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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Butterbean on May 15, 2006, 11:33:05 AM
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Would someone like to get us started? Johnny?
Why do you believe Atheism is correct?
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I'm curious as to what stems the non-belief in religion(s). A household with parents who have no religious beliefs? Tragedies in life where you feel as if your God betrayed or was not there for you etc., so you decided to go without religion in your life? etc. etc. etc. Some sort of reverse spiritual awakening?
How difficult is it to "grow up Atheist" in a society that is dominated by religion...Regardless of which religion(s)?
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atheism is to me a ship with no rudder in the ocean. you could chose a course but don't. you acknowledge your in a boat and in a ocean but give no thought to why?
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I'm curious as to what stems the non-belief in religion(s). A household with parents who have no religious beliefs? Tragedies in life where you feel as if your God betrayed or was not there for you etc., so you decided to go without religion in your life? etc. etc. etc. Some sort of reverse spiritual awakening?
How difficult is it to "grow up Atheist" in a society that is dominated by religion...Regardless of which religion(s)?
My guess is that it's based on experiences in childhood or tragic events just as you say. I've even done a small little study that always seems to yield the same results... People who did not have a good relationship with their "earthly" father have very hard time believing in God. And when this case isn't true, usually there's been some sort of event in a person's life that leaves them angry at God for hardships incurred.
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My guess is that it's based on experiences in childhood or tragic events just as you say. I've even done a small little study that always seems to yield the same results... People who did not have a good relationship with their "earthly" father have very hard time believing in God. And when this case isn't true, usually there's been some sort of event in a person's life that leaves them angry at God for hardships incurred.
Interesting about the father part... I've always seen athiests as overly analytical people who need to see proof of everything to believe it. For example, a group of people might be playing monopoly and someone might quote a rule and the one who always needs to see proof will refuse to continiue the game until he/she reads the rules themselves.
Remember the movie "Contact?" Jodie foster played it real well as an athiest. She needed to have proof otherwise she wouldn't consider it true. Much like Johnny is on some level. Belief in possibities and intangibles is what makes life so interresting combined with our journey fo discovering ourselves is part of what makes life worth living. It's hard for me to understand fully why an athiest would feel that way and in many ways i feel sorry for them, not that i should becuase i have not walked in their shoes.
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First let's define "Atheist". There are different definitions of Atheist. Two basic types of Atheists.
Atheist-One who denies the existence of a God.
Atheist-One who lacks belief in the existence of a God.
The first being "Strong" Atheist the second being "Weak" Atheist.
I am a "Weak Atheist". I do not deny the existence of a God. I simply lack belief. I neither claim there is or there is not a God. I have no proof one way or the other so I lack a belief one way or the other.
I simply do not believe a God does exist. The reason being there is no evidence a God does exist. I wasn't raised in an Atheist home. Both parents were Christians and I used to be a Christian myself. It was more of a gradual progress into critical thinking. Starting when I was a teenager.
Belief in a God is baseless. It is not based on any form of proof or evidence. All of the arguments for the existence of a God fall apart easily. Either based on lies or logical fallacies.
Moreover, The best appraoch in choosing your belief is to choose based on what you can prove. If you can prove a God exists then you should believe. If you can't prove a God exists then belief in a God isn't logical. Simply put.
People say "Oh,But it's faith!". What does faith even mean? Faith is defined as a belief without proof. Faith is in and of itself illogical. I don't have "faith". Does not having "faith" make me a negative person? No. I have hope but not faith. Hope is defined as the wishing something to be true. Faith is believing it's true. Big difference. Wishing for something and believing in something are a world apart.
Belief in a God is as Freud put it..A primal urge to have a "daddy figure". When you're growing up you can look up to your father as a protector. As you grow up you realize he can't protect you from everything and you need to fend for yourself more and more. Weak people refuse to admit they aren't being "watched over" by some fantastic father figure in the clouds. So they invent "God" to be that father figure watching over them.
In short Atheism is the most logical view. Weak Atheism can't be refuted or shown to have flaws. All it is is a lack of belief for what can't be proven. Skepticism of the uncertain. Incredulity of the incredible. Doubt of the doubtful.
