Author Topic: More classified documents found  (Read 15555 times)

Primemuscle

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #225 on: November 21, 2023, 01:54:30 PM »
Wrong.  There are no "processes and rules" the POTUS has to follow to declassify documents, unless the POTUS has actually enacted those "processes and rules."

This is not consistent with what I read, which is there are many 'processes and rules' which depend on the nature/content of the actual document and the source of the original document.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/government-classification-and-mar-lago-documents#:~:text=As%20with%20classification%2C%20declassification%20is,that%20the%20protections%20are%20removed.

Article II of the Constitution does not specifically address declassifying documents.

What is stated in the National Archives seem like processes and rules to me. You may not agree and that is your prerogative.

https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/appendix/12958.html

Not a rule? 'The original classification authority, to the greatest extent possible, shall declassify classified information contained in records determined to have permanent historical value under 44 U.S.C. 2107 before they are accessioned into the National Archives.'

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-6/chapter-I/part-7


More 'rules' regarding classified government documents:
https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/laws/national-security-information#:~:text=Sec.,-3.4Mandatory%20Review%20for&text=The%20Archivist%20of%20the%20United,title%2044%2C%20United%20States%20Code.

More interesting reading relating to classifying and declassifying. Are these simply guidelines or are they rules and proceedures?

'Some secrets, such as information related to nuclear weapons, are handled separately under a specific statutory scheme that Congress has adopted under the Atomic Energy Act. Those secrets cannot be automatically declassified by the president alone and require, by law, extensive consultation with executive branch agencies.'

https://abalegalfactcheck.com/articles/declassified.html

Related, here is a New York Times related article (a opinion based on factual information).

No credible evidence has emerged that Mr. Trump issued any standing order to declassify everything he happened to take from the Oval Office, and national security legal specialists have greeted the notion with disdain. Glenn S. Gerstell, the top lawyer for the National Security Agency from 2015 to 2020, said the idea that whatever Mr. Trump happened to take upstairs each evening automatically became declassified — without logging what it was and notifying the agencies that used that information — was “preposterous.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-classified-documents.html


There is a common thread through everything I read from a variety of sources which suggests declassifying government documents is not something which can be done 'willy-nilly' by the President as Trump implied when he said, 'just by thinking about it.'

Perhaps, you prefer to oversimplify the Presidents authority with regards to classified information/documents. I doubt when this issue is tried the conclusions will be arrived at with simplicity.


Dos Equis

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #226 on: November 21, 2023, 01:57:56 PM »
This is not consistent with what I read, which is there are many 'processes and rules' which depend on the nature/content of the actual document and the source of the original document.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/government-classification-and-mar-lago-documents#:~:text=As%20with%20classification%2C%20declassification%20is,that%20the%20protections%20are%20removed.

Article II of the Constitution does not specifically address declassifying documents.

What is stated in the National Archives seem like processes and rules to me. You may not agree and that is your prerogative.

https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/appendix/12958.html

Not a rule? 'The original classification authority, to the greatest extent possible, shall declassify classified information contained in records determined to have permanent historical value under 44 U.S.C. 2107 before they are accessioned into the National Archives.'

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-6/chapter-I/part-7


More 'rules' regarding classified government documents:
https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/laws/national-security-information#:~:text=Sec.,-3.4Mandatory%20Review%20for&text=The%20Archivist%20of%20the%20United,title%2044%2C%20United%20States%20Code.

More interesting reading relating to classifying and declassifying. Are these simply guidelines or are they rules and proceedures?

'Some secrets, such as information related to nuclear weapons, are handled separately under a specific statutory scheme that Congress has adopted under the Atomic Energy Act. Those secrets cannot be automatically declassified by the president alone and require, by law, extensive consultation with executive branch agencies.'

https://abalegalfactcheck.com/articles/declassified.html

Related, here is a New York Times related article (a opinion based on factual information).

No credible evidence has emerged that Mr. Trump issued any standing order to declassify everything he happened to take from the Oval Office, and national security legal specialists have greeted the notion with disdain. Glenn S. Gerstell, the top lawyer for the National Security Agency from 2015 to 2020, said the idea that whatever Mr. Trump happened to take upstairs each evening automatically became declassified — without logging what it was and notifying the agencies that used that information — was “preposterous.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-classified-documents.html


There is a common thread through everything I read from a variety of sources which suggests declassifying government documents is not something which can be done 'willy-nilly' by the President as Trump implied when he said, 'just by thinking about it.'

Perhaps, you prefer to oversimplify the Presidents authority with regards to classified information/documents. I doubt when this issue is tried the conclusions will be arrived at with simplicity.

Use your common sense.  If the POTUS is the only person in the country who can declassify any document (a fact), then he does not have to follow "procedures" imposed by some other person or entity.  That would mean he is not the ultimate declassification authority.  What you are reading refers to everyone except the POTUS. 

Agnostic007

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #227 on: November 21, 2023, 02:04:29 PM »
This is not consistent with what I read, which is there are many 'processes and rules' which depend on the nature/content of the actual document and the source of the original document.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/government-classification-and-mar-lago-documents#:~:text=As%20with%20classification%2C%20declassification%20is,that%20the%20protections%20are%20removed.

Article II of the Constitution does not specifically address declassifying documents.

What is stated in the National Archives seem like processes and rules to me. You may not agree and that is your prerogative.

https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/appendix/12958.html

Not a rule? 'The original classification authority, to the greatest extent possible, shall declassify classified information contained in records determined to have permanent historical value under 44 U.S.C. 2107 before they are accessioned into the National Archives.'

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-6/chapter-I/part-7


More 'rules' regarding classified government documents:
https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/laws/national-security-information#:~:text=Sec.,-3.4Mandatory%20Review%20for&text=The%20Archivist%20of%20the%20United,title%2044%2C%20United%20States%20Code.

