Author Topic: Hiding From the Parents  (Read 5620 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2007, 08:17:55 AM »
That's how it's worked in Canada for the past 30 yrs. Girl can get abortions without parental knowledge/consent

This is silly.

OzmO

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2007, 08:57:36 AM »
This is silly.

i for one think the parents need to know.  I don't think they should have the right to stop her, but they should know. 

It only takes having a teenage daughter to see the wisdom in that.

Dos Equis

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2007, 09:13:09 AM »
i for one think the parents need to know.  I don't think they should have the right to stop her, but they should know. 

It only takes having a teenage daughter to see the wisdom in that.

I disagree.  Parents have the right to make medical decisions on behalf of their kids until they reach the "age of majority." 

OzmO

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2007, 09:50:07 AM »
I disagree.  Parents have the right to make medical decisions on behalf of their kids until they reach the "age of majority." 

You can say having an abortion is a medical decision as a bases for requiring parents permissioin but the real issue is them having the abortion.

So if you are against abortion as being legal then i understand your point.

But i am for abortion being legal but believe abortion is wrong.

Colossus_500

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2007, 11:13:56 AM »
You can say having an abortion is a medical decision as a bases for requiring parents permissioin but the real issue is them having the abortion.

So if you are against abortion as being legal then i understand your point.

But i am for abortion being legal but believe abortion is wrong.
You think it's ok to kill babies (fetuses, whatever you want to call it), yet you think it's wrong?  OzmO, that doesn't make sense.  I know why you argue your point (welfare/quality of life for the child - future possible complications), but when you look at this from a broader perspective, this is what you're saying..."yeah, it's wrong to kill babies, but i still think it should be legal."  Plus, I think you're looking at future of the child who wasn't aborted from a negative mindset.  You're only seeing the possible abusive situations, welfare, etc.  You can't fail to acknowledge the fact that the 48 million children who have been aborted (legally, we don't know how many illegal abortions have taken place) may have very well been the cure for cancer, or the brainchild of great inventions that help our society.  We just wiped all of those possibilities out as well. 

Good things can (and they do!) come from chaotic situaions.

OzmO

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2007, 11:31:08 AM »
You think it's ok to kill babies (fetuses, whatever you want to call it), yet you think it's wrong?  OzmO, that doesn't make sense.  I know why you argue your point (welfare/quality of life for the child - future possible complications), but when you look at this from a broader perspective, this is what you're saying..."yeah, it's wrong to kill babies, but i still think it should be legal."  Plus, I think you're looking at future of the child who wasn't aborted from a negative mindset.  You're only seeing the possible abusive situations, welfare, etc.  You can't fail to acknowledge the fact that the 48 million children who have been aborted (legally, we don't know how many illegal abortions have taken place) may have very well been the cure for cancer, or the brainchild of great inventions that help our society.  We just wiped all of those possibilities out as well. 

Good things can (and they do!) come from chaotic situaions.

C-500,   please let me state for the record so we all understand.  I am against abortion.  I don't believe its morally and ethically good.  I also think it is murder.

But I'm also very practical in this issue. 

Making abortion illegal would cause serious health problems, the deaths of mothers, over-taxing our welfare system, etc... (up to 48 million more mouths to feed, clothes or as some die hard conservatives would just have them rot on the streets as they thump their books in self righteous justification)

We have not progressed enough as a society to have sex responsibly or be responsible for unwanted babies.

In theory making abortion illegal is the right thing to do, but in reality at this present time in our society its the wrong thing to do.


Incidentally the mothers of the aborted babies can take it up with GOD.  And if they are saved it won't matter any way will it?

Deedee

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2007, 11:43:17 AM »
I love the way men argue about abortion... as if the woman doesn't even exist as a human being with an autonomous will, As if she's nothing but a holding vessal. 

Bizarre.

Good thing we have the courts.

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. Forcing a woman, by threat of criminal sanction to carry a foetus to term unless she meets certain criteria unrelated to her own priorities and aspirations, is a profound interference with a woman's body and this a violation of her security of the person."

Dos Equis

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2007, 11:48:39 AM »
You can say having an abortion is a medical decision as a bases for requiring parents permissioin but the real issue is them having the abortion.

So if you are against abortion as being legal then i understand your point.

But i am for abortion being legal but believe abortion is wrong.