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I'm curious as to what stems the non-belief in religion(s). A household with parents who have no religious beliefs? Tragedies in life where you feel as if your God betrayed or was not there for you etc., so you decided to go without religion in your life? etc. etc. etc. Some sort of reverse spiritual awakening?
How difficult is it to "grow up Atheist" in a society that is dominated by religion...Regardless of which religion(s)?
I don't feel God betrayed me anymore than I feel Santa Claus betrayed me for not getting me that baseball bat for my 5th birthday!
How hard is it to grow up as an Atheist? Not that hard. In Europe it isn't dominated by religion as much as in America. A good majroity of the population are atheists. America is extremly religious but even I doubt it's hard to grow up in America being an Atheist.
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atheism is to me a ship with no rudder in the ocean. you could chose a course but don't. you acknowledge your in a boat and in a ocean but give no thought to why?
Nonsense.
I can't speak for all Atheists but I personally DO give thought as to why i'm in a boat in the ocean.
Difference between Atheists and Religious people..Religious people make up reasons as to why they are in the middle of the ocean. Atheists like myself observe and experiment and look for evidence as to why we are where we are. We formulate hypothesis and test these hypothesis and then come up with scientifically supported conclusions based on facts and evidence as to why we are where we are! We don't simply say "Oh,A God put us here and that's all there is to it!" ::)
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Interesting about the father part... I've always seen athiests as overly analytical people who need to see proof of everything to believe it. For example, a group of people might be playing monopoly and someone might quote a rule and the one who always needs to see proof will refuse to continiue the game until he/she reads the rules themselves.
Big difference between trusting people you know and trusting in something not supported by an ounce of evidence..I.E a "God".
Remember the movie "Contact?" Jodie foster played it real well as an athiest. She needed to have proof otherwise she wouldn't consider it true. Much like Johnny is on some level. Belief in possibities and intangibles is what makes life so interresting combined with our journey fo discovering ourselves is part of what makes life worth living. It's hard for me to understand fully why an athiest would feel that way and in many ways i feel sorry for them, not that i should becuase i have not walked in their shoes.
"Belief in possibilities and intangiblies is what makes life so interresting"? Bullshit.
What makes life so interested is not believing in nonsense and myths.
What makes life so interesteting is finding out what is REAL and studying that. Finding the mysteries to the universe and solving them. Learning new things about the world we live in and not making nonsense up. That's what makes life interesting!
You feel sorry for me? A critical thinker? I feel sorry for YOU. I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't see the world as it is and instead tries to see it how they wished it were. The universe is a beautiful place as it is. Inventing Ghosts and goblins and faries and Gods only waters down the whole experience. Baseless hogwash is what it all is. And belief in it makes ME feel sorry for YOU.
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Nonsense.
I can't speak for all Atheists but I personally DO give thought as to why i'm in a boat in the ocean.
Difference between Atheists and Religious people..Religious people make up reasons as to why they are in the middle of the ocean. Atheists like myself observe and experiment and look for evidence as to why we are where we are. We formulate hypothesis and test these hypothesis and then come up with scientifically supported conclusions based on facts and evidence as to why we are where we are! We don't simply say "Oh,A God put us here and that's all there is to it!" ::)
i don't mind when others have a different opinion or thought but i do mind when someone takes what i write and works to dismiss it to make there point.
my point is you may by your definition look for a reason thru deduction and investigation to find a reason why you are in a sea and why you are in a boat but in your zeal to discount the thought of a "god" you discount the posibility since there is no tanagable proof.using history as a example of how theory and ideas change thru time and advancement it easy to come to the conclusion that maybe all the answers are not easy to understand and conclusions written in stone in one time or place can become changed and wrong.
in all your scientific discovery it comes down to something very simple. if "god" was something you could taste or touch or see or hear or feel why by definition would you ever need faith? if i tell you about a situation (will never happen) that happen to me and give you all the "facts" how can you disprove what i experenced? there is no way to "test" of recreate the situation so either you believe what happened as "fact" or you choose not to.
i tend to be very tolerant of peoples beliefs, if what you think is right and it makes you happy so be it because someone will be right and someone will be wrong in the end and it wont matter. i think the problem i have with atheist is it not a choice its a conclusion (there is no action if the action is to not make a choice to believe or not to believe) its pure and simple fence sitting i can't find "proof" so ergo there is no god.in that theory if i cannot get into a locked room and cannot see into a locked room and i cannot get around to see any sides of a locked room then it does not exsist. its a conclusion of the lazy or scared to not want to think past ones own self.