More interesting reading relating to classifying and declassifying. Are these simply guidelines or are they rules and proceedures?

'Some secrets, such as information related to nuclear weapons, are handled separately under a specific statutory scheme that Congress has adopted under the Atomic Energy Act. Those secrets cannot be automatically declassified by the president alone and require, by law, extensive consultation with executive branch agencies.'

https://abalegalfactcheck.com/articles/declassified.html

Related, here is a New York Times related article (a opinion based on factual information).

No credible evidence has emerged that Mr. Trump issued any standing order to declassify everything he happened to take from the Oval Office, and national security legal specialists have greeted the notion with disdain. Glenn S. Gerstell, the top lawyer for the National Security Agency from 2015 to 2020, said the idea that whatever Mr. Trump happened to take upstairs each evening automatically became declassified — without logging what it was and notifying the agencies that used that information — was “preposterous.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-classified-documents.html


There is a common thread through everything I read from a variety of sources which suggests declassifying government documents is not something which can be done 'willy-nilly' by the President as Trump implied when he said, 'just by thinking about it.'

Perhaps, you prefer to oversimplify the Presidents authority with regards to classified information/documents. I doubt when this issue is tried the conclusions will be arrived at with simplicity.

I'm just curious. At any point while creating this post that clearly supports your position that there are processes for declassification of documents depending on what the documents contain, did you think to yourself "Dos Equis will read this and finally understand."?  Or was it more like an interaction with Coach where you do it for the entertainment value as it's impossible to get past the brainwashing?

Primemuscle

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #228 on: November 22, 2023, 12:04:27 AM »
Use your common sense.  If the POTUS is the only person in the country who can declassify any document (a fact), then he does not have to follow "procedures" imposed by some other person or entity.  That would mean he is not the ultimate declassification authority.  What you are reading refers to everyone except the POTUS.

Your almost correct but not entirely so.

"Most national security legal experts dismissed the former president’s suggestion that he could declassify documents simply by thinking about it. But as an ABA Legal Fact Check posted Oct. 17 explains, legal guidelines support his contention that presidents have broad authority to formally declassify most documents that are not statutorily protected, while they are in office.

The system of classifying national security documents is largely a bureaucratic process used by the federal government to control how executive branch officials handle information, whose release could cause the country harm. The government has, however, prosecuted cases for both mistaken and deliberate mishandling of information. Under the U.S. Constitution, the president as commander in chief is given broad powers to classify and declassify such information, often through use of executive orders.

Some secrets, such as information related to nuclear weapons, are handled separately under a specific statutory scheme that Congress has adopted under the Atomic Energy Act. Those secrets cannot be automatically declassified by the president alone and require, by law, extensive consultation with executive branch agencies.


In all cases, however, a formal procedure is required so governmental agencies know with certainty what has been declassified and decisions memorialized. A federal appeals court in a 2020 Freedom of Information Act case, New York Times v. CIA, underscored that point: “Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures,” the court said.

As the new ABA Legal Fact Check notes, the extent of a president’s legal authority to unilaterally declassify materials — without following formal procedures — has yet to be challenged in court."

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2022/10/fact-check-presidential-authority/#:~:text=Under%20the%20U.S.%20Constitution%2C%20the,through%20use%20of%20executive%20orders.

It will be interesting to see if and when this is challenged how the court rules on it.


What is more, when it comes right down to the wire whether any of said documents were declassified may be a moot point.

"Donald Trump improperly retained at Mar-a-Lago were more than 300 documents that bore unambiguous classification markings. Not only should these documents have been turned over to the National Archives and Records Administration (in accordance with the Presidential Records Act), but their storage at an insecure location violated the rules governing the handling of classified material — and could have put national security at risk. Trump has defended his conduct by claiming, without any evidence, that he declassified the documents.


https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/government-classification-and-mar-lago-documents


Primemuscle

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #229 on: November 22, 2023, 12:19:34 AM »
Your almost correct but not entirely so.

"Most national security legal experts dismissed the former president’s suggestion that he could declassify documents simply by thinking about it. But as an ABA Legal Fact Check posted Oct. 17 explains, legal guidelines support his contention that presidents have broad authority to formally declassify most documents that are not statutorily protected, while they are in office.

The Brennan Center for Justice observations and remarks below are one opinion regarding the matter of declassification of government documents. It is likely to be argued in court at Trumps trail.

The system of classifying national security documents is largely a bureaucratic process used by the federal government to control how executive branch officials handle information, whose release could cause the country harm. The government has, however, prosecuted cases for both mistaken and deliberate mishandling of information. Under the U.S. Constitution, the president as commander in chief is given broad powers to classify and declassify such information, often through use of executive orders.

Some secrets, such as information related to nuclear weapons, are handled separately under a specific statutory scheme that Congress has adopted under the Atomic Energy Act. Those secrets cannot be automatically declassified by the president alone and require, by law, extensive consultation with executive branch agencies.


In all cases, however, a formal procedure is required so governmental agencies know with certainty what has been declassified and decisions memorialized. A federal appeals court in a 2020 Freedom of Information Act case, New York Times v. CIA, underscored that point: “Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures,” the court said.

As the new ABA Legal Fact Check notes, the extent of a president’s legal authority to unilaterally declassify materials — without following formal procedures — has yet to be challenged in court."

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2022/10/fact-check-presidential-authority/#:~:text=Under%20the%20U.S.%20Constitution%2C%20the,through%20use%20of%20executive%20orders.

It will be interesting to see if and when this is challenged how the court rules on it.


What is more, when it comes right down to the wire whether any of said documents were declassified may be a moot point.

