Author Topic: Oldtimer1  (Read 463944 times)

oldtimer1

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1950 on: November 18, 2021, 12:34:41 PM »
Trained back and chest.  Broken record of how I repeat workouts.  Had a great workout.  One thing I see in the gyms is a lack of self awareness. What I mean people just don't see how they are training. Incline presses stop short when they could go 4 to 10 inches deeper. Dumbbell rows where they neither go all the way up and dead hang. Leg presses grinding their joints down with the weight of car but barely bending their legs.  I'm guilty of this one to a certain extend. Doing curls moving your elbows forward because the weight is too heavy.  Sure you can't eliminate it unless you are doing a form of a drag curl with light weights. Just saying so many are not hitting their biceps optimally.  Sometimes you just have to lighten the weight to target the muscle you want to hit. Dorian Yates and Shawn Ray for the most part had good form.  Of course drugs and genetic potential trump all. Partials have their place.  It's a tool to use but it should never be a primary way of training so you can stroke your ego so you can use heavy weights.

Keeping with my topic sometimes it appears someone is using a light weight but because of the limited amount of rest between sets, moderate cadence and doing the exercise form in such a manor that it makes a light weight heavy it's not as clear that they are using light weight.  I never claimed to be a strong guy especially in my 60's but here is an example.  Doing incline dumbbell presses years ago I was using 80lbs. Going all the way down with relatively slow negatives.  A guy alternates with me using the incline bench. I believe he grabbed the 100lbs. My memory is fuzzy but it was a lot more than I was using.  He proceeds to knock out reps that stop far from all the way down. I would call them half reps.  No thought to the negative.  He then dumped the dumbbells with a big crash.  I picked up the 100lbs or what ever the weight he was and did the reps like he did doing one more rep. He asked me why I was using the 80lbs when I could clearly use the 100lbs.  He was just clueless. 

It can be summed up by saying make an exercise harder not easier. 

Pulldown 2 x 10 140lbs (upright back and no lean back and heave.)
Seated cable rows with a V handle 2 x 12 170lbs (All the way out and back)
Dumbbell rows 2 x 10 80lbs (All the way up and dead hang)
Narrow grip pulldown 2 x 10 125lbs (slow reps)

Incline dumbbell press 2 x 8 70lbs ( all the way down)
Decline dumbbell press 2 x 8 65lbs (slow and controlled)
Flat flies 2 x 10 50lbs ( I stopped these for a long time because a physical therapist said it's horrible for the shoulder joint. I think if you do them in a very controlled manner the stretch is good for the joint. Then again what do I know? My bad shoulder felt better when I went back to them is all I can say.)
Push ups 2 x max reps (regular and perfect push up handles)

Dead lifts 2 x 4 315lbs (slow negatives. I don't practically drop the weight on the negative like I see in all the gyms lately.)
Weighted hyper bench back extensions 2 x 15 25lbs plate behind my head

Ab wheel roll out 1 x 25
Pulley crunches 1 x 40 (I alternate using heavy and light weights for this.)

Heading out to see a play tonight.  Can't believe we have to bring a covid card to get in. Democrats say we need the shot but then say we need masks so the vaccinated can't spread the disease. This is never going to end. Fauchi is pushing a third shot now.

IroNat

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1951 on: November 18, 2021, 01:34:42 PM »
Actually, muscle development is often greater with partial range of motion.

Full range of motion often puts joints in dangerous positions resulting in injury.

Olympic lifters are extremely strong but do not do negatives on their lifts.

Did you ever watch Sergio Oliva do presses?  Partial reps.  I've personally known bodybuilders with great shoulder development who did partial reps.  Never full press.  Recall Ferrigno doing barbell presses in Pumping Iron.  1/2 reps.

Danny Padilla never did full range pullups.  He barely got his chin to the bar and never went all the way down.  He did probably 1/4 range pullups.  Great back.

Larry Scott cheated on some of his curling movements.  Great arms. 

It all seems to work.

Primemuscle

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1952 on: November 18, 2021, 01:50:07 PM »
Actually, muscle development is often greater with partial range of motion.

Full range of motion often puts joints in dangerous positions resulting in injury.

Olympic lifters are extremely strong but do not do negatives on their lifts.

Did you ever watch Sergio Oliva do presses?  Partial reps.  I've personally known bodybuilders with great shoulder development who did partial reps.  Never full press.  Recall Ferrigno doing barbell presses in Pumping Iron.  1/2 reps.

Danny Padilla never did full range pullups.  He barely got his chin to the bar and never went all the way down.  He did probably 1/4 range pullups.  Great back.