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my point is you may by your definition look for a reason thru deduction and investigation to find a reason why you are in a sea and why you are in a boat but in your zeal to discount the thought of a "god" you discount the posibility since there is no tanagable proof.using history as a example of how theory and ideas change thru time and advancement it easy to come to the conclusion that maybe all the answers are not easy to understand and conclusions written in stone in one time or place can become changed and wrong.
I'm not discounting the idea that a "God" may of made this universe(or in your analogy put us in the ocean). However I AM discounting the ARGUMENTS put forth that claim to prove such a thing happened.
True. Ideas in science change through time. However they only change through proof. I hold out on any possibility. I never dismiss anything. However I also never believe anything unless there's proof.
in all your scientific discovery it comes down to something very simple. if "god" was something you could taste or touch or see or hear or feel why by definition would you ever need faith? if i tell you about a situation (will never happen) that happen to me and give you all the "facts" how can you disprove what i experenced? there is no way to "test" of recreate the situation so either you believe what happened as "fact" or you choose not to.
Anecdotes aren't evidence. If you tell me of a "miracle" that happened to you(Has been done several times by other christians) then you'd have to prove it happened through facts,Not "accounts". In science "because he says so" isn't proof of anything. Unless you can prove such things occured then they're useless to me.
I choose not to believe fantastical accounts from people who claim they are miracles. I choose not to believe UNTIL they provide evidence.
People lie.
People get confused.
People fool other people.
People fool themselves.
i tend to be very tolerant of peoples beliefs, if what you think is right and it makes you happy so be it because someone will be right and someone will be wrong in the end and it wont matter. i think the problem i have with atheist is it not a choice its a conclusion (there is no action if the action is to not make a choice to believe or not to believe) its pure and simple fence sitting i can't find "proof" so ergo there is no god.in that theory if i cannot get into a locked room and cannot see into a locked room and i cannot get around to see any sides of a locked room then it does not exsist. its a conclusion of the lazy or scared to not want to think past ones own self.
You're missing the entire point of my former posts.
I NEVER conclude "There is no evidence for a god so there is no God." That would be a logical fallacy called "Argument from ignorance".
Fence sitting is the best option when the facts aren't known. You can't make the conclusion there is a God since there is no proof of that. Nor can you make the conclusion there isn't a God since there is no proof for that either.
I doubt there is a "God" but I don't say there isn't one 100%. I simply don't believe there is. Lack of belief and belief against are two different things.
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Are atheists really a cult started by Hitler?
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Are atheists really a cult started by Hitler?
Atheism isn't a foundation or a society or anything like that. It's simply a stance on the existence of God's.
Atheists go back to the Greeks. Many Greek philosophers were Atheists and the word itself has greek origins.
"Atheist" comes from greek "Atheos" meaning "Godless"
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Atheism isn't a foundation or a society or anything like that. It's simply a stance on the existence of God's.
Atheists go back to the Greeks. Many Greek philosophers were Atheists and the word itself has greek origins.
"Atheist" comes from greek "Atheos" meaning "Godless"
What is your theory about the earth's creation?
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What is your theory about the earth's creation?
Do you mean "Scientific theory" or "laymen theory"? Two are very different.
A "laymen theory" is a guess. A "Scientific theory" is a complex conceptual framework explaining a phenmenon with facts and experiment.
So which one?
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Do you mean "Scientific theory" or "laymen theory"? Two are very different.
A "laymen theory" is a guess. A "Scientific theory" is a complex conceptual framework explaining a phenmenon with facts and experiment.
So which one?
Whiever one you believe to be true. So I guess for you its the scientific theory.
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I got you cornered johnny! Evolution is a fraud!
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Just because I don't reply instantly doesn't mean anything. I have a life you know.
Whichever I think is right? That does not make sense. They're two different things.
What is my belief supported by facts about the earths creation? Long story short...Gravity. Gravity is responsible for the formation of the earth.
