SALVATION ACCORDING TO THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE

[Butterbean]

I've seen several posts that asking about the Christian plan of salvation.

I'll leave this as a sticky for just a few days.


1)  Believe you are a sinner and be willing to turn from sin.
     Romans 3:23: "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
     Sin separates us from God, who is Holy. 
     Romans 6:23a: "the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God).

2)  Believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and rose from the grave.
     Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this:  While we
     were still sinners, Christ died for us.
     1Peter 3:18:  "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous
     to bring you to God."
     Romans 6:9:  "For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he
     cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him."

3)  Accept the free gift of forgiveness that Jesus Christ offers you.
     John 1:12:  "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he
     gave the right to become children of God.
     John 3:16:  "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
     that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."



Though it is not necessary to say a prayer to receive Christ as Savior ("You are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast Eph 2:8,9), some people like to pray something like this:

"Dear Lord Jesus,
     I know that I am a sinner and need Your forgiveness.  I believe that You died for my sins.  I want to turn from my sins.  I now invite You to come into my heart and life.  I want to trust and follow You as Lord and Savior."

                                                                  In Jesus' name.  Amen.




   

[Johnny Apollo]

Stella...It simply isn't fair that you get to make as many stickies as you want supporting religion yet there is only 1 sticky skeptical of it.


If this is going to be an equal place for all views then you can't be making more stickies support religion than there are stickies skeptical of it.

[Bast175]

I agree with Johnny 100%

[Johnny Apollo]

In all fairness stella...You should change this from being a sticky to being a normal topic.

[Butterbean]

Stella...It simply isn't fair that you get to make as many stickies as you want supporting religion yet there is only 1 sticky skeptical of it.


If this is going to be an equal place for all views then you can't be making more stickies support religion than there are stickies skeptical of it.

Why do you feel that my post is a view "supporting religion?"  Why don't you consider it some kind of ridiculous farce, thus it would have no impact on you whatever other than to support your claims that it's all bull?


Meanwhile, as I said, I've seen posts asking for it.  I've typed a form of it so many times I thought I'd put it up so anyone wondering could view it.

It will only be up for a day or two more.

What thread of yours would you like me to sticky for a day or two Johnny?  I'll do it bro.

[Johnny Apollo]

As long as it's only for a day or two, I won't protest.

[Butterbean]

As long as it's only for a day or two, I won't protest.

[Johnny Apollo]

Is Christ God?


If so then why would an Omnipotent God need to die to forgive humanity of sins?

By definition an omnipotent god can do ANYTHING so why could he simply say "I forgive humanity!" and it be done? Without ever having to die? Why go through the whole process of becoming a human and dying on the cross just to forgive man when he could of done it in a microsecond?


If God knew all along that his creation was going to "sin" and then he would have to die for their sin why didn't he just do something to prevent that from all happening? I.E. not putting the tree on earth for them to eat and sin?

It couldn't of been a "test" if he knew they would eat from the tree. It would of been intentional and he knew all along they would sin and suffer from sin. So if he KNEW they would suffer form sin if he put the tree on earth since he knew they would eat from it...Why even put the tree on earth in the first place?

[alexxx]

I've seen several posts that asking about the Christian plan of salvation.

I'll leave this as a sticky for just a few days.


1)  Believe you are a sinner and be willing to turn from sin.
     Romans 3:23: "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
     Sin separates us from God, who is Holy. 
     Romans 6:23a: "the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God).

2)  Believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and rose from the grave.
     Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this:  While we
     were still sinners, Christ died for us.
     1Peter 3:18:  "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous
     to bring you to God."
     Romans 6:9:  "For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he
     cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him."

3)  Accept the free gift of forgiveness that Jesus Christ offers you.
     John 1:12:  "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he
     gave the right to become children of God.
     John 3:16:  "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
     that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."



Though it is not necessary to say a prayer to receive Christ as Savior ("You are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast Eph 2:8,9), some people like to pray something like this:

"Dear Lord Jesus,
     I know that I am a sinner and need Your forgiveness.  I believe that You died for my sins.  I want to turn from my sins.  I now invite You to come into my heart and life.  I want to trust and follow You as Lord and Savior."