Larry Scott cheated on some of his curling movements.  Great arms. 

It all seems to work.

I think good form is what is most important in bodybuilding training. Variety is too. Using varied ranges of motion can really be beneficial and it keep the training fresh. My form isn't always as it should be. One really has to concentrate on it. If you are worried about hoisting too much weight, it can interfere with where the focus should be. That's when injuries happen.   

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1953 on: November 18, 2021, 02:00:27 PM »
I think good form is what is most important in bodybuilding training. Variety is too. Using varied ranges of motion can really be beneficial and it keep the training fresh. My form isn't always as it should be. One really has to concentrate on it. If you are worried about hoisting too much weight, it can interfere with where the focus should be. That's when injuries happen.   

What is good form?  Is full range good form or injurious?  Is partial range of motion injurious?

How much weight is too much?  50% of max?  70%?  90%  Funny thing is this doesn't seem to have much to do with injuries.
You're as likely to get injured using 70% as 90%.

You go out for a light jog and pull your hamstring or strain your calf muscle.  Weird.

We don't know much, really. 


Primemuscle

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1954 on: November 18, 2021, 02:22:05 PM »
What is good form?  Is full range good form or injurious?  Is partial range of motion injurious?

How much weight is too much?  50% of max?  70%?  90%  Funny thing is this doesn't seem to have much to do with injuries.
You're as likely to get injured using 70% as 90%.

You go out for a light jog and pull your hamstring or strain your calf muscle.  Weird.

We don't know much, really.

Ha, ha. You know the difference between good form and sloppy form. Both of which can apply to any range of motion. Only you know what your max is. Strength varies from person to person.

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1955 on: November 18, 2021, 02:27:48 PM »
Ha, ha. You know the difference between good form and sloppy form. Both of which can apply to any range of motion. Only you know what your max is. Strength varies from person to person.

All these exercises and machines are synthetic movements.  Someone made them up or invented them.

Someone thinks up an exercise like the bench press and says "go all the way down till the bar rests on your chest."  But who says that is the healthiest way to do it?  You do it and tear your rotator cuff.

Arthur Jones makes a machine and says "lower the weight all the way".  You do it and strain your shoulder.  So, was Jones right?


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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1956 on: November 18, 2021, 02:29:31 PM »

Primemuscle

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1957 on: November 18, 2021, 02:41:27 PM »
All these exercises and machines are synthetic movements.  Someone made them up or invented them.

Someone thinks up an exercise like the bench press and says "go all the way down till the bar rests on your chest."  But who says that is the healthiest way to do it?  You do it and tear your rotator cuff.

Arthur Jones makes a machine and says "lower the weight all the way".  You do it and strain your shoulder.  So, was Jones right?

You make a good point here. That's why it is important to tune in to your own body, since each of us is different. I have a long torso and arms, short legs, a forward head, underdeveloped delts and tend to be not particularly strong. Oh and a messed up right shoulder with a reduced range of motion on that side as a result of a bad fall a year or so ago.

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1958 on: November 18, 2021, 03:01:10 PM »
You make a good point here. That's why it is important to tune in to your own body, since each of us is different. I have a long torso and arms, short legs, a forward head, underdeveloped delts and tend to be not particularly strong. Oh and a messed up right shoulder with a reduced range of motion on that side as a result of a bad fall a year or so ago.

Excellent.

oldtimer1

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1959 on: November 18, 2021, 08:27:17 PM »
Actually, muscle development is often greater with partial range of motion.

Full range of motion often puts joints in dangerous positions resulting in injury.

Olympic lifters are extremely strong but do not do negatives on their lifts.

Did you ever watch Sergio Oliva do presses?  Partial reps.  I've personally known bodybuilders with great shoulder development who did partial reps.  Never full press.  Recall Ferrigno doing barbell presses in Pumping Iron.  1/2 reps.

Danny Padilla never did full range pullups.  He barely got his chin to the bar and never went all the way down.  He did probably 1/4 range pullups.  Great back.

Larry Scott cheated on some of his curling movements.  Great arms. 

It all seems to work.

Olympic lifters are not concerned with hypertrophy but with developing power and strength.

  Given a choice of of a stressor for adaptation it will always be with the exercise doing the most work. Simple physics 101 says distance and the load used equals the work.  Cutting the range equals less work.  Like I said partials have a role in training. It just shouldn't be the primary role. Doing a full range of motion within reason decreases the likelihood of injury because you're training the joint to be flexible.

 Concerning the stars of steroid bodybuilding I had a training partner that said I should never listen to a steroid bodybuilder's advice on anything. True, with out the drugs how do they look? 