"Donald Trump improperly retained at Mar-a-Lago were more than 300 documents that bore unambiguous classification markings. Not only should these documents have been turned over to the National Archives and Records Administration (in accordance with the Presidential Records Act), but their storage at an insecure location violated the rules governing the handling of classified material — and could have put national security at risk. Trump has defended his conduct by claiming, without any evidence, that he declassified the documents.


https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/government-classification-and-mar-lago-documents

Dos Equis

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #230 on: November 22, 2023, 11:33:59 AM »
Your almost correct but not entirely so.

"Most national security legal experts dismissed the former president’s suggestion that he could declassify documents simply by thinking about it. But as an ABA Legal Fact Check posted Oct. 17 explains, legal guidelines support his contention that presidents have broad authority to formally declassify most documents that are not statutorily protected, while they are in office.

The system of classifying national security documents is largely a bureaucratic process used by the federal government to control how executive branch officials handle information, whose release could cause the country harm. The government has, however, prosecuted cases for both mistaken and deliberate mishandling of information. Under the U.S. Constitution, the president as commander in chief is given broad powers to classify and declassify such information, often through use of executive orders.

Some secrets, such as information related to nuclear weapons, are handled separately under a specific statutory scheme that Congress has adopted under the Atomic Energy Act. Those secrets cannot be automatically declassified by the president alone and require, by law, extensive consultation with executive branch agencies.


In all cases, however, a formal procedure is required so governmental agencies know with certainty what has been declassified and decisions memorialized. A federal appeals court in a 2020 Freedom of Information Act case, New York Times v. CIA, underscored that point: “Declassification cannot occur unless designated officials follow specified procedures,” the court said.

As the new ABA Legal Fact Check notes, the extent of a president’s legal authority to unilaterally declassify materials — without following formal procedures — has yet to be challenged in court."

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2022/10/fact-check-presidential-authority/#:~:text=Under%20the%20U.S.%20Constitution%2C%20the,through%20use%20of%20executive%20orders.

It will be interesting to see if and when this is challenged how the court rules on it.


What is more, when it comes right down to the wire whether any of said documents were declassified may be a moot point.

"Donald Trump improperly retained at Mar-a-Lago were more than 300 documents that bore unambiguous classification markings. Not only should these documents have been turned over to the National Archives and Records Administration (in accordance with the Presidential Records Act), but their storage at an insecure location violated the rules governing the handling of classified material — and could have put national security at risk. Trump has defended his conduct by claiming, without any evidence, that he declassified the documents.


https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/government-classification-and-mar-lago-documents

I am entirely correct.  You just refuse to engage in any independent thought.  You're not a completely illogical person.  Use your common sense.  Answer this question to yourself:  Does the POTUS have the power to classify and/or declassify anything?  If the answer is yes (it is), then ask yourself how anyone can restrict his ability to do so? 

And I can use Google too. 

James Risch stated on May 15, 2017 in remarks to reporters:
"The minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process."
truemostly-true
Louis Jacobson
By Louis Jacobson
May 16, 2017

Does the president have 'the ability to declassify anything at any time'?
The blockbuster article in The Washington Post saying President Donald Trump had "revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting" didn’t just put the White House on the defensive. It also put Republican lawmakers in a tight spot.

One of the members of Congress who commented after the newspaper’s revelations was Sen. James Risch, R-Idaho. According to CNN, he told reporters, "The minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process."

Is that accurate? Independent experts said Risch is on target concerning the legal powers of the president. Some experts added, however, that the senator’s formulation left out some context that is relevant for assessing Trump’s alleged actions.

The president’s classification and declassification powers are broad
Experts agreed that the president, as commander in chief, is ultimately responsible for classification and declassification.
When people lower in the chain of command handle classification and declassification duties — which is usually how it’s done — it’s because they have been delegated to do so by the president directly, or by an appointee chosen by the president.

The majority ruling in the 1988 Supreme Court case Department of Navy vs. Egan — which addressed the legal recourse of a Navy employee who had been denied a security clearance — addresses this line of authority.

"The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’" according to Article II of the Constitution, the court’s majority wrote. "His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security ... flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."


Steven Aftergood, director of the Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy, said that such authority gives the president the authority to "classify and declassify at will."

In fact, Robert F. Turner, associate director of the University of Virginia's Center for National Security Law, said that "if Congress were to enact a statute seeking to limit the president’s authority to classify or declassify national security information, or to prohibit him from sharing certain kinds of information with Russia, it would raise serious separation of powers constitutional issues."

The official documents governing classification and declassification stem from executive orders. But even these executive orders aren’t necessarily binding on the president. The president is not "obliged to follow any procedures other than those that he himself has prescribed," Aftergood said. "And he can change those."

Indeed, the controlling executive order has been rewritten by multiple presidents. The current version of the order was issued by President Barack Obama in 2009.

The national-security experts at the blog Lawfare wrote in the wake of the Post’s revelation that the "infamous comment" by President Richard Nixon — that "when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal" — "is actually true about some things. Classified information is one of them. The nature of the system is that the president gets to disclose what he wants."

Two caveats
So Risch’s comment holds water when it comes to the extent of the president’s powers. But some experts said that Risch’s formulation leaves out some notable aspects of the particular case involving Trump.

The first caveat: While Trump has the power to declassify information, he doesn’t appear to have done that in this case, at least at the time the story broke.

"There’s no question that the president has broad authority to declassify almost anything at any time without any process, but that’s not what happened here," said Stephen I. Vladeck, professor at the University of Texas School of Law. "He did not, in fact, declassify the information he shared with the Russians, which is why The Washington Post did not publish that information."