                                                                  In Jesus' name.  Amen.




   

Amen!

[Butterbean]

Is Christ God?


If so then why would an Omnipotent God need to die to forgive humanity of sins?

See Johnny this is one reason I feel that either you haven't read the bible, or that if you did, you didn't understand it.

As you may or may not remember, when Adam and Eve first sinned, they "realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves."  Gen 3:7

After confessing to God that they ate of the only tree in the whole garden that He had told them not to, He "made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them."  Gen 3:21

The garments of skin were God's provision for restoring Adam and Eve's fellowship with Himself and imply slaying of an animal in order to provide them....a "sacrifice" if you will......a "shedding of blood."

As the bible further indicates, animal sacrifices were used as a "sin covering," and the best animals were called to be used, not ones that were inferior.

When Jesus came to die, He was the perfect sacrifice.  "Not one blemish was found upon Him."
And when He died, He died for all.....and once for all.  Sacrifices were no longer needed to Symbolize the forgiveness of sins.  See, God Himself had to die because no other sacrifice would be acceptable for such a task.

[Butterbean]

By definition an omnipotent god can do ANYTHING so why could he simply say "I forgive humanity!" and it be done? Without ever having to die? Why go through the whole process of becoming a human and dying on the cross just to forgive man when he could of done it in a microsecond?

Let's just look at this one from a common sense level.  So Adam and Eve do the ONE thing God told them not to do.  They sinned. 

You want God to just go, OK Adam and Eve and everyone else (later) when you sin, I forgive you.  .....no discipline, no consequences, nothing? 

He made a way for people to be forgiven by sending His Son to die on the cross.  All you have to do is accept the free gift of forgiveness.

Also, when He came to live among humans, He taught them/us how to live so we can have abundant lives.  He came down to our lowly level ...he became one of us.....because it would help us to understand.

[Butterbean]

If God knew all along that his creation was going to "sin" and then he would have to die for their sin why didn't he just do something to prevent that from all happening? I.E. not putting the tree on earth for them to eat and sin?

I don't know.  Some people may think that the hardships we go through in this life build our character as well as helping us to appreciate things.  If life was always like heaven will be, I don't think we'd appreciate it as much.

[Johnny Apollo]

See Johnny this is one reason I feel that either you haven't read the bible, or that if you did, you didn't understand it.

As you may or may not remember, when Adam and Eve first sinned, they "realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves."  Gen 3:7

After confessing to God that they ate of the only tree in the whole garden that He had told them not to, He "made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them."  Gen 3:21

The garments of skin were God's provision for restoring Adam and Eve's fellowship with Himself and imply slaying of an animal in order to provide them....a "sacrifice" if you will......a "shedding of blood."

As the bible further indicates, animal sacrifices were used as a "sin covering," and the best animals were called to be used, not ones that were inferior.

When Jesus came to die, He was the perfect sacrifice.  "Not one blemish was found upon Him."
And when He died, He died for all.....and once for all.  Sacrifices were no longer needed to Symbolize the forgiveness of sins.  See, God Himself had to die because no other sacrifice would be acceptable for such a task.

An omnipotent god wouldn't be obligated to do anything, espically sacrifice himself inorder to forgive his own creations.

"no other sacrifice would be acceptable"? Acceptable to WHOM? You're limiting the Power of an omnipotent being. An omnipotent being by definition can do ANYTHING. So it doesn't make sense for it to be limited by itself or anything else for that matter.

[Johnny Apollo]

Let's just look at this one from a common sense level.  So Adam and Eve do the ONE thing God told them not to do.  They sinned. 

You want God to just go, OK Adam and Eve and everyone else (later) when you sin, I forgive you.  .....no discipline, no consequences, nothing? 

He made a way for people to be forgiven by sending His Son to die on the cross.  All you have to do is accept the free gift of forgiveness.

Also, when He came to live among humans, He taught them/us how to live so we can have abundant lives.  He came down to our lowly level ...he became one of us.....because it would help us to understand.

This has nothing to do with disipline. Humanity had already been displined before Jesus died.

The question is why is death required for forgivness?