I disagree again.   :)  There is no question an abortion is a medical procedure.  The issue is whether the parents should have the right to control all of their kids' medical procedures.  I think the answer is unequivocally "yes." 

Dos Equis

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2007, 11:51:46 AM »
I love the way men argue about abortion... as if the woman doesn't even exist as a human being with an autonomous will, As if she's nothing but a holding vessal. 

Bizarre.

Good thing we have the courts.

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. Forcing a woman, by threat of criminal sanction to carry a foetus to term unless she meets certain criteria unrelated to her own priorities and aspirations, is a profound interference with a woman's body and this a violation of her security of the person."

Not bizarre at all.  It's a two-part issue:  the woman's bodily integrity and the right kill an unborn child.  Both are legitimate issues.  And the baby is only a "fetus" when we're talking about abortion. 

I try to avoid debating this issue, in part because I'm not quite sure what we should do from a legal standpoint and in part because I'm man. 

OzmO

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2007, 11:52:27 AM »
I disagree again.   :)  There is no question an abortion is a medical procedure.  The issue is whether the parents should have the right to control all of their kids' medical procedures.  I think the answer is unequivocally "yes." 

I agree with everything save the abortion procedure.

You're are using the "medical procedure angle"  as a loop hole to control the abortion.

You should just come out an say:  "i believe my daughter doesn't have the right to choose to have an abortion, only i and my wife does."

Dos Equis

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2007, 12:08:30 PM »
I agree with everything save the abortion procedure.

You're are using the "medical procedure angle"  as a loop hole to control the abortion.

You should just come out an say:  "i believe my daughter doesn't have the right to choose to have an abortion, only i and my wife does."

No I'm not.  But I have no problem saying "I believe my daughter doesn't have the right to choose to kill an unborn child.  Only my wife and I have the right to make that decision." 

Replace "kill an unborn child" with "receive any kind of elective surgery, obtain medical prescriptions, be provided aspirin at school (which ironically requires parental consent), and any other medical procedure."

It is actually people who support "abortion on demand" that try and exclude this medical procedure from the parental consent that is required for every other medical procedure.  From my view, the right of parents to make these decisions has nothing to do with whether abortion should be legal or not.     

OzmO

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2007, 12:12:58 PM »
No I'm not.  But I have no problem saying "I believe my daughter doesn't have the right to choose to kill an unborn child.  Only my wife and I have the right to make that decision."     

Same thing as far as i am concern,  abortion is killing an unborn child.

but you are still using "the medical procedure angle" as an excuse to decide the "killing an unborn child."

The main issue is not the aspirin, the main issue is the "killing an unborn child."


Just call it what it is.

Deedee

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2007, 12:17:59 PM »
Not bizarre at all.  It's a two-part issue:  the woman's bodily integrity and the right kill an unborn child.  Both are legitimate issues.  And the baby is only a "fetus" when we're talking about abortion. 

I try to avoid debating this issue, in part because I'm not quite sure what we should do from a legal standpoint and in part because I'm man. 

Fortunately, in most civilized parts of the world, the courts agree that women should not be "forced" under criminal sanction to chance or endure potentially dangerous medical problems because of some romantic notion. It's bodily interference of another human being. Fetus is the correct term and it is referred to as such in matters of record (like the one I quoted), by medical staff when referring to same, etc...

http://www.mic.ki.se/Diseases/C13.html

Colossus_500

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2007, 12:38:52 PM »
I love the way men argue about abortion... as if the woman doesn't even exist as a human being with an autonomous will, As if she's nothing but a holding vessal. 

Bizarre.

Good thing we have the courts.