FEATURED FACT-CHECK

Donald Trump
stated on November 8, 2023 in a rally in Hialeah
“Just like the Cuban regime, the Biden administration is trying to put their political opponents in jail, shutting down free speech.”
truefalse
By Maria Briceño • November 15, 2023
Instead, Vladeck said, Trump "took it upon himself to authorize officials from a foreign government to receive classified national security information that was itself derived from a different foreign government’s intelligence gathering. That’s just not the same thing as what Sen. Risch described, and the law on this topic is far murkier."

Elizabeth Goitein, co-director of the Liberty & National Security Program at New York University’s Brennan Center, agreed that Risch’s point speaks to general presidential authority but not what happened in this particular case.

"Trump surely would not concede that the information in question is now ‘unclassified’ and available to anyone who files a (Freedom of Information Act) request," she said. "The relevant question, therefore, is not whether the president can spontaneously declassify information, but whether the president is permitted to disclose sensitive national security information to anyone he wishes."

Turner noted, however, that this isn’t necessarily a big distinction, since the president is ultimately the decider of what is classified and not. If his appointees disagree with his actions, "he can overrule their decisions," Turner said. "Within the Executive Branch the president is the boss."

The second caveat: Just because something is legal doesn’t mean that it’s a smart idea.

"The important caveat is that ‘legal’ and ‘sensible’ may be different things," said John Pike, the director of globalsecurity.org. "It may be legal, but it may fail to avoid the appearance of impropriety."

Setting aside ethics, doing what Trump is alleged to have done could have negative practical consequences for the United States. "It could wreck the underlying intelligence-sharing agreement and place the U.S. at a disadvantage," Aftergood said.

That said, the line between wise and unwise is a judgment call.

On the one hand, Turner agreed that alienating an ally by not following their orders "could have very serious consequences."

On the other hand, he said, it’s not outlandish to argue that sharing closely held information with Russia could advance, rather than hurt, national interests.

Turner said it may be "in America’s interest to cooperate with Russia in the struggle against ISIS, including sharing intelligence information that may help save Russian lives and seeking information that may save American lives and those of other potential victims of ISIS attacks. Obviously, in the process we will want to safeguard sources and methods that might weaken our ability to keep track of what President Putin is up to--as he is potentially a greater threat to our security than is ISIS.  But the struggle against ISIS is an area where the United States and Russia have a shared interest."

In a statement to PolitiFact, Risch’s office said that criticism of the wisdom of Trump's action would be a personal opinion, but such sentiments would not speak to "the letter of the law."

"Sen. Risch can tell you that all former presidents of the United States spoke regularly with heads of states and discussed classified matter, if they determined it to be in the best interest of the American people," the statement said.

 
Our ruling
Risch said, "The minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process."

We found broad agreement that a president, using powers granted by the Constitution, is able to declassify essentially anything. However, experts added that Risch’s comment was not entirely on point for the particular situation involving Trump.

In this case, it appears Trump didn’t actually use his declassification power before talking to the Russian officials, and just because Trump’s actions were legal doesn’t necessarily mean they were wise. These caveats add nuance to analyses of what Trump did.

The statement is accurate but needs clarification and additional information, so we rate it Mostly True.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

Primemuscle

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #231 on: November 22, 2023, 03:56:10 PM »
I am entirely correct.  You just refuse to engage in any independent thought.  You're not a completely illogical person.  Use your common sense.  Answer this question to yourself:  Does the POTUS have the power to classify and/or declassify anything?  If the answer is yes (it is), then ask yourself how anyone can restrict his ability to do so? 
And I can use Google too. 
James Risch stated on May 15, 2017, in remarks to reporters:
"The minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process."
True, mostly-true
Louis Jacobson
By Louis Jacobson
May 16, 2017

What makes James Risch and Louis Jacobson  authorities on the President's ability to declassify anything. Also, Louis qualified his opinion when he wrote "mostly true."

Does the president have 'the ability to declassify anything at any time'?
The blockbuster article in The Washington Post saying President Donald Trump had "revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting" didn’t just put the White House on the defensive. It also put Republican lawmakers in a tight spot.
One of the members of Congress who commented after the newspaper’s revelations was Sen. James Risch, R-Idaho. According to CNN, he told reporters, "The minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process."
Is that accurate? Independent experts said Risch is on target concerning the legal powers of the president. Some experts added, however, that the senator’s formulation left out some context that is relevant for assessing Trump’s alleged actions.


What context did James Risch leave out that was relevant to Trumps alleged actions?
Again, what gives you the idea that James Risch is an authority on these matters?

The president’s classification and declassification powers are broad.
Experts agreed that the president, as commander in chief, is ultimately responsible for classification and declassification.
When people lower in the chain of command handle classification and declassification duties — which is usually how it’s done — it’s because they have been delegated to do so by the president directly, or by an appointee chosen by the president.
Broad does not mean absolute.
Who are these so-called experts?
Ultimately responsibility does not mean without any constraints. Nor does the President’s ability to appoint people to do these tasks for him mean there aren’t procedures for declassification. 

The majority ruling in the 1988 Supreme Court case Department of Navy vs. Egan — which addressed the legal recourse of a Navy employee who had been denied a security clearance — addresses this line of authority.
"The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States’" according to Article II of the Constitution, the court’s majority wrote. "His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security ... flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant."
The definition of primarily is-  for the most part; mainly. This is not the same as saying the President’s  authority is absolute. It is quite the opposite.
Steven Aftergood, director of the Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy, said that such authority gives the president the authority to "classify and declassify at will."

Steven Aftergood is a critic of U.S. government secrecy policy. He directs the Federation of American Scientists project on Government Secrecy and is the author of the Federation publication Secrecy News. What about any of this qualifies him as an expert on the President’s abilities to do anything. What Stephen Aftergood says and believes has no relevancy to this matter.