An omnipotent being has no limits or requirments. So it isn't required for him to sacrifice himself to forgive his own creations.


Humans(Already having been punished,which in itself makes no sense) right prior to jesus. God could of simply avoided killing his son(or himself) and said "I forgive you."

(All assuming jesus is God,Which he never stated himself)



Apparantly I am more powerful than God. I can simply forgive people by saying "I forgive you". God requires blood for himself to forgive anyone! And according to you he has no other choice.

[Johnny Apollo]

I don't know.  Some people may think that the hardships we go through in this life build our character as well as helping us to appreciate things.  If life was always like heaven will be, I don't think we'd appreciate it as much.

You're making the wrong assumption people who go through hardships actually LIVE through them.

Millions of people a year die from their hardships. So the whole "teaching us a lesson for life" goes down the toilet.

[OzmO]

You're making the wrong assumption people who go through hardships actually LIVE through them.

Millions of people a year die from their hardships. So the whole "teaching us a lesson for life" goes down the toilet.

Umm, NO.  It's what you become as a result of "living" through your hardship that defines your character.  The choices you make, the confidence or lack of confidence and how your paradigm changes is what you gain from these situations.  If someone dies in a hardship, then for you it is all moot.  But in case your are cronically short sighted, you may take what you did or did not choose to do into yor next life.

[Johnny Apollo]

Umm, NO.  It's what you become as a result of "living" through your hardship that defines your character.  The choices you make, the confidence or lack of confidence and how your paradigm changes is what you gain from these situations.  If someone dies in a hardship, then for you it is all moot.  But in case your are cronically short sighted, you may take what you did or did not choose to do into yor next life.

The Premise is that Sin causes the suffering of humanity.

The claim is that God put a tree down for humans not to eat(knowing they would eat from it) which then caused massive suffering and death.


Question being...Why did God put the tree down knowing they would eat it and knowing they would suffer and die?


The answer was that he did it to "challenge" us in life to strengthen us.

Of course this makes no sense considering suffering and dying doesn't strengthen anything.



So the question still isn't answered. Why did this God plant the tree down KNOWING humans would eat from it and knowing they would suffer from doing so? It couldn't of been a test if he knew the result. That doesn't make sense either.

In effect he intentionally made humanity suffer.


It's like putting a mouse trap down for a hampster. If the hapster goes for the cheese and dies..Then it's his fault!
Bad logic. The hampster has no idea it will die and even if it understood english wouldn't care what you had to say. Hampsters are hampsters and will go for the cheese, It's their nature. Meaning you're responsible for the death of the hampster...Not the hampster.


Another example with humans...A parent lets their child do whatever he wants. Eat candy for breakfast and pizza for dinner. The child gets overweight,Teeth rots out. Child has heart attack at age 12 and dies. The PARENT is responsible for the death of the child. The parent made it possible for the child to do what it wanted and the child did what it wanted even though it was wrong. A good parent wouldn't even give a child options to do those things. Therefor it's child abuse and the parent is 100% responsible.

God planting down a tree KNOWING humans would eat from it makes HIM responsible for the suffering of humans, Not humans. He MADE humans so he knew it was human nature to experiment and do what they aren't supposed to do. He knew they would eat from the tree and then suffer from sin. He still put the tree down. He's responsible..Not humans.

[OzmO]

The Premise is that Sin causes the suffering of humanity.

Not 100%. 

But try this:  God gave man free will. God knew there was a chance they would choose to "eat of the tree"...(real Bible literalist will tell you this was a  Metaphor for having sex.)  Becuase God doesn't know what choices man will make living (and the choices man makes)  is man's test.

This might be a poor analogy but:  You have 30 mice and maze.  Those that make the right choices and exit the maze in time will be "worthy" those that don't will be test subjects for detergents.

Also, Suffering and dying do make sense if there is an afterlife. 

[Johnny Apollo]

Not 100%. 

But try this:  God gave man free will. God knew there was a chance they would choose to "eat of the tree"...(real Bible literalist will tell you this was a  Metaphor for having sex.)  Becuase God doesn't know what choices man will make living (and the choices man makes)  is man's test.