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. Forcing a woman, by threat of criminal sanction to carry a foetus to term unless she meets certain criteria unrelated to her own priorities and aspirations, is a profound interference with a woman's body and this a violation of her security of the person."
DeeDee, it's actually VERY DISPARAGING to me that a woman has to even think of abortion as an option.  Having been a ghost stakeholder (my sister-in-law had an abortion, and yes, OzmO, she's forgiven just like my sins are forgiven because we are saved), it pains me to see what she has to go through each and every day.  Please don't patronize or belittle us because we are not female, therefore, in your eyes thinking we as men don't have a right to discuss abortion.  In fact, I believe the tragedy to be just as painful for a man who has father a child that gets aborted.  No one, NO ONE, appears to consider his loss as well.  And science definitely backs the notion that men go through a loss as well.  Again, just like anyone who wants to argue for the legality of abortion uses the less than one-half of one percent of the cases where the mother's life is in danger.  Yes, it's her body, but now there's another human being that lies within her.  So, is it about just her now?  Today's society says yes, just as you do.  I'll speak from my own personal experience...The very day that I say my first-born child (let's even call it a fetus if it makes you feel more comfortable), who at a mere 8-weeks, was but a speck and a heart-beat, JUST A SPECK and a HEARTBEAT, I connected with that "fetus", early-stage human, child.  You're going to tell me that the tears that were uncontrollably rolling down my face were not a legitimate connection to this speck?  I think not.  This is the whole reason Plan Parenthood doesn't encourage the mother to have an abortion, because they KNOW FOR A FACT, that once the mother sees the heartbeat, they've lost a customer. 

If I seem sarcastic and perturbed at what I feel is your insensitivity towards men on this matter, I am.  But at the same time, I ask you to consider what I'm saying and not just roll your eyes and write off what I've just shared.

Dos Equis

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2007, 12:46:32 PM »
Same thing as far as i am concern,  abortion is killing an unborn child.

but you are still using "the medical procedure angle" as an excuse to decide the "killing an unborn child."

The main issue is not the aspirin, the main issue is the "killing an unborn child."


Just call it what it is.

I already called it what it is.  It's a medical procedure.  You don't have to agree.  I always call things as I see them.  I got nothing to hide on this issue.  I simply disagree with the parents not having the right to make all medical decisions on behalf of their kids.     

Dos Equis

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2007, 12:47:49 PM »
Fortunately, in most civilized parts of the world, the courts agree that women should not be "forced" under criminal sanction to chance or endure potentially dangerous medical problems because of some romantic notion. It's bodily interference of another human being. Fetus is the correct term and it is referred to as such in matters of record (like the one I quoted), by medical staff when referring to same, etc...

http://www.mic.ki.se/Diseases/C13.html

It's actually two human beings. 

Deedee have you ever heard a pregnant woman refer to her unborn child as a "fetus"?  I haven't.  And I've been around a lot of pregnant women. 

OzmO

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2007, 12:49:41 PM »
I already called it what it is.  It's a medical procedure.  You don't have to agree.  I always call things as I see them.  I got nothing to hide on this issue.  I simply disagree with the parents not having the right to make all medical decisions on behalf of their kids.     


So basically,  you still want to control whether or not your daughter gets an abortion? (an abortion is a medical procedure right?)

Colossus_500

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2007, 12:49:53 PM »
I already called it what it is.  It's a medical procedure.  You don't have to agree.  I always call things as I see them.  I got nothing to hide on this issue.  I simply disagree with the parents not having the right to make all medical decisions on behalf of their kids.     
I agree 100%

Dos Equis

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2007, 12:50:09 PM »
DeeDee, it's actually VERY DISPARAGING to me that a woman has to even think of abortion as an option.  Having been a ghost stakeholder (my sister-in-law had an abortion, and yes, OzmO, she's forgiven just like my sins are forgiven because we are saved), it pains me to see what she has to go through each and every day.  Please don't patronize or belittle us because we are not female, therefore, in your eyes thinking we as men don't have a right to discuss abortion.  In fact, I believe the tragedy to be just as painful for a man who has father a child that gets aborted.  No one, NO ONE, appears to consider his loss as well.  And science definitely backs the notion that men go through a loss as well.  Again, just like anyone who wants to argue for the legality of abortion uses the less than one-half of one percent of the cases where the mother's life is in danger.  Yes, it's her body, but now there's another human being that lies within her.  So, is it about just her now?  Today's society says yes, just as you do.  I'll speak from my own personal experience...The very day that I say my first-born child (let's even call it a fetus if it makes you feel more comfortable), who at a mere 8-weeks, was but a speck and a heart-beat, JUST A SPECK and a HEARTBEAT, I connected with that "fetus", early-stage human, child.  You're going to tell me that the tears that were uncontrollably rolling down my face were not a legitimate connection to this speck?  I think not.  This is the whole reason Plan Parenthood doesn't encourage the mother to have an abortion, because they KNOW FOR A FACT, that once the mother sees the heartbeat, they've lost a customer. 