In fact, Robert F. Turner, associate director of the University of Virginia's Center for National Security Law, said that "if Congress were to enact a statute seeking to limit the president’s authority to classify or declassify national security information, or to prohibit him from sharing certain kinds of information with Russia, it would raise serious separation of powers constitutional issues."

The official documents governing classification and declassification stem from executive orders. But even these executive orders aren’t necessarily binding on the president. The president is not "obliged to follow any procedures other than those that he himself has prescribed," Aftergood said. "And he can change those."
Big whoop-de-do!
So, Robert F. Turneer is the associate director of the University of Virginia’s Center of National Security Law. Below is an outline of who they are and what they do. Why should anyone care what Robert F. Turner thinks or says with regards to the Presidents authority?

The center is the hub for national security law activities at the Law School, and cooperates with student groups, faculty members, the Public Service Center and Career Development, and outside organizations to coordinate speakers, events, summer and postgraduate employment, and pro bono opportunities.

Indeed, the controlling executive order has been rewritten by multiple presidents. The current version of the order was issued by President Barack Obama in 2009.

The national-security experts at the blog Lawfare wrote in the wake of the Post’s revelation that the "infamous comment" by President Richard Nixon — that "when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal" — "is actually true about some things. Classified information is one of them. The nature of the system is that the president gets to disclose what he wants."
Rewritten by multiple Presidents means exactly what?
Blog Lawfare?  So now we are going by what is said on a blog. Really?

Two caveats
So Risch’s comment holds water when it comes to the extent of the president’s powers. But some experts said that Risch’s formulation leaves out some notable aspects of the particular case involving Trump.

The first caveat: While Trump has the power to declassify information, he doesn’t appear to have done that in this case, at least at the time the story broke.

"There’s no question that the president has broad authority to declassify almost anything at any time without any process, but that’s not what happened here," said Stephen I. Vladeck, professor at the University of Texas School of Law. [B"He did not, in fact, declassify the information he shared with the Russians,[/b] which is why The Washington Post did not publish that information."

FEATURED FACT-CHECK


Donald Trump
stated on November 8, 2023 in a rally in Hialeah
“Just like the Cuban regime, the Biden administration is trying to put their political opponents in jail, shutting down free speech.”

truefalse
By Maria Briceño • November 15, 2023
Instead, Vladeck said, Trump "took it upon himself to authorize officials from a foreign government to receive classified national security information that was itself derived from a different foreign government’s intelligence gathering. That’s just not the same thing as what Sen. Risch described, and the law on this topic is far murkier."


Elizabeth Goitein, co-director of the Liberty & National Security Program at New York University’s Brennan Center, agreed that Risch’s point speaks to general presidential authority but not what happened in this case.

"Trump surely would not concede that the information in question is now ‘unclassified’ and available to anyone who files a (Freedom of Information Act) request," she said. "The relevant question, therefore, is not whether the president can spontaneously declassify information, but whether the president is permitted to disclose sensitive national security information to anyone he wishes."

Turner noted, however, that this isn’t necessarily a big distinction, since the president is ultimately the decider of what is classified and not. If his appointees disagree with his actions, "he can overrule their decisions," Turner said. "Within the Executive Branch the president is the boss."

The second caveat: Just because something is legal doesn’t mean that it’s a smart idea.

"The important caveat is that ‘legal’ and ‘sensible’ may be different things," said John Pike, the director of globalsecurity.org. "It may be legal, but it may fail to avoid the appearance of impropriety."

Setting aside ethics, doing what Trump is alleged to have done could have negative practical consequences for the United States. "It could wreck the underlying intelligence-sharing agreement and place the U.S. at a disadvantage," Aftergood said.

That said, the line between wise and unwise is a judgment call.

On the one hand, Turner agreed that alienating an ally by not following their orders "could have very serious consequences."

On the other hand, he said, it’s not outlandish to argue that sharing closely held information with Russia could advance, rather than hurt, national interests.

Turner said it may be "in America’s interest to cooperate with Russia in the struggle against ISIS, including sharing intelligence information that may help save Russian lives and seeking information that may save American lives and those of other potential victims of ISIS attacks. Obviously, in the process we will want to safeguard sources and methods that might weaken our ability to keep track of what President Putin is up to--as he is potentially a greater threat to our security than is ISIS.  But the struggle against ISIS is an area where the United States and Russia have a shared interest."

In a statement to PolitiFact, Risch’s office said that criticism of the wisdom of Trump's action would be a personal opinion, but such sentiments would not speak to "the letter of the law."

"Sen. Risch can tell you that all former presidents of the United States spoke regularly with heads of states and discussed classified matter, if they determined it to be in the best interest of the American people," the statement said.

 
Our ruling
Risch said, "The minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process."

We found broad agreement that a president, using powers granted by the Constitution, is able to declassify essentially anything. However, experts added that Risch’s comment was not entirely on point for the particular situation involving Trump.

In this case, it appears Trump didn’t actually use his declassification power before talking to the Russian officials, and just because Trump’s actions were legal doesn’t necessarily mean they were wise. These caveats add nuance to analyses of what Trump did.

The statement is accurate but needs clarification and additional information, so we rate it Mostly True.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/
It is  interesting that you included some of these comments in your response because they are not helpful for Trump’s defense in the classified documents charges against him.
It is not clear to me why you included Trump’s comments on November 8, 2023, in a rally in Hialeah. Was this an error?
Though out your response you’ve relied on comments from people who have no legal authority but rather just opinions. I kind of get it though. Just as is most often the case with how government is run there is a large margin of error. Too many cooks spoil the soup kind of thing. The use of the word murky is apt when it comes to constitutional law.

All this is likely for nothing. Whether Trump had absolute authority to declassify the stolen documents, is not what will sink him. What is more likely is his constant shooting off his mouth both vocally and in his posts that will get him in the end. He is his own worst enemy. 

