What would people say if this happened?

[militarymuscle69]

These are all people who have never served a day in their lives (not a prereq)..read any books..not newspaper articles..books on the day to day combat that takes place over there. Talked to folks who have been over there....any insurgencey is very difficult to defeat....historically its been that way. We are equipt to break stuff..not selectively kick doors. Besides we don't make policy...the idiots in Washington do.

Oh they talk to folks that have been there. From what I can tell, the currently serving military people on here are Me, HH6, Cav and Enigma (sorry if I missed people) 3 out of those 4 people say things aren't as bad as they seem. The on;y one they listen to? The 1 of those 4 that says Bush is a war monger. Unless you tell them what you want to hear, they don't care.

[militarymuscle69]

Better yet, why don't they load them up with you and all of your family and drop you all in the middle of the "sauce"?

Been there, what have you done for this country?

[militarymuscle69]

Why do you use the subjective tense, when the present or even past tense is more appropriate?

You forget the biggest fact....most Americans could care less what people in other countries think. And until someone comes to knock us off the throne, we will always be king of the hill. Like it or not

[militarymuscle69]

did we carpet bomb a city?

has some of strongest allies,  England, Canada, Japan etc....  alienated us?

Canada a strong ally? LOL sure they are friendly but what the hell could they ever do for us?

[240 is Back]

Been there, what have you done for this country?

we pay our taxes.  we follow the law.

you really should stop playing the "i serve my country so i'm better than you" card.  Kinda takes away your hero status and replaces it with self-righteous glory hound.  Like the firefighter who makes fun of the accountant at a party to try to show him up to get laid.  Your position loses all inherent respect when you try to use it as leverage in an argument.  you're at your job, you're paid for it.  you don't "deserve" add'l props, even tho you get plenty.  You've been doing this a lot lately, and it cheapens the honor the military deserves, when you demand/expect it.

[militarymuscle69]

we pay our taxes.  we follow the law.

you really should stop playing the "i serve my country so i'm better than you" card.  Kinda takes away your hero status and replaces it with self-righteous glory hound.  Like the firefighter who makes fun of the accountant at a party to try to show him up to get laid.  Your position loses all inherent respect when you try to use it as leverage in an argument.  you're at your job, you're paid for it.  you don't "deserve" add'l props, even tho you get plenty.  You've been doing this a lot lately, and it cheapens the honor the military deserves, when you demand/expect it.

wait now 240, I don't do what I do for the glory and surely not the money. I only brought it up because he said they should put me on a plane and drop me over there...insinuating I haven;t been there so I shouldn't talk about bombing. I NEVER use my service as a trump card and am FAR from a hero. But I do mention it when arm chair quaterbacks want to bash the war or bring up their freedom of speach(just an example) but do nothing to defend those rights and take people that do for granted or even worse, bash them.

[240 is Back]

wait now 240, I don't do what I do for the glory and surely not the money. I only brought it up because he said they should put me on a plane and drop me over there...insinuating I haven;t been there so I shouldn't talk about bombing. I NEVER use my service as a trump card and am FAR from a hero. But I do mention it when arm chair quaterbacks want to bash the war or bring up their freedom of speach(just an example) but do nothing to defend those rights and take people that do for granted or even worse, bash them.

As a citizen, a voter, a taxpayer, and American, I have the same right as 300 million others to be an armchair QB.

I hate to see it when you sometimes throw it in the face of others that they haven't served.  I think almost every one of us would serve if a foreign aggressor came to our shores.  I'd be in the yard with a rifle like everyone else to kill a chi or Rus aggressor.

But many don't serve because they don't want to lose a limb or crap in a bag for the rest of their life, over an oil aggression war and sunni/shiite referee.  You want to, and that's cool.  But to many, that's not defense, that's offense.

[ieffinhatecardio]

These are all people who have never served a day in their lives (not a prereq)..read any books..not newspaper articles..books on the day to day combat that takes place over there. Talked to folks who have been over there....any insurgencey is very difficult to defeat....historically its been that way. We are equipt to break stuff..not selectively kick doors. Besides we don't make policy...the idiots in Washington do.

Please don't take offense to this because you seem to be the most level headed of the military members that post on this board and for that you get my respect but I saw one of your posts asking Enigma to stop talking about MM69 because "it just gives the Libs more ammunition".

You literally wanted to quash what quite possibly was the truth because it supported a different political view than your own or because it didn't agree with your position. Either way how is that a good thing?

This is why I for one trust very little of what certain people say on here. If someone can't admit a problem or issue with their party or political view how can what that person says be trusted?

[militarymuscle69]

As a citizen, a voter, a taxpayer, and American, I have the same right as 300 million others to be an armchair QB.

I hate to see it when you sometimes throw it in the face of others that they haven't served.  I think almost every one of us would serve if a foreign aggressor came to our shores.  I'd be in the yard with a rifle like everyone else to kill a chi or Rus aggressor.