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Big difference between trusting people you know and trusting in something not supported by an ounce of evidence..I.E a "God".
Johnny, you seem to get the woring idea about alot of things then get snippy about it.
What i said was an observation about people's behavior. No shit, theirs a big difference in trusting poeple you know and trusting evidence.
"Belief in possibilities and intangiblies is what makes life so interresting"? Bullshit.
What makes life so interested is not believing in nonsense and myths.
What makes life so interesteting is finding out what is REAL and studying that. Finding the mysteries to the universe and solving them. Learning new things about the world we live in and not making nonsense up. That's what makes life interesting!
"Belief in possibilities and intangiblies is what makes life so interresting" Absolutley! The possiblity or a clean burning cost effiecienct fuel source. The possibility of the absense of suffering and hunger, the possibiltiy or harvesting resources form the moon, the possbility of love, etc... NOT "Inventing Ghosts and goblins and faries and Gods only waters down the whole experience"
That's the thing about you Johnny, what you lack in social competence is replace by general combativeness and arrogance. That's why i feel sorry for you. Combined with th fact you work 7 days a week or at least use it as an excuse not to face Mr. Intenseone Man to Man.
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Johnny, you seem to get the woring idea about alot of things then get snippy about it.
What i said was an observation about people's behavior. No shit, theirs a big difference in trusting poeple you know and trusting evidence.
"Belief in possibilities and intangiblies is what makes life so interresting" Absolutley! The possiblity or a clean burning cost effiecienct fuel source. The possibility of the absense of suffering and hunger, the possibiltiy or harvesting resources form the moon, the possbility of love, etc... NOT "Inventing Ghosts and goblins and faries and Gods only waters down the whole experience"
That's the thing about you Johnny, what you lack in social competence is replace by general combativeness and arrogance. That's why i feel sorry for you. Combined with th fact you work 7 days a week or at least use it as an excuse not to face Mr. Intenseone Man to Man.
The problem isn't with me. It's with your lack of comprehension of the english language.
"Belief in possibilites" should imply you literally BELIEVE in whatever is possible. Which is absurdity.
Replace "belief" with "hope" and "possibilities" with "Good possibilities" and i'd agree.
Pure "belief" in whatever is possible even if not supported by evidence makes no sense.
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"Belief in possibilites" should imply you literally BELIEVE in whatever is possible.
You'd make a great Bible Literalist!
You should read a book on social interaction and communication. YOU NEED IT.
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You'd make a great Bible Literalist!
You should read a book on social interaction and communication. YOU NEED IT.
You should read a book on the english language.
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You should read a book on the english language.
"STELLA MEY OF EDITID POST" ;)
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You should read a book on the english language.
If a book on the english language directly reflected with 100% accuracy how people communicate these days then you might have a point. But they don't.
So your point holds water like a strainer.
More social ineptness evidence.
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Just because I don't reply instantly doesn't mean anything. I have a life you know.
Whichever I think is right? That does not make sense. They're two different things.
What is my belief supported by facts about the earths creation? Long story short...Gravity. Gravity is responsible for the formation of the earth.
So gravity made your online girlfriend$$?
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I'm not discounting the idea that a "God" may of made this universe(or in your analogy put us in the ocean). However I AM discounting the ARGUMENTS put forth that claim to prove such a thing happened.
True. Ideas in science change through time. However they only change through proof. I hold out on any possibility. I never dismiss anything. However I also never believe anything unless there's proof.
Anecdotes aren't evidence. If you tell me of a "miracle" that happened to you(Has been done several times by other christians) then you'd have to prove it happened through facts,Not "accounts". In science "because he says so" isn't proof of anything. Unless you can prove such things occured then they're useless to me.
I choose not to believe fantastical accounts from people who claim they are miracles. I choose not to believe UNTIL they provide evidence.
People lie.
People get confused.
People fool other people.
People fool themselves.
You're missing the entire point of my former posts.
I NEVER conclude "There is no evidence for a god so there is no God." That would be a logical fallacy called "Argument from ignorance".
Fence sitting is the best option when the facts aren't known. You can't make the conclusion there is a God since there is no proof of that. Nor can you make the conclusion there isn't a God since there is no proof for that either.
