extension movements for awhile, if wanting increased impressive size. But if you still insist on going to failure than please forget any of these offered suggestions.
Don't know how many years of training you have, or your height or weight, but I would judge that most guy's who come on this site have at lease a 16" cold arm after a year or so of serious training. Or should have. So considering you are more of a project under construction , I can only offer these suggestions in good faith. I truly do wish you good luck in your goals.
Thanks for the input man, but my current training goals are rather unusual to say the least... I'm basically just trying to "spot gain" on my Arms and Delts, and particularly my bis, as they are by far the worst of the three (delts, tris, bis). So the dips and close-grips don't really allow me to follow my plan, as they involve the pecs too much. Here is a Tri and Delt shot that was taken on the same day. Once again sorry for the upside down pic.
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And for my bis, a friend of mine suggested that I try a pre-exhust cycle of DB Supination curls supersetted with DB rows, so I think that I'm gonna give that bi routine a run. Basically performing 2 cycles of it per bi training session.
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so what is harder to do,,, force your self to truly finish a set, or stop 3 or so reps short?
could ask a 6yr old child to answer that one!
no ones arguing that there different ways of doing things, but you and jpm are comming over very smug
is the point of training to "work hard" or to stimulate growth?
going to failure only damages the muscle. you dont want to do that. you just want to work the muscle.
I tried not going to failure in my leg workout last saturday, Im sore as hell. Dont know though if its due to that (not going to failure).
:) ... now that your staying away from failure you should be able to do a hell of a lot more sets in your workouts.
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we can argue this forever,,, i dont agree with you and never will on this
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going to failure only damages the muscle. you dont want to do that. you just want to work the muscle.
Positive failure = damaged muscles? LULZ.
Is that how you justify your chumpish workout techniques?
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Positive failure = damaged muscles? LULZ.
Is that how you justify your chumpish workout techniques?
;D
have fun being skinny
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dj181, if you want your bi's to grow you have to work your brachiallis as well as bicep. Stuff like hammer curls, pinwheel curls, reverse barbell curls. Biceps are a small muscle, look at pic of even Ronnie in a FDB, his arms are huge but the actual bicep portion is not that big, and that's a guy with the biggest oil free arms of anyone that stepped on a stage.
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dj181, if you want your bi's to grow you have to work your brachiallis as well as bicep. Stuff like hammer curls, pinwheel curls, reverse barbell curls. Biceps are a small muscle, look at pic of even Ronnie in a FDB, his arms are huge but the actual bicep portion is not that big, and that's a guy with the biggest oil free arms of anyone that stepped on a stage.
Thanks man :) Yeah I've been thinking about adding hammer curls, I know that chin-ups can work well also, but they aren't a good choice for me, since I'm attempting to "spot gain" on Arms and Delts and chin-ups activate the lats too much, just like close-grip benches and dips activate the pecs too much.
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hammers are great to finish off your biceps, totaly smoke your forearms at same time....
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Would suggest the reverse BB curl, alternating between a false grip at times. Great brachiallis influence, plus the forearms themselves. Reverse BB curls are a very overlooked exercise when arm size is concerned. I would place it on par, or even above, hammer curls for bicep/forearm size. Good Luck.
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Quick update: my arms and delts have already gotten bigger and thicker, but that was to be expected as I just recently upped my cals back to a normal level from their previous level of being quite low. I was eating roughly 1200 cals per day, and now I'm up to around 2000 to 2500 or so. I'll post update pics with a week or so.
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Just measured my arms, and they are up a half inch, from 14.75 inches to 15.25 inches. I'll post update pics on or before June 15th.
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Here are the 4 week update pics.
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Here are the 4 week update pics.
Noticable improvements there. keep it up.. 8)
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Noticable improvements there. keep it up.. 8)
Thanks ma man ;D
And here's some numbers as far as weight improvement:
1. DB Supination Curl: Start at 45*8 and on my latest workout I did 55*6
2. DB Overhead Tricep Extension: Start at 65*8 and on my last workout I did 75*5
The curls increased more than the tricep extensions coz I increased 10 pounds per bell per hand on the curls and 10 pounds with a single bell on the tricep extensions.