But many don't serve because they don't want to lose a limb or crap in a bag for the rest of their life, over an oil aggression war and sunni/shiite referee.  You want to, and that's cool.  But to many, that's not defense, that's offense.

tell me this....if the US had never participated in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnem etc.... we would be just as free as we are today?

[240 is Back]

tell me this....if the US had never participated in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnem etc.... we would be just as free as we are today?

Define 'free'.

Would our constitution be changed in any way?  No.

[militarymuscle69]

Define 'free'.

Would our constitution be changed in any way?  No.

are you sure? If we had never established military might, we wouldn't have opened our doors to more attacks? Who knows what might have happened

[headhuntersix]

I see your point cardio....so I will concede on that. Enigma is a combat surgeon..I know how I feel about this war..If I did his job i would feel the same way he does..no doubt about it. He sees it much worse then any of us.

240 has gone over the edge..I'm not sure if he realizes the crap he's saying now. AS for his comment on MM or even me throwing down the I served some I'm better card.......I don't know.....Star Ship troopers is required reading on many military reading lists. The one thing i took away from that book is..U can't be a citizen unless u serve. Take it for what its worth.

[militarymuscle69]

I see your point cardio....so I will concede on that. Enigma is a combat surgeon..I know how I feel about this war..If I did his job i would feel the same way he does..no doubt about it. He sees it much worse then any of us.

240 has gone over the edge..I'm not sure if he realizes the crap he's saying now. AS for his comment on MM or even me throwing down the I served some I'm better card.......I don't know.....Star Ship troopers is required reading on many military reading lists. The one thing i took away from that book is..U can't be a citizen unless u serve. Take it for what its worth.

I would agree HH, I am not "better" than anyone else , but I do feel we have more leverage to talk about freedoms since we are the ones that keep those freedoms in tact.

[headhuntersix]

Before 240 flips....look man look at what we're saying ina social context. Take into account how people will view vets this time around as opposed to Vietnam. There was a more real patriotism during that time and a bigger connection to the military..and folks turned on them pretty harshly. What happens now. There is wayyyyyyyyyyy less patriotism and much more of a divide between those who serve and those who don't. I can get into this with figures but would prefer not to. Less then a percent serve in the Military (roughly) so if we have a 2 million man military..plus family..how many Americans are realy affected by all this...and if folks turn their back on them..even the system..such as in Walter Reed..what will happen.  Your going to get alot of very vocal disgruntled vets.

[ieffinhatecardio]

I see your point cardio....so I will concede on that. Enigma is a combat surgeon..I know how I feel about this war..If I did his job i would feel the same way he does..no doubt about it. He sees it much worse then any of us.

240 has gone over the edge..I'm not sure if he realizes the crap he's saying now. AS for his comment on MM or even me throwing down the I served some I'm better card.......I don't know.....Star Ship troopers is required reading on many military reading lists. The one thing i took away from that book is..U can't be a citizen unless u serve. Take it for what its worth.

Too be honest I do give those of you that have served in this war more respect and or status than I do those of us that haven't served. You guys have seen it and lived it, we haven't. You've paid a far higher price than any of us have and for that you guys deserve a higher level of treatment on these boards. I also don't think any of you guys plays that card to any real degree, and even if you did I for one wouldn't hold it against you.

You are also more level headed than MM69, no offense to him because everyone is different but I for one don't automatically associate what you say with what he says or vise versa. 240 has his views and some of them are good ones (just like all of us) and some of them are meant to push buttons and stimulate debate and others are just way out there. The CT's being the perfect example.

Thanks for the response and thanks for the posts. You add a lot to this board, even if I don't agree with all your views I still like reading your posts. Having posters here that have seen the war and have lived it brings an authenticity that none of the rest of us can bring.

Asskissing off.

[tu_holmes]

I would agree HH, I am not "better" than anyone else , but I do feel we have more leverage to talk about freedoms since we are the ones that keep those freedoms in tact.

I will disagree on some point... Yes, you do fight for our freedoms... but I don't see what's going on right now in the Middle East as a fight for American freedom... so take that for what you will.

I give the utmost respect to those who serve, but those who serve also need to understand that when they come home when it's all said and done, especially in times where many people don't think they should be there in the first place, that they are coming home often because those who did not serve are tired of seeing those who serve risk there lives for a cause that seems "confused".

I have never and will never betray my feeling that the guys on the ground are the most important thing... period. More important than oil, politics, or any groups ideas... The troops are what matters the most.

People who have no respect for people who serve are worthless... No one sacrifices more for this country than a deployed Serviceman or his family.

Just because you serve doesn't not mean you get a free pass though... if you disrespect me, you will get it in kind.

Respect is still a two way street, even if you are a member of the Armed Forces.