I doubt there is a "God" but I don't say there isn't one 100%. I simply don't believe there is. Lack of belief and belief against are two different things.
1ST and i hate i am even taking the time to write for i do not care for you as a person and do not care or feel the need to try to convince you of a position since you made a choice based on findings you feel are correct so to so is also a waste of time.
that being said i really think either i am not being clear enough or you do not understand my ocean analogy is not that "god" created the ocean but that it exisists as does the boat the possiablity of a god in the creation process due to lack of proof does not.hope that helps.
the problem i have with your ideas stims from your belief that you know something due to vast book reading and schooling but you discount religion as if the same "man" who write the science book could be the same as writes the bible so with the belief that all men are faliable then anything you learned could be wrong and if you left with only things you proved yourself as fact you yourself are a man and thus can be wrong.
there is a game called telephone where something is started at one end and in the end it becomes something different, my point is just beacuse you think it and can point to a book or paragraph that supports you conclusion it does not make it right by definiation. people use both the science and the bible to there own ends.
proof is in the eye of the beholder. in the universe there are stars that cannot be scean but the light from these can, by right if it cannot be seen or touuched or felt they do no exist in the theory of atheistic "proof" of a god. i can point to a child and say to you thats a work of god though you can point to science and say thats the work of a union between a man and a women are you right? by your definition yes but is there a chance i can be right? yes and for me there is proof as the same as you it just depends on what you feel in your heart.
for me to walk in a world with or without a belief in something is wrong. i think if you choose not to feel some way about a "god" than great if you feel there is one great but to dismiss one side due to lack of proof i find to be poor, and that is the center of my problem either shit or dont but do not sit on the pot and tell me i can't shit.
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1ST and i hate i am even taking the time to write for i do not care for you as a person and do not care or feel the need to try to convince you of a position since you made a choice based on findings you feel are correct so to so is also a waste of time.
You don't care for me as a person? And I thought Christians were supposed to be kind and understanding... ::)
that being said i really think either i am not being clear enough or you do not understand my ocean analogy is not that "god" created the ocean but that it exisists as does the boat the possiablity of a god in the creation process due to lack of proof does not.hope that helps.
You're being perfectly clear and your argument makes no sense.
"The ocean and the boat exist but the possibility of a god in the creation process due to lack of proof does not"? That sentence makes no sense.
the problem i have with your ideas stims from your belief that you know something due to vast book reading and schooling but you discount religion as if the same "man" who write the science book could be the same as writes the bible so with the belief that all men are faliable then anything you learned could be wrong and if you left with only things you proved yourself as fact you yourself are a man and thus can be wrong.
1.You're compairing modern science books to ancient religous books? Is that a joke? You can't possibly be serious.
2.I don't simply believe everything I read. If there is no evidence for it then I simply don't believe it.
there is a game called telephone where something is started at one end and in the end it becomes something different, my point is just beacuse you think it and can point to a book or paragraph that supports you conclusion it does not make it right by definiation. people use both the science and the bible to there own ends.
You don't know anything about science obviously. Go back to highschool.
First of all...Telephone? I don't see how that compairson even fits here. That only works when you're communicated by word of mouth not text.
Second of all...Science works with EVIDENCE. FACTS,EXPERIMENTS. You can't accuratly use science in support of anything because it only supports what is proven. That's it. Your lack of understanding of science is astounding.
proof is in the eye of the beholder. in the universe there are stars that cannot be scean but the light from these can, by right if it cannot be seen or touuched or felt they do no exist in the theory of atheistic "proof" of a god.
You haven't been reading my posts have you? I never claimed just because I can't see it,it doesn't exist. I never said that. I said the contrary to that.
I see no point in wasting MY time with you when you can't even read or speak proper english.
You make no sense by stating "there are stars which can't be seen but the light from them can" WTF does that even mean? Do you even know what you're saying here? The object can't be seen but the light from it can? HAHA.
i can point to a child and say to you thats a work of god though you can point to science and say thats the work of a union between a man and a women are you right? by your definition yes but is there a chance i can be right? yes and for me there is proof as the same as you it just depends on what you feel in your heart.
If you use a "Child" as evidence of a God you have to PROVE that's evidence of a God.