Primemuscle

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #232 on: November 22, 2023, 04:07:28 PM »
I'm just curious. At any point while creating this post that clearly supports your position that there are processes for declassification of documents depending on what the documents contain, did you think to yourself "Dos Equis will read this and finally understand."?  Or was it more like an interaction with Coach where you do it for the entertainment value as it's impossible to get past the brainwashing?

My guess and hope is Dos understands much more than he is willing to admit to. I am unsure as to why I respond and comment on their posts. Interchanges with Dos are both challenging and a waste of time because he will never concede anything. The similarity between him and Coach is they've dug their feet so far into the mud nothing can get them out. They will take these arguments to their deathbed. More and more I see Dos as parroting Trump's comments. This is not a good sign that he can still think independently and with an open mind. I guess this is how cult leaders such as Trump recruit their followers.

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #233 on: November 22, 2023, 04:57:52 PM »
I'm just curious. At any point while creating this post that clearly supports your position that there are processes for declassification of documents depending on what the documents contain, did you think to yourself "Dos Equis will read this and finally understand."?  Or was it more like an interaction with Coach where you do it for the entertainment value as it's impossible to get past the brainwashing?

It's good to know that I occupy that empty area of real estate between your ears. I don't even need to go into detail to know that whatever the left claims, it's always the opposite. "Detective"

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #234 on: November 22, 2023, 05:24:08 PM »
What makes James Risch and Louis Jacobson  authorities on the President's ability to declassify anything. Also, Louis qualified his opinion when he wrote "mostly true."
 

What context did James Risch leave out that was relevant to Trumps alleged actions?
Again, what gives you the idea that James Risch is an authority on these matters?
Broad does not mean absolute.
Who are these so-called experts?
Ultimately responsibility does not mean without any constraints. Nor does the President’s ability to appoint people to do these tasks for him mean there aren’t procedures for declassification. 
The definition of primarily is-  for the most part; mainly. This is not the same as saying the President’s  authority is absolute. It is quite the opposite.
Steven Aftergood is a critic of U.S. government secrecy policy. He directs the Federation of American Scientists project on Government Secrecy and is the author of the Federation publication Secrecy News. What about any of this qualifies him as an expert on the President’s abilities to do anything. What Stephen Aftergood says and believes has no relevancy to this matter.
Big whoop-de-do!
So, Robert F. Turneer is the associate director of the University of Virginia’s Center of National Security Law. Below is an outline of who they are and what they do. Why should anyone care what Robert F. Turner thinks or says with regards to the Presidents authority?

The center is the hub for national security law activities at the Law School, and cooperates with student groups, faculty members, the Public Service Center and Career Development, and outside organizations to coordinate speakers, events, summer and postgraduate employment, and pro bono opportunities.
Rewritten by multiple Presidents means exactly what?
Blog Lawfare?  So now we are going by what is said on a blog. Really?
It is  interesting that you included some of these comments in your response because they are not helpful for Trump’s defense in the classified documents charges against him.
It is not clear to me why you included Trump’s comments on November 8, 2023, in a rally in Hialeah. Was this an error?
Though out your response you’ve relied on comments from people who have no legal authority but rather just opinions. I kind of get it though. Just as is most often the case with how government is run there is a large margin of error. Too many cooks spoil the soup kind of thing. The use of the word murky is apt when it comes to constitutional law.

All this is likely for nothing. Whether Trump had absolute authority to declassify the stolen documents, is not what will sink him. What is more likely is his constant shooting off his mouth both vocally and in his posts that will get him in the end. He is his own worst enemy.

The issue we are addressing is whether the POTUS has the absolute authority to classify and declassify anything.  Since you like to cut and paste from Google in lieu of independent thinking, I tried to help you by providing the 30 second result of my Google search.  It didn't work.  It didn't work because you have TDS and confirmation bias.  But like I keep saying, you have plenty of company.     

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #235 on: November 22, 2023, 06:54:18 PM »
The issue we are addressing is whether the POTUS has the absolute authority to classify and declassify anything.  Since you like to cut and paste from Google in lieu of independent thinking, I tried to help you by providing the 30 second result of my Google search.  It didn't work.  It didn't work because you have TDS and confirmation bias.  But like I keep saying, you have plenty of company.   

Describe what you consider independent thinking. Is it drawing conclusions? Based on the content of your posts what you ‘independently’ think is not supported by facts, so what is it based on? Oh wait... what you did was to quote a bunch of folks with opinions that are clearly aligned with your foregone beliefs. If this is what you call independent thinking, you are mistaken.

If you wish to appear as an independent thinker, it behooves you not to so frequently regurgitate Trump’s exact words.

This is a definition of independent thinking I agree with: 'INDEPENDENT THINKING MEANS MAKING DECISIONS AND judgments for yourself using your personal ability to reason from the facts of reality.' Where and what are the facts in your post that substantiated the President's authority to classify and declassify documents?

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #236 on: November 22, 2023, 06:59:50 PM »
My guess and hope is Dos understands much more than he is willing to admit to. I am unsure as to why I respond and comment on their posts. Interchanges with Dos are both challenging and a waste of time because he will never concede anything. The similarity between him and Coach is they've dug their feet so far into the mud nothing can get them out. They will take these arguments to their deathbed. More and more I see Dos as parroting Trump's comments. This is not a good sign that he can still think independently and with an open mind. I guess this is how cult leaders such as Trump recruit their followers.

I was just curious. You spend a lot of effort composing your posts, only to have them dismissed out of hand or with a "use your common sense". I'm not judging, or asking in a negative way, I often do the same, I was just curious as to your ultimate goal. I've moved past the hope of getting most of them to concede the most basic facts regarding politics. I rarely converse with most as it is a waste of time, like I said, Coach is entertainment. It's fun to see just how far he will go down the rabbit hole of ignorance.