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Here are the 4 week update pics.
Good increase in a short time.
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Do all you people who train to failure every single time have a training partner? Or do you ask any Joe Blow for a spot in the gym? I'm wondering how it is you can mentally adjust to just anyone spotting you on certain exercises without it effecting the mind muscle connection on that very last rep? If that last rep is as important as some of you are saying, then certainly the spot you have and the amount of pressure someone gives you is going to be valuable. Ass to grass squats with some 140 pound kid standing behind you because the gym was dead that day seems like it could be a mind fuck when you take it to absolute failure. When in fact you may not take it to absolute failure because of the spotter behind you who you don't trust???
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Good increase in a short time.
Thanks man :) At the moment my arms are 15 and 3/8 inches, so they are only up bout an 1/8 of an inch, but the thing is I'm leaner now, and the long vein along my bicep is clearly visable when I'm standing relaxed with my arms at my sides ;D
I actually went to Gironda's 8*8 for awhile with the curls and extensions, but I got better results doing the heavy single set, so now I'm going back to it. I'll try and post some update pics soon, probably by the end of the month, and hopefully my arms will be up to over 15 and a half inches by then.
Yeah fellas, I know that a 15 and a half inch to 16 inch arm doesn't sound all that impressive, but when one is sitting at 6-7% bodyfat then it ain't so bad.
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The argument against going to failure is that if you do it or atleast if you do it too much, it will become a learned pattern for your nervous system and will hurt your gains in the long run. A lot of people may think it is better to err on the side of going a little too heavy on your lifts, but its actually better to err on the side of going a little too light, so you dont fail. Though I understand the temptation of wanting to err on the side of too heavy, and I admit I have done it a lot.
It seems to me the ideal thing is to get as close to failure as possible without actually going to failure, while stretching out the volume of work as much as possible.
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Allright, I went 4 to 5 "work sets" for bis and tris while keeping the training at "sub-failure" levels (basically 1 or 2 reps short of failure) and it didn't work as well. So therefore I've found that 4 or 5 sub-failure work sets, and Gironda's 8*8 didn't work for me, but what did work for me was/is 2 heavy cycles til failure, so I'm getting right back on that 8)
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I will go to failure for maybe two weeks than back off light for three or maybe an immediate 5-7 rest days. After return to close to or near what I was doing before. I use going to failure as an occasional measuring stick. It on occasion helps you know where you stand and if you're headed in the right direction.
But I agree going to failure too much can be detrimental.
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Just did my 1st heavy bi cycle and my previous PR was a 55 pound bell for 6 reps, today I only got 4 reps with the 50 pound bell, so that's not good :( I could see in the mirror that my bis had lost some thickness and fullness, and this training session today just confirmed my fears/suspicions...
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Just did my arm workout after 48 hours btw arm sessions, and I went up 2 reps on my curls, from 7 reps to 9 reps, and I went up 4 reps on my overhead tri ext, from 6 reps to 10 reps ;D
I get carried away and usually train every single day, in fact I had recently trained 8 days in a row, but I actually took yesterday off, and I was rewarded with an increase in reps on both exercises 8)
I'll try and train every other day, and see what happens...
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Just did my arm workout after 48 hours btw arm sessions, and I went up 2 reps on my curls, from 7 reps to 9 reps, and I went up 4 reps on my overhead tri ext, from 6 reps to 10 reps ;D
I get carried away and usually train every single day, in fact I had recently trained 8 days in a row, but I actually took yesterday off, and I was rewarded with an increase in reps on both exercises 8)
I'll try and train every other day, and see what happens...
Another update...
Curls went up 2 reps, from 6 reps to 8 reps.
Tri ext went up 3 reps, from 7 reps to 10 reps.
All after 48 hrs btw sessions ;D
I still haven't equaled my Curl PR which was 23kg for 6 reps, as I just did 23kg for 5 reps today.
But I did suprass my Tri Ext PR which was 33kg for 6 reps, as I did 35kg for 8 reps today.