I can prove it's evidence of man and woman having sex. Can you prove it's evidence of a God? No.
Not even compairable.
for me to walk in a world with or without a belief in something is wrong. i think if you choose not to feel some way about a "god" than great if you feel there is one great but to dismiss one side due to lack of proof i find to be poor, and that is the center of my problem either shit or dont but do not sit on the pot and tell me i can't shit.
You obviously didn't read my posts. More proof you're a waste of my time.
I said multiple times I never "dismiss" the existence of a God due to lack of proof.
I am a "Weak Atheist". I do not deny the existence of a God. I simply lack belief. I neither claim there is or there is not a God. I have no proof one way or the other so I lack a belief one way or the other.
::)
Last post i'll address from you in this thread. You don't read my posts to begin with so it's a waste of my time.
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glad johnny we are on the same page. i do not waste my time reading your posts due to the fact that i find you both a bore and a idiot and a judgemental assclown. if you look at my first post i was putting my 2 cents on a topic i tend to avoid wasting time with you and only respond to you since you felt it nessecary to make a comment.2nd at no point in anything i write do i call my self a christian but you make the assumption (without proof) that because i am defending the side of "god" ergo it makes me a christian or because i have had a experence you assume it make me a dye hard cross waving christian.
so let me break it down for you i am not the type that comes here to get into a pissing contest with people who i define thru there actions as assclowns because unlike you in my real life if we were in the same room and you ran your mouth like you do here the pressure you would feel on your throat would be my hand choking the life out of you and you could let me know when at the moment of exit if you see god.
you sent a stupid pm about debate i asked nicely for you to buzz off, if you continue to feel the need to take your little shots at me i may feel the need to "play" back with you.
do not respond or try to disect anything i write or make stupid comments if you don't like it or don't agree with it ignore it as i will attempt to do with you.
before you give me your "oh attack the person since you can't prove your argument" theory save it.just because you don't understand something does not make it wrong and to dismissed it just means we have not communicated correctly, i hope to not have to speak with you again.
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Helen Keller was once asked if there was anything worse than not having sight.
She responded "Yes, there are worse things than not having sight, ...having sight, ...but no vision"
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Did you know Helen Keller was a communist? I was shocked. Recently read it in "Lies My Teacher Told Me." Interesting book. Obvious liberal bias by the author, but still a good read.
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First of all...Telephone? I don't see how that compairson even fits here. That only works when you're communicated by word of mouth not text.
You make no sense by stating "there are stars which can't be seen but the light from them can" WTF does that even mean? Do you even know what you're saying here? The object can't be seen but the light from it can? HAHA.
I think the telephone reference was to the idea that a conversation that takes place between two people can be altered if say the story is told to one person and then that person calls another person and so on and so on. Ten people down the line the story will most likely have been altered from the original. Text is text and much less likely to be altered but still a possibility when translated from one language to another. The bible is most likely a representation of these stories, which may have been altered over time due to being passed by word of mouth, and in the end the truth may be different from what is reresented int he bible.
As for the light reference... When you look at an object you are not seeing that object. You are simply seeing the light that was reflected off that object unless the object is emitting it's own light energy. A red shirt is only red because red is the only color in the spectrum that is not absorbed by the shirt and that specific lightwave is reflected back to your eye. With that said...the light from a star is a result of the energy that is being released. Every star emits a different color due to it's unique combination of gases and other compounds that are the source of that energy. No 2 stars are the same color. The human eye is unable to detect the difference in colors of most stars. So technically AS is right because you really are not seeing the object but he is wrong in saying that the object cannot be touched because it can, we're just not close enough to do so.
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Johnny how did we come to exist? there was a bang from where and how>? Scientists are unreliable. They always change their data and get their "facts" wrong because they are only human. This is a battle you cannot win Johnny. God is and was and will be.
Johnny what happens to people after death? Do we just seize to think? How can this be possible? Here we are a source of spiritual never ending energy and the next thing you know somebody dies. Does this energy sease to exist. Please answer my questions if you can't I take it you can't prove anything about religion.
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Johnny is gone "forever." You might want to direct your question to his alter ego "Mark." :)
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Johnny is gone "forever." You might want to direct your question to his alter ego "Mark." :)
I feel happier all of a sudden. :)