[militarymuscle69]

I will disagree on some point... Yes, you do fight for our freedoms... but I don't see what's going on right now in the Middle East as a fight for American freedom... so take that for what you will.

I give the utmost respect to those who serve, but those who serve also need to understand that when they come home when it's all said and done, especially in times where many people don't think they should be there in the first place, that they are coming home often because those who did not serve are tired of seeing those who serve risk there lives for a cause that seems "confused".

I have never and will never betray my feeling that the guys on the ground are the most important thing... period. More important than oil, politics, or any groups ideas... The troops are what matters the most.

People who have no respect for people who serve are worthless... No one sacrifices more for this country than a deployed Serviceman or his family.

Just because you serve doesn't not mean you get a free pass though... if you disrespect me, you will get it in kind.

Respect is still a two way street, even if you are a member of the Armed Forces.

I agree tu_holmes and even though I throw out verbal jabs here I never mean anything personally and would have a beer with you anyday. When I get into a competitve forum (like debating, basketball, softball) I admittedly enjoy talking shit!! I don't think that us fighting in the middle east is our important job. I think the way we defend the country and our freedoms is by putting on the uniform and other countries just knowing we are here. So when I talk about defending freedoms I'm not necessarily talking about the war in Iraq although in my opinion that does help.

[240 is Back]

There was a more real patriotism during that time and a bigger connection to the military..and folks turned on them pretty harshly. What happens now. There is wayyyyyyyyyyy less patriotism and much more of a divide between those who serve and those who don't.

I disagree.

We want you guys out of harms way.  We support you.  Not Bush.  It is possible to support the troops but think the guy running the war is wrong.

And I thought americans were WAY more crude to soldiers during vietnam - spitting on them, etc.  You NEVER see that with this war.  We love the troops, they're celebrities.  We just see the reasons behind the war, and the poor mgmt, are terrirble.

[OzmO]

I disagree.

We want you guys out of harms way.  We support you.  Not Bush.  It is possible to support the troops but think the guy running the war is wrong.

And I thought americans were WAY more crude to soldiers during vietnam - spitting on them, etc.  You NEVER see that with this war.  We love the troops, they're celebrities.  We just see the reasons behind the war, and the poor mgmt, are terrirble.

There's is defiantly a difference this time around and I'm glad for it.

[The Enigma]

We take 50% of the B-52s from Barksdale, 50% of the B-2s from Whiteman, 50% of the B-1s from Dyess, load them to the gills, fly over to Iran/Iraq/NK (take your pick) and bomb the living shit out of it until they give up. What would all the Libs have to say about that?

Until the "give up" what ?

Didn't Iraq hand over all those WMD's already? 

[headhuntersix]

I disagree.

We want you guys out of harms way.  We support you.  Not Bush.  It is possible to support the troops but think the guy running the war is wrong.

And I thought americans were WAY more crude to soldiers during vietnam - spitting on them, etc.  You NEVER see that with this war.  We love the troops, they're celebrities.  We just see the reasons behind the war, and the poor mgmt, are terrirble.

I disagree with u over this and we have spoken about this many time..I see it more as indifference.....then u had a draft....now people have no stek in it. If they don't ever plan on serving they have nothing to worry about. I would like think that if there was a draft that folks would be more inclined to pressure Bush to WIN and pull out instead of pull out. I don't see the spiting or the hate..but if there was a draft u would..people just don't care as much either way.

[OzmO]

I disagree with u over this and we have spoken about this many time..I see it more as indifference.....then u had a draft....now people have no stek in it. If they don't ever plan on serving they have nothing to worry about. I would like think that if there was a draft that folks would be more inclined to pressure Bush to WIN and pull out instead of pull out. I don't see the spiting or the hate..but if there was a draft u would..people just don't care as much either way.

Good Point,  People these days seem more concerned about who's going to win the next American Idol.

However, i think with the draft, there would be even more support for the soldiers because many of them would be there not out of choice.   

[headhuntersix]

Good point..i disgrree that that would be the ourcome but very good idea, I would like to know what everbody else thinks...either more support for the troops and a lets win and leave or..draft riots and pull out now.

[militarymuscle69]

Good point..i disgrree that that would be the ourcome but very good idea, I would like to know what everbody else thinks...either more support for the troops and a lets win and leave or..draft riots and pull out now.

I agree with HH6 (not suprisingly) Today people claim "support" of the troops and use the death toll to pretend like they just want us out. They act like we aren't smart enough to make the decision to give our life and they need to "save" us from dying. In reality they just hate Bush and really could care less about us. (not everyone 240/OzmO)

[OzmO]

Good point..i disgrree that that would be the ourcome but very good idea, I would like to know what everbody else thinks...either more support for the troops and a lets win and leave or..draft riots and pull out now.

How could people support the troops better? 

I'm just curious.

Because i don;t see a change in the support domestically changing anything going on in Iraq.  But i could be blind to something.