I'll post arm updat pics soon....
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::)......jeez it never ends.
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Hahhahahahaahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOOK WHO'S SPREADING HIS LIES AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're arms are almost 16 inches at 7% bodyfat ? YOU LYING FUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!
post a picture mutherfukker, and you better not be lying or i am going to skin you alive all over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you just can't help yourself, can you ...you little fucking lying shitstain ?? I'm going to own you and rip you a new asshole twice a bad as before.
how was the "vacation" you penniless guy ?? a little hint, cleaning elephant shit in a traveling circus isn't a vacation....you skinny, big nosed, bald ,EVERYONE WISHES YOU WERE DEAD, weak, stupid, unfunny, poor little asshead
lol
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dj181: I can understand you enthusiasm, but someone is going to have to break it to you. You may want to go to the Training Log board, rather than here, for all your workout news and hourly updates. That's why the Training Board is available. Getting rather tedious, to be blunt. And the main thread here now is "failure", not dj181's excellent gains & struggles.
When you can do cheating BB curls for at least 135 for 8 reps and dips with a 100lbs added for another 8 reps, only than let us all know (on the Training Board). Plus adding 20lbs to 25lbs of muscular body weight to your frame. The guns should be around the 17 1/2, at least, by then. And when taking pic's of your guns, try doing it in natural sun light. Get a more true and honest indication of quality of muscle that way. Again, no malice or offense intended. Take all this as friendly suggestions.
Good Luck.
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dj181: I can understand you enthusiasm, but someone is going to have to break it to you. You may want to go to the Training Log board, rather than here, for all your workout news and hourly updates. That's why the Training Board is available. Getting rather tedious, to be blunt. And the main thread here now is "failure", not dj181's excellent gains & struggles.
When you can do cheating BB curls for at least 135 for 8 reps and dips with a 100lbs added for another 8 reps, only than let us all know (on the Training Board). Plus adding 20lbs to 25lbs of muscular body weight to your frame. The guns should be around the 17 1/2, at least, by then. And when taking pic's of your guns, try doing it in natural sun light. Get a more true and honest indication of quality of muscle that way. Again, no malice or offense intended. Take all this as friendly suggestions.
Good Luck.
He had a thread on the training board but got crushed for spewing the same bullshit.
......he try's every stupid theory ever invented instead of the truth....gaining muscle takes time and hard work.
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Hahhahahahaahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOOK WHO'S SPREADING HIS LIES AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're arms are almost 16 inches at 7% bodyfat ? YOU LYING FUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!
post a picture mutherfukker, and you better not be lying or i am going to skin you alive all over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you just can't help yourself, can you ...you little fucking lying shitstain ?? I'm going to own you and rip you a new asshole twice a bad as before.
how was the "vacation" you penniless guy ?? a little hint, cleaning elephant shit in a traveling circus isn't a vacation....you skinny, big nosed, bald ,EVERYONE WISHES YOU WERE DEAD, weak, stupid, unfunny, poor little asshead
So beautiful it brought tears to my eyes :'(
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So beautiful it brought tears to my eyes :'(
YES yes.....it just flew onto the page.... :'(
This is for the guy DJ181......LEAVE NOW....if you don't I will hound you non-stop....every time you ever make a lost....I will be there to sidetrack you and derail your threads....every single time...and I will own You brutally every time as well....you will be a festering puddle of feces when I am done.....I hate You ...I would gladly kill you in real life and piss in your mouth as you were drawing your last breath
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YES yes.....it just flew onto the page.... :'(
This is for the guy DJ181......LEAVE NOW....if you don't I will hound you non-stop....every time you ever make a lost....I will be there to sidetrack you and derail your threads....every single time...and I will own You brutally every time as well....you will be a festering puddle of feces when I am done.....I hate You ...I would gladly kill you in real life and piss in your mouth as you were drawing your last breath
Epic roid rage... ;D
8)
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Epic roid rage... ;D
8)
Hahahaaaaa ;D
I hate people who think they are "cute" and try to be slick
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Hahahaaaaa ;D
I hate people who think they are "cute" and try to be slick
back to topic,, your a big dude too, do you train to failure or back off, where do u stand on it?