If I seem sarcastic and perturbed at what I feel is your insensitivity towards men on this matter, I am.  But at the same time, I ask you to consider what I'm saying and not just roll your eyes and write off what I've just shared.

Good comments Colosuss.  I made the same connection with my kids before they were born too.  Talked to them.  Read to them.  I loved them before they were born.  

Camel Jockey

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2007, 12:52:34 PM »
Quote
DeeDee, it's actually VERY DISPARAGING to me that a woman has to even think of abortion as an option.  Having been a ghost stakeholder (my sister-in-law had an abortion, and yes, OzmO, she's forgiven just like my sins are forgiven because we are saved)

Christ, brah, Christ.  ::)

OzmO

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2007, 12:53:17 PM »
DeeDee, it's actually VERY DISPARAGING to me that a woman has to even think of abortion as an option.  Having been a ghost stakeholder (my sister-in-law had an abortion, and yes, OzmO, she's forgiven just like my sins are forgiven because we are saved), it pains me to see what she has to go through each and every day.  Please don't patronize or belittle us because we are not female, therefore, in your eyes thinking we as men don't have a right to discuss abortion.  In fact, I believe the tragedy to be just as painful for a man who has father a child that gets aborted.  No one, NO ONE, appears to consider his loss as well.  And science definitely backs the notion that men go through a loss as well.  Again, just like anyone who wants to argue for the legality of abortion uses the less than one-half of one percent of the cases where the mother's life is in danger.  Yes, it's her body, but now there's another human being that lies within her.  So, is it about just her now?  Today's society says yes, just as you do.  I'll speak from my own personal experience...The very day that I say my first-born child (let's even call it a fetus if it makes you feel more comfortable), who at a mere 8-weeks, was but a speck and a heart-beat, JUST A SPECK and a HEARTBEAT, I connected with that "fetus", early-stage human, child.  You're going to tell me that the tears that were uncontrollably rolling down my face were not a legitimate connection to this speck?  I think not.  This is the whole reason Plan Parenthood doesn't encourage the mother to have an abortion, because they KNOW FOR A FACT, that once the mother sees the heartbeat, they've lost a customer. 

If I seem sarcastic and perturbed at what I feel is your insensitivity towards men on this matter, I am.  But at the same time, I ask you to consider what I'm saying and not just roll your eyes and write off what I've just shared.

I agree with your view on the Man's loss.  If I impregnated a woman and she got an abortion i would be angry and sad.

 

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2007, 12:55:57 PM »
I love the way men argue about abortion... as if the woman doesn't even exist as a human being with an autonomous will, As if she's nothing but a holding vessal. 

Bizarre.

Good thing we have the courts.

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. Forcing a woman, by threat of criminal sanction to carry a foetus to term unless she meets certain criteria unrelated to her own priorities and aspirations, is a profound interference with a woman's body and this a violation of her security of the person."

It would help if the woman would think about those precious priorities and aspirations before she opens her legs and gets knocked up.

Just a thought.


Dos Equis

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2007, 01:12:50 PM »

So basically,  you still want to control whether or not your daughter gets an abortion? (an abortion is a medical procedure right?)

Of course and of course.  You already asked me those questions. 

OzmO

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2007, 01:14:04 PM »
Of course and of course.  You already asked me those questions. 

You could have just answered it then,  but you kept going on and on about the medical procedures.

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Re: Hiding From the Parents
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2007, 01:20:43 PM »
I love the way men argue about abortion... as if the woman doesn't even exist as a human being with an autonomous will, As if she's nothing but a holding vessal. 

Bizarre.

Good thing we have the courts.

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. Forcing a woman, by threat of criminal sanction to carry a foetus to term unless she meets certain criteria unrelated to her own priorities and aspirations, is a profound interference with a woman's body and this a violation of her security of the person."

I love the way women argue about abortion... as if the man has no say so at all and is nothing more than a semen dispenser.  So women should be allowed to have an abortion even if the father of the child opposes it, but if she has it then that man better provide for the financial well being of said child and play an active role in the upbringing?  I have known guys that went to jail for failure to pay child support (which they should), but I have never met a woman who went to jail because she had an abortion.  It looks like the cards are stacked against the men.