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1960 on: November 19, 2021, 03:49:31 AM »
Olympic lifters are not concerned with hypertrophy but with developing power and strength.

  Given a choice of of a stressor for adaptation it will always be with the exercise doing the most work. Simple physics 101 says distance and the load used equals the work.  Cutting the range equals less work.  Like I said partials have a role in training. It just shouldn't be the primary role. Doing a full range of motion within reason decreases the likelihood of injury because you're training the joint to be flexible.

 Concerning the stars of steroid bodybuilding I had a training partner that said I should never listen to a steroid bodybuilder's advice on anything. True, with out the drugs how do they look? 

Without drugs how does anyone who is not Steve Reeves or who has genetic gifts look?

You follow the routine of Dorian Yates/Mentzer, both hugely drug fueled bodybuilders. 

Why would you think techniques promoted by heavy drug using bodybuilders would work for you, a natty?

There is an inconsistency with what you do and your post above.

What seems logical is not always fact. 

So much of what we think is based on bro-science. 

See above video I linked about partial range of motion.  It apparently works and has worked for many over the years.

There are some Oly lifters with fine physiques.  Powerlifters who do full range of motion and have lousy physiques.

For nattys the way your physique looks is usually a result of genetics. 

oldtimer1

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1961 on: November 19, 2021, 11:59:29 AM »
Cardio day. Did what I call a ladder in that every lap (quarter mile)  it goes up 1% of incline.  Again started at 0% at 3.8 MPH.  Got up to 10% incline then finished at cool down 0% grade.  Hit the heavy bag after for two rounds.  Felt the punches were hard and crisp. Thrown with bad intent,  ;D

oldtimer1

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1962 on: November 19, 2021, 12:30:13 PM »
Without drugs how does anyone who is not Steve Reeves or who has genetic gifts look?

You follow the routine of Dorian Yates/Mentzer, both hugely drug fueled bodybuilders. 

Why would you think techniques promoted by heavy drug using bodybuilders would work for you, a natty?

There is an inconsistency with what you do and your post above.

What seems logical is not always fact. 

So much of what we think is based on bro-science. 

See above video I linked about partial range of motion.  It apparently works and has worked for many over the years.

There are some Oly lifters with fine physiques.  Powerlifters who do full range of motion and have lousy physiques.

For nattys the way your physique looks is usually a result of genetics.

I don't follow the routines of Mentzer/Yates. I follow like they did the training methodology of Arthur Jones. True I use Yates's split some times with an exercise selection of my choosing. . At other times the split I use is a back and chest day, leg day and a shoulder/arm day. I don't remember Mentzer or Yates ever using that split or my selection of exercises.

I am a natural. Lifting weight isn't rocket science. Never has been. Drug guys do use many of the same protocols as non drug using lifters. My point is that so many steroid marvels looks like absolute crap without drugs. You have two factors on how you look. One is genetics and the other is work ethic. Given genetics or a work ethic I would choose a lifter with a work ethic to look good as a natural. Drug users throw in a third factor of drugs.  It begs to ask the question and directs to my point. So many drug users look like absolute crap without drugs. Do they have a real work ethic because no matter what they do without drugs they look like crap.  Do they really have exercise knowledge?

All of bodybuilding is bro science. A theory is not fact. Almost all of bodybuilding methods are based on empirical knowledge and passed on knowledge. This is not to be dismissed as junk science. It's to the contrary. It could be the most true science based evidence we have of proper training. Most studies on exercise have a much too small of a sampling of people. You also cannot measure a person's commitment to effort. In other words a sample of people could have one guy who trains to the ragged edge and those that dog the workout.

Of course many Olympic lifters have tremendous physiques. They lift heavy weights. Developing a physique is not their training goal but a by product of their training. If developing their physique was their goal they would train differently so I don't understand as usual your train of thought. My thoughts on training was based on optimizing physique methods. I'm not watching your video. I know you're a big fan of basing your conclusions on google searches and youtubes. I have a little advice. Just because it's on google or youtube doesn't make it true.


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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1963 on: November 19, 2021, 03:43:56 PM »
So, I'm confused.  You were mocking the guy in the gym who did partial range of motion but you said partials are useful.

You say your way is best.  On what basis do you conclude that full range is safer and more effective?

This is the reason I challenged your statements.  Nothing to do with drug use.

I personally do full range of motion. 

Of course you can use more weight doing partials.  That's why you do them.  You can load the muscle more with partials and also concentrate on particular areas where you have a sticking point.