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back to topic,, your a big dude too, do you train to failure or back off, where do u stand on it?
very rarely go to failure..I believe in high reps and not quite full range of motion, it takes a while to find your "sweet spot" as far as how you should perform your repetitions to get the most out of them....the goal being for the muscle to be fully contracting for the majority of the time under tension....that's how you GROW.
I am an advanced bodybuilder and therefore this cannot be disputed ;D
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very rarely go to failure..I believe in high reps and not quite full range of motion, it takes a while to find your "sweet spot" as far as how you should perform your repetitions to get the most out of them....the goal being for the muscle to be fully contracting for the majority of the time under tension....that's how you GROW.
I am an advanced bodybuilder and therefore this cannot be disputed ;D
hopefully you can be more vocal about your training methods.. ive been shouting from the rooftops to get guys on here to back away from failure..
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it is scentificaly proven that non faliure training results in the greatest strength gains. Muscle mass is a bird of a different feather. I think it proably wise to avoid faliure on heavy compound free weight movements such as ,bench,squat,deads,rows and so forth on machine and single joint exercises it dont matter as much because they are much easier on the cns. Its common since gain strength with the three power lifts and use that strength you built in other movements that are easier on the cns to build mass. Im not the strongest but I bench around 300 for a set of ten if I did 330 to faliure for 8 it would be dangerous. Let alone squating heavy weight to true faliure. IF YOUR WEAK IT PROLLY DONT MATTER AS MUCH AS YOUR NOT ABLE TO STRESS YOUR RECOVERY SYSTEMS AS MUCH
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I train to strict failure meaning I could cheat out a couple more reps but stop right there. Your last rep should be difficult to complete, but should not require an all out effort and cheating. Bodybuilding is all about knowing your personal zone. If you train and quit the set too early, nothing happens. If you go too far, and push beyond, your body shuts down (maybe it's a protective mechanism) you might start shrinking and looking terrible. Find the zone. I call it 85% - 90% training. 0% - 75% won't get you much. 90% - 100% can have you going in reverse gear. In the end, the truth is in the pudding. Either you are gaining and have muscle and energy or don't. All the talk in the world doesn't change that.
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I train to strict failure meaning I could cheat out a couple more reps but stop right there. Your last rep should be difficult to complete, but should not require an all out effort and cheating. Bodybuilding is all about knowing your personal zone. If you train and quit the set too early, nothing happens. If you go too far, and push beyond, your body shuts down (maybe it's a protective mechanism) you might start shrinking and looking terrible. Find the zone. I call it 85% - 90% training. 0% - 75% won't get you much. 90% - 100% can have you going in reverse gear. In the end, the truth is in the pudding. Either you are gaining and have muscle and energy or don't. All the talk in the world doesn't change that.
id say 70-90% is a good range. i think you get good benefits from a set even if you when you stop before "strict failure". although i agree you can push yourself to that point and still make gains.. i wouldnt do it on every set nor every workout as , at least personally, would start to overtrain. i do train quite frequently however and that may make a difference.
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Ok, I've decided to try and show what PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD can do, so here are my current bicep pics and my arm is measuring in at 14.75 inches or 37.5 cm, and I am a lifetime natural trainer. So therorectically, if I can progressively overload my arms with greater and greater training weights, they will get bigger and bigger, and that's exactly what this little mini experiment of mine will attempt to show.
Here are my current arm lifts:
1. DB Overhead Tricep Extensions: 65 pounds for 8, 7, and 6 reps for 3 work sets
2. DB Concentration Curls: 40 pounds for 7, 6, and 5 reps for 3 work sets
P.S. Sorry for the upside down photos, but the camera on my phone is fucked up, and I haven't got it fixed yet
You arms are small. My arms looked like that before I even start training.
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You arms are small. My arms looked like that before I even start training.
Where are your pics "big" guy?
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Where are your pics "big" guy?
Where's yours, little one?