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #237 on: November 22, 2023, 07:17:46 PM »
I was just curious. You spend a lot of effort composing your posts, only to have them dismissed out of hand or with a "use your common sense". I'm not judging, or asking in a negative way, I often do the same, I was just curious as to your ultimate goal. I've moved past the hope of getting most of them to concede the most basic facts regarding politics. I rarely converse with most as it is a waste of time, like I said, Coach is entertainment. It's fun to see just how far he will go down the rabbit hole of ignorance.

I came across this video of you teaching firearms

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8yaNjcN/

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #238 on: November 22, 2023, 07:23:27 PM »
I came across this video of you teaching firearms

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8yaNjcN/

I'm sure it's funny. I can only imagine...

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #239 on: November 22, 2023, 07:57:16 PM »
I was just curious. You spend a lot of effort composing your posts, only to have them dismissed out of hand or with a "use your common sense". I'm not judging, or asking in a negative way, I often do the same, I was just curious as to your ultimate goal. I've moved past the hope of getting most of them to concede the most basic facts regarding politics. I rarely converse with most as it is a waste of time, like I said, Coach is entertainment. It's fun to see just how far he will go down the rabbit hole of ignorance.

I enjoy writing, always have. When I was in college, I took a theater arts class. I wrote weekly reviews for the little theater plays we saw. Attending local theatrical performances was the focus of the class. I also took business writing and creative writing, which was taught by a notable Oregon author, Craig Leslie. Oh and when not busy cleaning toilets, I wrote the specs for custodial equipment and supplies. I also wrote custodial training manuals which I believe the district still uses. 

Now that I am retired, I probably have too much time to waste. Communicating with the folks on Getbig can be frustrating, but also entertaining and challenging. Over the many years I've been a member here, I've met some very interesting folks and made a few friends. To be fair, I have also made some enemies.
When posting on Getbig ceases to amuse me, I will stop. Periodically, I take a break if the tone of the posts become too negative because that is a real downer. Some folks might find it interesting that I am not particularly political in my offline life. As is often advised, it is better to not talk about politics and religion with people.
 
I believe the Trump years have changed this. He managed to completely change the political landscape… even though he didn’t ‘drain the swamp’ or erect a massive wall between the U.S. and Mexico plus make them pay for it. In this respect he is not dissimilar than most other politicians who make enormous promises to their constituents when campaigning and then not follow through with them.

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #240 on: November 22, 2023, 08:16:43 PM »
I enjoy writing, always have. When I was in college, I took a theater arts class. I wrote weekly reviews for the little theater plays we saw. Attending local theatrical performances was the focus of the class. I also took business writing and creative writing, which was taught by a notable Oregon author, Craig Leslie. Oh and when not busy cleaning toilets, I wrote the specs for custodial equipment and supplies. I also wrote custodial training manuals which I believe the district still uses. 

Now that I am retired, I probably have too much time to waste. Communicating with the folks on Getbig can be frustrating, but also entertaining and challenging. Over the many years I've been a member here, I've met some very interesting folks and made a few friends. To be fair, I have also made some enemies.
When posting on Getbig ceases to amuse me, I will stop. Periodically, I take a break if the tone of the posts become too negative because that is a real downer. Some folks might find it interesting that I am not particularly political in my offline life. As is often advised, it is better to not talk about politics and religion with people.
 
I believe the Trump years have changed this. He managed to completely change the political landscape… even though he didn’t ‘drain the swamp’ or erect a massive wall between the U.S. and Mexico plus make them pay for it. In this respect he is not dissimilar than most other politicians who make enormous promises to their constituents when campaigning and then not follow through with them.

Thanks

As you mention, off line, I rarely talk politics or religion. In fact, it's almost a policy for me to not do either. On the occasion someone who is not a Trump fan opens up about his or her disgust, I might offer a few comments but I really don't care to continue it. Today, you are either preaching to the choir, or in a conversation that won't change anyone's mind whether it's politics or religion and may adversely affect the relationship.     

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #241 on: November 23, 2023, 09:58:10 AM »
Thanks

As you mention, off line, I rarely talk politics or religion. In fact, it's almost a policy for me to not do either. On the occasion someone who is not a Trump fan opens up about his or her disgust, I might offer a few comments but I really don't care to continue it. Today, you are either preaching to the choir, or in a conversation that won't change anyone's mind whether it's politics or religion and may adversely affect the relationship.     

My oldest and closest friend is a lifelong staunch Republican. She is a retired successful business owner, and a member and officer of the City Club of Portland which is primarily an organization of business owners. Although they describe themselves as a non-partisan organization, they tend to lean right. Today, she is an anti-Trump Republican and has been since he ran for office in 2016.

She, her partner, and I had only a few political discussions over the years, although they were never adversarial. One discussion I remember was about President Clinton. She was adamantly negative towards Clinton and strongly supported his being impeached following the Monica Lewinski affair. I maintained his personal life (the affair) was a matter to be resolved between Hilary and him and did not have bearing on his performance as President. She strongly supported President George W. Bush during that time.
I mention this to example Nancy’s strong moral and political views and how some lifelong Republicans feel about Donald Trump. My friend voted for Hilary Clinton in 2016 and President Biden in 2020 rather than elect someone like Trump into office. Without a doubt, she will not be voting for him as President in 2024 should he get that far.

Politics has greatly changed since Donald Trump came on the scene. He plays to and thus appeals to the far right and politically malcontent. He is a destructive influence on U.S. politics who surrounded himself with the worst of the worst and the weak who require someone to worship and who they feel best represent their negative viewpoints.