You brought drug use into the conversation, not me.

I just pointed out that Danny Padilla did very limited range pullups and he had great development. 

Then you jump on that with the thing about steroid bodybuilders' advice.

Are you saying limited range pullups would not work for nattys?

You imply not to take advice from drug using bodybuilders, but you follow drug users routines like Yates.  You say "I did Yates today" for example.  That would make me think you did a Yates style routine.

That is not a problem if you like it but it is very inconsistent logic.

Then you say I blindly follow the advice of youtubers but I've many times posted NOT to take advice from drug users about training.

You, however, posted links to that guy on youtube who does high reps (who is obviously a drug user).

But you won't watch a video I gave you by a natty bodybuilder?




oldtimer1

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1964 on: November 20, 2021, 10:47:17 AM »
So, I'm confused.  You were mocking the guy in the gym who did partial range of motion but you said partials are useful.

You say your way is best.  On what basis do you conclude that full range is safer and more effective?

This is the reason I challenged your statements.  Nothing to do with drug use.

I personally do full range of motion. 

Of course you can use more weight doing partials.  That's why you do them.  You can load the muscle more with partials and also concentrate on particular areas where you have a sticking point.

You brought drug use into the conversation, not me.

I just pointed out that Danny Padilla did very limited range pullups and he had great development. 

Then you jump on that with the thing about steroid bodybuilders' advice.

Are you saying limited range pullups would not work for nattys?

You imply not to take advice from drug using bodybuilders, but you follow drug users routines like Yates.  You say "I did Yates today" for example.  That would make me think you did a Yates style routine.

That is not a problem if you like it but it is very inconsistent logic.

Then you say I blindly follow the advice of youtubers but I've many times posted NOT to take advice from drug users about training.

You, however, posted links to that guy on youtube who does high reps (who is obviously a drug user).

But you won't watch a video I gave you by a natty bodybuilder?

You're confused? I clearly said partials are a tool in lifting but shouldn't be the sole training protocol. Yes partials have a place in training. More often than not the majority of guys in the gym do it to stroke their egos about what they can lift. It's builds the little boy in them to say they use 400lbs when they squat when a full range 300lbs would have them pinned. Bodybuilding is an activity that has so many insecure guys that want to prove they are a man. It's easy to use heavy weights if you short stroke a movement but it's delusional strength. I have never seen so much of this back in the gyms in the 70's and 80's as I do today. Everyone thinks they lift heavy but they have to short strokes the lifts to accomplish it. I like Olympic lifting. You either put it over your head or you can't. No way to cheat that to stroke fragile egos. 


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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1965 on: November 20, 2021, 10:56:44 AM »
Leg day:  No warm ups shown below. Just work sets.

Leg press 2 x 12
Barbell squat 3 x 8 then 1 x 1 (haven't done these in awhile.  Used moderate weights till I get back in the groove again. Working on getting good depth. I'm not doing an Olympic squat or a power squat. I guess you can call it a bodybuilding squat. In between a high bar placement and low power bar placement.  Moderate stance. Letting the hips break first. Slightly below parallel. Hope to go deeper next week)
leg extension 2 x 20
standing leg curl 2 x 12

Hanging leg raise 2 x 22 (fairly straight legs)
Hips ups 1 x 31 ( On back legs facing the ceiling. Raise hips toward the ceiling)

Standing calf raise 2 x 15
Seated calf raise 2 x 15
tibialis anterior 1 x 20 (Used a thing called DART. Very effective)

four way neck machine 2sets of 25 a side.

oldtimer1

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1966 on: November 21, 2021, 11:05:46 AM »
Taking this Sunday off to rest. Tomorrow is a long day of working out in the early morning dark hours then going to work to get home at 7P. Decided to have a chill day today.

 Never knew my training and my thoughts on training pissed off people. I will keep up with my journal as long as it's fun to do it. I look in the mirror and I like what I see. Better built than most 20 something guys but of course I couldn't compare to a steroid user.  I will keep trying to improve though.  Got in three cardio days for the week. Hope to improve on that next week.  I have conviction in my training.  It's never ending it's journey.

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1967 on: November 22, 2021, 05:59:13 PM »
Delt and arm day.