This might be a poor analogy but:  You have 30 mice and maze.  Those that make the right choices and exit the maze in time will be "worthy" those that don't will be test subjects for detergents.

Also, Suffering and dying do make sense if there is an afterlife. 

You're forgeting we're talking about an omniscient being. A being that KNOWS EVERYTHING.

This god wouldn't know it would be a "chance" Adam would eat the fruit. He knew 100% he would absolutely eat the fruit.


So your example falls apart.

[OzmO]

You're forgeting we're talking about an omniscient being.

You're talking about one, and from quickly scanning the thread, you are the only who has talked him being omniscient.  I don't think God is 100% omniscient.  Otherwise as you  inffered:  What would be the point of all this?  Someone might say:  for the glory of god...  But i don't think so.  His gift of free will outside his control or knowledge is his doing.

[Johnny Apollo]

You're talking about one, and from quickly scanning the thread, you are the only who has talked him being omniscient.  I don't think God is 100% omniscient.  Otherwise as you  inffered:  What would be the point of all this?  Someone might say:  for the glory of god...  But i don't think so.  His gift of free will outside his control or knowledge is his doing.

The God in the bible is described as being "all knowing".

Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen.

God is also described as being "All powerful". "All powerful" would include the power of seeing the future.

[OzmO]

God is also described as being "All powerful". "All powerful" would include the power of seeing the future.

Eactly!  He could be powerful enough to give man his free will and make it so he doesn't know the outcome. 

Being All Powerful or ALL knowing still requires the choice of using the abiltiy, don't you agree?

[Johnny Apollo]

Eactly!  He could be powerful enough to give man his free will and make it so he doesn't know the outcome. 

Being All Powerful or ALL knowing still requires the choice of using the abiltiy, don't you agree?

Now we're getting into the paradox of omnipotence, But that's another thread.


If you're "All knowing" then you know everything. If you choose not to be "all knowing" then you aren't "all knowing" anymore. Obviously God choose to be all knowing and know everything since the bible implies just that.


I also doubt Christians would agree with the idea that God didn't know the outcome of humans and was oblivious as to what they would do.


Secondly let's assume for a second this God didn't know 100% if they would eat from the tree. Even still he's responsible as the hampster owner or the parent is responsible. Allowing a child to do something horrible and dangerous even if you don't know if they will actually do it is still irresponsible. And the parent would be responsible.

[OzmO]

Secondly let's assume for a second this God didn't know 100% if they would eat from the tree. Even still he's responsible as the hampster owner or the parent is responsible. Allowing a child to do something horrible and dangerous even if you don't know if they will actually do it is still irresponsible. And the parent would be responsible.

I hear ya.  However it wasn't dangerous, they just had sex.  (dangerous for some

Obviously God choose to be all knowing and know everything since the bible implies just that.

What the Bible implies is not relavent to what GOD decides to do or is.  But you aready know i'm not a big supporter of the Bible and it's direct connection to God.

I also doubt Christians would agree with the idea that God didn't know the outcome of humans and was oblivious as to what they would do.

There's different levels of that "know":

Did he know some would sin?

Did he know approximatly what percentage would?

Did he know what percentagre in what countries?

Did he know what age groups?

Did he every single person and exactly what they did?

[Johnny Apollo]

I hear ya.  However it wasn't dangerous, they just had sex.  (dangerous for some

What the Bible implies is not relavent to what GOD decides to do or is.  But you aready know i'm not a big supporter of the Bible and it's direct connection to God.

There's different levels of that "know":

Did he know some would sin?

Did he know approximatly what percentage would?

Did he know what percentagre in what countries?

Did he know what age groups?

Did he every single person and exactly what they did?

I've never heard that eating from the tree of knowledge is actually having sex. This doesn't make sense at all. Adam and Eve already had sex prior to eating from the tree of knowledge. The bible says God made Eve to "keep adam company" which would imply sex. Secondly the first mention of Sex is when they procreated Cain.



Also you're confusing things. Christians believe eating from the tree caused humans to be cursed with "original sin" which is the cause of all disease. Also christians believe ALL humans sin somehow. So the whole "what percent' make sno sense.