The U.S. is not currently in a good place, socially or politically. Thankfully everything cycles. I look forward to the time when most people 'woke up and smelled the coffee' and in doing so absolutely reject the likes of Donald Trump and his radical MAGA cult. When Trump falls, and he eventually will, he will fall hard as folks like him are apt to do.
 
 

Dos Equis

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #242 on: November 23, 2023, 10:26:02 AM »
Describe what you consider independent thinking. Is it drawing conclusions? Based on the content of your posts what you ‘independently’ think is not supported by facts, so what is it based on? Oh wait... what you did was to quote a bunch of folks with opinions that are clearly aligned with your foregone beliefs. If this is what you call independent thinking, you are mistaken.

If you wish to appear as an independent thinker, it behooves you not to so frequently regurgitate Trump’s exact words.

This is a definition of independent thinking I agree with: 'INDEPENDENT THINKING MEANS MAKING DECISIONS AND judgments for yourself using your personal ability to reason from the facts of reality.' Where and what are the facts in your post that substantiated the President's authority to classify and declassify documents?

The fact you need the internet (or me) to define independent thinking demonstrates that you don't understand and do not engage in independent thinking.

I provided my assessment of the absolute authority possessed by the POTUS to classify and declassify documents and information.  In response, rather than use your own common sense and independent thinking, you plugged some words in Google and posted what you found.  (To your credit, you did not plagiarize this time.)  In response, I plugged some words in Google and posted what I found.  Trying to speak your language.  Like I said, it did not work. 

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #243 on: November 23, 2023, 10:43:15 AM »
The fact you need the internet (or me) to define independent thinking demonstrates that you don't understand and do not engage in independent thinking.

I provided my assessment of the absolute authority possessed by the POTUS to classify and declassify documents and information.  In response, rather than use your own common sense and independent thinking, you plugged some words in Google and posted what you found.  (To your credit, you did not plagiarize this time.)  In response, I plugged some words in Google and posted what I found.  Trying to speak your language.  Like I said, it did not work. 

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

This is why I keep calling for open debates. They can’t engage in debate because I don’t think they really keep up on the issues. They learn as they go by googling their responses. They let google decipher what’s right and wrong

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #244 on: November 23, 2023, 10:46:29 AM »
This is why I keep calling for open debates. They can’t engage in debate because I don’t think they really keep up on the issues. They learn as they go by googling their responses. They let google decipher what’s right and wrong

You are absolutely right.  I think they actually get offended when they read or hear things that contradict their worldview.  No way would they ever have a live debate or discussion with you.

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #245 on: November 23, 2023, 10:49:31 AM »
The fact you need the internet (or me) to define independent thinking demonstrates that you don't understand and do not engage in independent thinking.

I provided my assessment of the absolute authority possessed by the POTUS to classify and declassify documents and information.  In response, rather than use your own common sense and independent thinking, you plugged some words in Google and posted what you found.  (To your credit, you did not plagiarize this time.)  In response, I plugged some words in Google and posted what I found.  Trying to speak your language.  Like I said, it did not work. 

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as well. Don't eat too much... oh what the heck, eat all you want.

Primemuscle

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #246 on: November 23, 2023, 10:54:46 AM »
This is why I keep calling for open debates. They can’t engage in debate because I don’t think they really keep up on the issues. They learn as they go by googling their responses. They let google decipher what’s right and wrong

In keeping with the spirit of the day, Happy Thanksgiving to you from all of us (they) whoever they are.

Just curios, can you explain for me and them, the logistics of this 'open debate' you frequently mention? Are you suggesting a Zoom meeting perhaps?

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #247 on: November 23, 2023, 11:06:13 AM »
In keeping with the spirit of the day, Happy Thanksgiving to you from all of us (they) whoever they are.

Just curios, can you explain for me and them, the logistics of this 'open debate' you frequently mention? Are you suggesting a Zoom meeting perhaps?

I was listening to Sam Harris being interviewed. Sam has a PhD in Neuroscience and atheist who often debates people on his podcast as well as colleges. He destroyed William Lane Criag and Ben Shapiro on religion. He was asked why he wouldn't have Alex Jones or Trump on his show, even though he has many people he disagrees with on it. He said mainly because they would spew forth so much BS that there wouldn't be enough time in the world to dissect each lie or misinformation. There is simply no way to debate with disingenuous bad actors. There is no value in it for him or the audience.

Primemuscle

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #248 on: November 23, 2023, 11:15:49 AM »
You are absolutely right.  I think they actually get offended when they read or hear things that contradict their worldview.  No way would they ever have a live debate or discussion with you.

Like Coach, you too frequently speak of 'they' as if there is some other species of human called, they. In my experience there is no 'they', meaning one unique unit or group of people with absolute commonality, but a collection for people with differing and occasionally similar views on various subjects. At this point as far as we know there is no us versus them like in some of those ‘60’s science fiction films i.e., 1967s 'They Came from Beyond Space' or the 1990 - 1991 series, 'They Came from Outer Space.'

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Re: More classified documents found
« Reply #249 on: November 23, 2023, 11:22:50 AM »
I was listening to Sam Harris being interviewed. Sam has a PhD in Neuroscience and atheist who often debates people on his podcast as well as colleges. He destroyed William Lane Criag and Ben Shapiro on religion. He was asked why he wouldn't have Alex Jones or Trump on his show, even though he has many people he disagrees with on it. He said mainly because they would spew forth so much BS that there wouldn't be enough time in the world to dissect each lie or misinformation. There is simply no way to debate with disingenuous bad actors. There is no value in it for him or the audience.

Sam Harris is right on with regards to certain people. Debating these folks is a total waste of time. If I were to debate Alex Jones, would I end up buying 'The My Pillow?' Is he that persuasive? He seems like a nutcase to me. I believe it is best to avoid debating insane people because most of them have lost the ability to think and act rationally.