Military press 2 x 8
Dumbbell laterals 2 x 12
Dumbbell rear laterals 2 x 10
Face pulls 2 x 12
Barbell shrugs 2 x 10

Weighted dips 2 x 12
Single dumbbell two hands behind head tricep extension 2 x 12 (I lean against Scott benched with the benched turned around)
Reverse grip dumbbell pulley single arm triceps extension 2 x 10

Alternate dumbbell curls 2 x 8
Drag curls 2 x 12
Concentration curls 2x 12

Wrist curls 2 x 25
Wrist extensions 2 x 15

Weighted crunches 1 x 60
Pulley crunches 1 x 50

Went to work and started to fade at the end of the day. I like early morning workouts while most are asleep. The solitude in my basement wearing ear buds so I don't wake up the house puts me in a zen zone. I like seeing the darkness leave the windows as the sunrises while I'm lifting.

 I was just notified my kick back machine I bought should arrive tomorrow and I'm excited about it. I first started using one at the commercial gym I went to. Never saw a guy using it. Only women used it. After my regular leg routine I went over to it. Slid the pin in and did a set. It felt fantastic. It felt like a one leg squat but it had a unique movement to it. Your femur travels posterior to your hip. I can't think of any conventional weight room exercise that can accomplish that except that new hip up people are doing with a barbell on their hips with a pad while their upper back is on a bench.  On my next set I adjusted the pin lower to make it hard. It's one of the most brutal machines I have ever used. It really is an amazing leg machine. The kick back machine in the gym might be the exact machine in the photo with the black guy using it. I bought the Titan plate loading one in the second picture. I really hope the machine is made correctly.  If delivered tomorrow I should have it together is a couple of days. I will do a review.

oldtimer1

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1968 on: November 25, 2021, 03:31:37 PM »
Trained back and chest today.  Weird lifting away in a basement and coming out seeing the whole neighborhood packed with cars. Celebrating Thanksgiving on Friday due to conflicting work schedules with the cops and military in my family.  Just weird having nobody here today. We should have a full house tomorrow. 

Got one of two boxes regarding the kick back machine. Box two will be here hopefully tomorrow. 


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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1969 on: November 27, 2021, 06:41:41 AM »
Always fun to get something new. 

Enjoy!

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1970 on: November 27, 2021, 10:38:39 AM »
Always fun to get something new. 

Enjoy!

Still waiting for the second damn box. FedX keeps changing the date.

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1971 on: November 27, 2021, 10:51:18 AM »
Trained legs.  Added a new exercise.  Using a new version of the iron boot I did single leg knee ups standing on a block. I attached a 20lbs dumbbell to the contraption.  I felt a strain in my groin from all the incline walking I've been doing the last two weeks. This exercise hit that area directly. 

Now I have to hit something called an escape house. My kids love this stuff but I have beyond no interest but going as a good sport because it's my daughter's 34 birthday.  I don't get it. They lock you in a room and you have to find clues to get out?  WTF? I have to pay for this "fun"? 

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1972 on: November 27, 2021, 12:15:51 PM »
Trained legs.  Added a new exercise.  Using a new version of the iron boot I did single leg knee ups standing on a block. I attached a 20lbs dumbbell to the contraption.  I felt a strain in my groin from all the incline walking I've been doing the last two weeks. This exercise hit that arear directly. 

Now I have to hit something called an escape house. My kids love this stuff but I have beyond no interest but going as a good sport because it's my daughter's 34 birthday.  I don't get it. They lock you in a room and you have to find clues to get out?  WTF? I have to pay for this "fun"? 

Interesting.

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1973 on: November 27, 2021, 01:02:05 PM »
Still waiting for the second damn box. FedX keeps changing the date.

Delivery this time of year is often delayed. I read that it is expected to be worse this year.

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Re: Oldtimer1
« Reply #1974 on: November 27, 2021, 07:25:12 PM »
Delivery this time of year is often delayed. I read that it is expected to be worse this year.

To my shock it got here tonight.  The second box weights 116lbs with no way to grip it on the smooth box. I don't have a hand truck. I pushed it in my garage and will assemble it tomorrow. I'll open the box and take the pieces down the basement. I hope I'm not disappointed in this thing because the kick back machine in the commercial gym was amazing.

The escape room was so much fun for the kids. I enjoyed watching them find the clues. Some of the rooms the opening was so small I had to crawl in. Hard to explain what it is but it's all hidden clues and math problems that leads you to more clues, keys, combinations, needed props like black lights and hidden rooms. They give you an hour to solve it.  My kids solved it with time to spare. The worker who watches you on security type cameras said he was impressed with the speed they solved the room getting to the last clue. I was mainly an observer. I didn't solve or find anything.  My adult kids were running around like crazy trying to solve all the clues that unlocked secret doors and such. The last room was a pizza place with a hidden door. Never heard of this activity before my kids bought it up. Apparently it's very popular.  I'm not a fan but it was fun watching my kids enjoy them self.